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| Thread: ~ Heroes 6 patch 1.7 - Discussion thread ~ |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV |
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 05, 2012 10:34 AM |
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My favorite element of the lore are the Dragon Gods. But imo they should be used more in the game. Instead they take the form of omnipresent "belive-me-they-do-exist-altough-nobody-has-seen-them! enities. Well I know that is what "gods" usually do, but because their form was hinted in various pieces of art I see no reason to not make them physically present in-game.
Well, there is a reasoning behind that. According to the Compendium, the Gods are locked out of the physical realm to prevent another War of Creation. The War of Creation nearly destroyed all of creation. To prevent such an attempt from ever happening again, Urgash was locked inside the Core of Ashan and Creation was devided into the physical and the spiritual realm. The Elemental Gods were locked into the spiritual realm and Asha herself wove herself into a cocoon and fell into a regenerative coma.
From inside the Spiritual Realm, the Gods can adjust the flow of magic a little and appear to believers in prophetic dreams and revalations, which isn't much and they are plotting/waiting for a chance to return. And even this has only been possible since the Seventh Dragon has pierced the barrier between the realms.
So there are those who have seen and/or communicated with the Gods, but they cannot manifest any of their power into the physical realm.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted October 05, 2012 11:29 AM |
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The Dragon Gods thing was a bad idea, it makes H6 lore copy of the Warcraft one.
,,Copying'', or rather ,,taking inspiration" is not always a bad thing. As somebody said before, it's hard to create something new in the fantasy genre. And, as long as there are dragons involved, it's good enough for me 
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Well, there is a reasoning behind that. According to the Compendium, the Gods are locked out of the physical realm to prevent another War of Creation...
Thanks for the explanation, I didn't read to much of the lore past the things that were presented in the games. And I'm getting the idea, that the lore's potential isn't used properly, and many of the most interesting events are not presented in the games...
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 05, 2012 11:35 AM |
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Also, likening Ashanian Dragon-Gods to the Azerothian Dragon Aspects is a gross, gross misuse and misunderstanding of either lores.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 05, 2012 11:39 AM |
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i have never played the game that heroes is supposed to copy. but it's kinda cool the new lore, and easier to follow. still dragons where a trademark of champion creatures in heroes and seeing that now they are gods and not usable it's kind of strange. still they have done really good with the current champions i must say.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 05, 2012 11:39 AM |
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Wanting to torture, maim or otherwise kill the rest of Ashan counts for evil I'd think. You might argue that demons might not have a choice in the matter because they were created for this purpose but the end result is about the same. That may not necessarily be 100% true for every one of its denizens(only Erwan would know) but so far they look more black than grey.
I personally don't like everything having an explanation, that takes the mystery out of the setting. But if you bother to do it you might as well find something more elegant or less forced at least. The wizard explanation sounds more of a lazy way out than anything.
I disagree a lot. I mean, Urgash has something to offer, hasn't he? Being respawned as a Succubus/Incubus doesn't seem that bad, especially in comparison with the undead way. Sure, they want to destroy the creation of order, but they have their own way. I mean, Urgash's circle of Life and Death seems to be a lot, well, more FUN, don't you think? I mean, you remember the little poem in the Inferno campaign: "Roll the dice of destiny as if you cannot die. Leave your fate to Urgash the day your luck runs dry."
The wizard explanation is actually rather stunning. I mean, think about it. Think about how easily the Wizards make what we would call "genetic experiments", creating, well, monstrosities, actually. Sharkies are a "gift"(!); the Orcs are the result of a mix of humans and demons...
I mean - isn't that EVIL? Especially considering the fate of the Orcs after doing what they were supposed to? I absolutely LIKE this characterization of the (powerful) wielders of magic as unscrupulous "scientists" without any conscience: it all sounds like it was something straight out of the experimental institutes of Nationalsocialism. The end absolutely justifies the means.
No wonder then, that the Wizards spawned Necromancy.
So the wizards are an absolutely ruthless and pragmatic faction that can deliver any kind of character you want.
