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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 27, 2013 12:33 AM |
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minion:
I understand that you want that, but is wanting something a sufficient criterion for rights? If I wanted no one to kick rocks, would rocks have rights?
Anyway, I don't want animals to suffer either, but I don't believe in animal rights. To want something but to not use force (or let others use force) to achieve it is a perfectly consistent position.
master_learn:
Diseases are the problem of the person who has sex with the animal. If they want to risk it, it’s up to them. As for group bestiality, I don't see any problem with it. They're just like orgies are now.
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Eccentric Opinion
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted April 27, 2013 07:05 AM |
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Quote:
Diseases are the problem of the person who has sex with the animal. If they want to risk it, it’s up to them.
This is false,because the diseases nowadays are spread throughout many people,thus becoming epidemy and dangerous for society.
Let me put it in another perspective:
I know there are many risks involved in our actions every day.
If a person takes a risk and he fails,in many cases the result is upon him only.
But when he takes a risk,which includes groups of people,then the risk is spread through the groups,becoming dangerous risk for the society itself.
With the new orgies with animals you are comfortable with,the risks are becoming higher as we speak.
Think over these questions:
1.Can you see clearly what risks are involved in bestiality?
2.Can you prevent most/all of them for yourself?
3.Are you familiar with the concept of minimizing the risk?
4.Can you minimize most/all of them for yourself?
5.Can you teach others how to minimize their risks?
6.What should the government do to minimize the risks?
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted April 27, 2013 07:27 AM |
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Mvass:
Rights are sort of entirely based off of wants, Mvass. You do not want to be silenced, so you demand the freedom of speech. You do not want to be a slave, so you demand the right to be protected from slavery. You do not want to be an ass to animals and torture them as well as eat them (because that makes you feel a bit icky) so you demand that they have the right to be treated humanely before being butchered. If you really really wanted to, you could demand that rocks have rights... and then suffer economic collapse from the weight of your country's collective stupidity if they accept it (your economy would shatter so fast once you give rights to inanimate objects it would not be funny). You do not "need" rights, you just like to have them.
As I stated earlier in this thread, the universe has no set "Rules" beyond the ones we create. No actual non-physical limits exist except inside our heads. In other words, laws and rights only exist because we chose to believe they exist and are willing to enforce them. So there is no "need" for consistency in laws, especially not to bend to an individual's sense of "fairness," which also does not exist except in the human mind. So is it "fair" or "consistent" that animals can be killed but not sodomized? Most likely not. Do I or anyone else have to actually care? Not really, no. As the existence laws and rights depends entirely on us humans and our will, we can chose to assign values (both positive and negative) to certain actions and they do not have to be "Consistent" in the eyes of everyone (and likely are not).
Can the laws be changed to align themselves with your ideals? Sure. Make people care instead of infuriating them with the same complaint over and over and you could make a social revolution. Is it likely? Pfffffft. That would be a no, my good sir.  Good luck to you.
Elodin:
Take a chill pill bro. Society will not explode because some bros got to hackn' and whackn' in the closet. Same if a dude and his dog go at it. It hasn't ended yet, after all, and both are happening whether or not they are legal.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 27, 2013 09:02 AM |
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Quote:
I want to eat meat but prevent needless cruelty to animals. There is something about that that makes me a fool apparently according to JJ, but it is ok. I can live with that.
The comparison of two different things is the problem.
You WANT to eat meat (because it's tasty and you wouldn't want to miss it), and because of that you are prepared to KILL an animal (or, hypocritically, buy meat from someone who does the dirty work for you). Then, hypocritically, you come with a, "ah, but I don't want to have my meat suffer needlessly".
Another guy WANTS to have some kind of sexual relationship with an animal that YOU would want to kill (but hopefully painlessly), and you would call THAT cruelty to animals? Oh, wait. NEEDLESS cruelty to animals.
Now keep further in mind that cruelty against animals is something that is considered no problem whatsoever, when there is an "important" excuse. Whales, for example are TORTURED by sonar which seems to be the main culprits when it comes to whales stranding and dying. Low frequency sonar is especially bad. But, heck, who cares? No, wait, that's needFUL cruelty then.
Do you really think it helps the animal cause when you make such an IDIOTIC law?
As a reminder, the production of meat is seven times more "inefficient" than farming. Eating meat COSTS LIFE.
And in case you wonder: I'm NO vegetarian (used to be one in the past).