I also think, that these experiments are quite ... Urgashly - mixing races is pretty chaotic, imo, and if it was me, I'd create the opposite of the Necros as well as a race: if you consider regular wizards being strictly neutral (as in, no taboos, ultra-pragmatic), Necros are the order "sect" of the Wizards, so what about a chaos sect? Shapeshifters, for example, as a new crown of creation ... the ultimate genetic goal.
I mean, let's face it - there are not so many possible ways to create a fantasy universe that allows all the things. The old Heroes universe is like a fantasy bubble embedded in a Science Fiction environment - certainly a possibility, but obviously there is a strong temptation to let effects of that environment intrude: the Forge has been something like a logical consequence. In the old universe you can ALWAYS ask whether this or that seemingly magical artifact isn't actually a piece of advanced technology which has its own charm, since it creates an uncertainty - that comes with its own dangers, though.
As with everything, I don't think the universe as such is the decisive factor. The lore is just the ground, but what grows from it, that's the interesting thing here, and what we miss are interesting stories and heroes with more individual and common stories that do not decide the fate of the whole realm, but tell a good story. For example, if you think about Markal in Heroes 5 - that guy had a lot of "story potential" that has been wasted.
Also, the Wizards have a lot of potential - Clash of Heroes's "villain"'s story, slightly altered, could just as well be told from the villain's point of view.
So MY impression is simply, that the "environment" is offering a lot of interesting possibilities - enough, at least -, but that the stories they tell us are told on a somewhat too "epic" level.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 05, 2012 11:41 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 12:04, 05 Oct 2012.
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It kinda reminds me of the Silmarillion creation lore.
Ainulindalė
There are some key differences but it comes close.
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So the wizards are an absolutely ruthless and pragmatic faction that can deliver any kind of character you want.
No I quite like the wizards being like that. I like it in cases like the sharkmen, I just think that it is becoming an overused explanation.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted October 05, 2012 01:13 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 13:15, 05 Oct 2012.
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I think that the wizards making their magic experiments is a really nice idea coming from the devs that explains many types of creatures in the universe. I mean, it may be the type of explanation that makes things easier and disables any kind of limitations, but thanks to the wizards, we have so many interesting creatures to choose from So be them evil or not, we have to thank them. And usually it's hard to explain why, for instance, a centaur was born. Be it gods influence, a curse or a natural process.
Btw, I wonder why any kind of wizard didn't thought of creating were- type of creatures. You know werewolves, were-bears, were-leopoards etc. I wonder how each Falcon dutchy having it's own ,,were-'' special unit would play out (werewolves, even were-eagles, yeah!). Shape-shifters are my kind of thing (still nobody said that they should be shape-shifters, for them to be actual creatures works even better for me). I don't quite remember if it was mentioned in the lore. Still, I now that in Heroes franchise such creatures were never present, and some fans would like to keep it that way...
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 05, 2012 02:36 PM |
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Well, true to what I wrote, I was more thinking along the lines of a FACTION of shape-shifters, like the Necros (and their sworn enemies). Might be a different Aspect of Urgash, kind of an alternative respawning cycle or something like that.
What I'm missing story-wise are good fallen-angel stories. You know the idea: Star Wars, Darth Vader, fallen Yedi Knight. While the series starts with the FACT, they later decided - interestingly enough - to tell the story of how he came to fall. Or the oldest of them all - Satan. Always interesting to see the gradual "darkening" of a character, once an event or occurence is putting people between a rock and a hard place - or they may just be tempted and think they can "cope and control".
The "problem" is the idea of having "connected" campaigns, that is, ONE STORY. I find that quite unnecessary.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 05, 2012 02:49 PM |
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Maybe not but part of the campaign fun is unlocking new missions once the primary stories have been told. I really liked that in earlier heroes and I was disappointed when I finished the H4 missions and nothing was unlocked. The shadow of death campaign was most enjoyable for this reason, seeing the results of the first four campaigns in rise of the necromancer To Sandro it was just a background for his story that had only just begun to unfold.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 05, 2012 03:02 PM |
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I feel for both JJ's and Elvin's ideas.
No, interconnectedness is not necesary for a good story. And certainly if you're only doing a campaign for only one faction.
On the other hand, there is equal merit to what Elvin says. The progression through a campaign gives one a sense of fullfilment and achievement. Something which is heightened when one story leads to another.
In that regard, Heroes V vanilla did not to shabby with the campaign. Certainly the story itself was poorly. However, the way the stories influencend each other and how one thing led to another was done reasonably well.
The key, I think, is to have stories that can stand on their own, interconnect. On their own, the stories should make sense and cover their own plot. With the addition that all the stories follow a certain chain of events, which enhances the entirety. And because all stories can stand on their own, one could play with order the stories are presented to make it more interesting.
Which is where Heroes 6 went wrong. Where on the one hand, the stories itself still weren't much to write home about, they were too interconnected. They did not stand on their own well enough and only made some sense in the entirety.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 05, 2012 03:42 PM |
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The H6 campaign should have had a H3 progression system.
Prologue
Act 1: Stronghold, Sanctuary
Act 2: Inferno, Necropolis
Act 3: Haven
Epilogue
Of course, there would have to be some story modifications but that's good, because H6 had a good story layed out like a total MESS.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted October 05, 2012 05:10 PM |
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The Dragon Gods thing was a bad idea, it makes H6 lore copy of the Warcraft one. There are dragon gods creators of the world there, and water, fire and etc dragon. + the bad dragon, brother of the creator dragon. Its all the same... Only - the warcraft story is better made, since its not a cheap copy like the H5 and after one.
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Sadly Ubisoft can not think alone.
This is very, very sad. H's lore was so more original in the past.
Ooo. so the bad warhammer copy made one thing original... o wait no it did not.. dragon based gods were even befor.. sorry..
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The H6 campaign should have had a H3 progression system.
Prologue
Act 1: Stronghold, Sanctuary
Act 2: Inferno, Necropolis
Act 3: Haven
Epilogue
Of course, there would have to be some story modifications but that's good, because H6 had a good story layed out like a total MESS.
The best way would be to enable individual maps after you finsished all those that were befor them. That would atleast give an idea about time. Not even limit yourself to one faction.. just stick to how the original chronology of the story was
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Demonge
Known Hero
more than meets the eyes
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posted October 08, 2012 01:05 PM |
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Hi, I've decided to come back to H6 I left at the time of 1.5.1 and I have one question : is the catapult skill line worth it now?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 08, 2012 01:12 PM |
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Hi, I've decided to come back to H6 I left at the time of 1.5.1 and I have one question : is the catapult skill line worth it now?
Not really. First level does more structure damage and poisoned reserves have about tripled the damage but what is the point if you cannot target the catapult manually..
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Demonge
Known Hero
more than meets the eyes
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posted October 08, 2012 01:18 PM |
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Indeed. Yet the damage increase is at least a good thing for a start. Thanks.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 08, 2012 03:34 PM |
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Quote:
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Hi, I've decided to come back to H6 I left at the time of 1.5.1 and I have one question : is the catapult skill line worth it now?
Not really. First level does more structure damage and poisoned reserves have about tripled the damage but what is the point if you cannot target the catapult manually..
I think everyone misses manual catapult aiming.
And I highly doubt that the devs are unaware of this. The question remains how much of the core-mechanics need to be adapted to make this possible and wether that is worth the effort.
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KingImp
Famous Hero
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posted October 08, 2012 05:30 PM |
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Edited by KingImp at 17:31, 08 Oct 2012.
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I think everyone misses manual catapult aiming.
And I highly doubt that the devs are unaware of this.
If they are somehow unaware, then that would truly prove how clueless they really are. A lot of people have only been screaming for this change since the beta.
How can they have it in H5 and not realize it's missing in H6?
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Thanatoeil
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 08, 2012 06:35 PM |
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I think everyone misses manual catapult aiming.
And I highly doubt that the devs are unaware of this.
On the other hand, all creatures are able to inflict damages to structures.
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