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted April 27, 2013 09:46 AM |
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Our bodies also require animal protein thus it is natural and nothing wrong in eating meat. But cruelty is another thing altogether.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 27, 2013 09:57 AM |
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Quote:
As a reminder, the production of meat is seven times more "inefficient" than farming. Eating meat COSTS LIFE.
Do you have a link to that study? I wonder if it's some economist's math work on paper or does it put into consideration all the variables. What if you live in a village by the rocky mountains raising goats for example, what about countries that are mainly deserts or islands?
The generality of the statement makes me think it's very unlikely the study takes these into account.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 27, 2013 10:22 AM |
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master_learn:
People are much more likely to get diseases from other people. Does that mean you shouldn't be allowed to be around someone who has the flu, have sex with someone who has HIV, or travel to a country where infectious disease is more common? Probably not. And if disease is the only objection to bestiality, suppose that you take your pet to the veterinarian, they look over it, and they diagnose it as being sufficiently clean for safe (disease-free) sex. Should bestiality be allowed if the animal is proven to be clean? Or do you have some additional problem with it?
gnomes:
I agree completely that the universe has no moral rules beyond those created by humans. Before I address your points, I have a question: when two people want opposite things, how do you decide what the rule should be?
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Eccentric Opinion
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted April 27, 2013 12:18 PM |
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mvass,if you don't have the intention of answering my reasonable and relevant questions about bestiality,I may wish you luck just like gnomes did before me-no hard feelings,ok?
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 27, 2013 12:27 PM |
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master_learn:
The burden of proof is on the side that wants to make it illegal. Liberty is the default state.
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Eccentric Opinion
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shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 27, 2013 02:49 PM |
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Quote:
gnomes:
I agree completely that the universe has no moral rules beyond those created by humans. Before I address your points, I have a question: when two people want opposite things, how do you decide what the rule should be?
I can field this one.
The one that does the least harm. Raping animals is not cool.
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Youtube has terminated my account without reason.
Please express why it should be reinstated on
Twitter.
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Gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted April 27, 2013 06:23 PM |
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Quote:
gnomes:
I agree completely that the universe has no moral rules beyond those created by humans. Before I address your points, I have a question: when two people want opposite things, how do you decide what the rule should be?
Not even the one that causes the least harm, sorry Shy. It is the one with the most support and conviction, because that is the one that is most likely to be enforced. Of course, if both opinions are minorities or the viewpoint is not harmful (in an economic and social level) to a culture, then they are perfectly able to make a viable sub-culture that lives contrary to the societal norm (vegetarians, vegans and the like). They are also able to advocate their way of life. What they are not able to do is force societies to conform to a standard that they do not agree to/ care about.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 27, 2013 06:30 PM |
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Quote:
Raping animals is not cool.
Some folks that are into animals disagree with you.
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted April 27, 2013 06:58 PM |
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Some folks that are in animals disagree with you.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 27, 2013 07:19 PM |
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LOL, I see what you did there, you sneaky man you.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted April 27, 2013 08:33 PM |
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Quote:
Some folks that are in animals disagree with you.
Those that are in animals cannot agree or disagree.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 28, 2013 12:11 AM |
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Shyranis:
How do you determine what "least harm" is? Also, how do you determine what should be considered as "harmed"? Are all humans included? Dogs? Mosquitoes?
gnomes:
The one with the most support and conviction? A hundred years ago, lynching black people had a lot of support in the South. And forbidding interracial marriage had even more support. Elsewhere, Germans voted the Nazis into office.
If "what the law should be" is "anything the majority wants enough" then that justifies many things you probably don't think are justified.
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 28, 2013 12:50 AM |
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Quote:
The one with the most support and conviction? A hundred years ago, lynching black people had a lot of support in the South. And forbidding interracial marriage had even more support. Elsewhere, Germans voted the Nazis into office.
If "what the law should be" is "anything the majority wants enough" then that justifies many things you probably don't think are justified.
He is not talking about justification, he is talking about REALITY. When Nazis were in power, they indeed made the laws, and had you been there, it wouldn't mean a lot to them if you stood there pointing your finger at them shouting "it's not fair."
His paragraph of course, isn't leading to your oversimplification of "let it be the jungle rule of majority then." He is creating a contrast to show you that you are lost in a virtual world of abstract rules. But I guess to get that through your head is harder than splitting the atom.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 28, 2013 01:08 AM |
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If your interpretation of gnomes's post is correct, his post wasn't a response to my question. I asked, "How do you decide what the rule should be?", not "How are rules made?" It's true that the Nazis made the laws when they were in power, but if those laws were morally wrong, there is some standard of right and wrong that is independent of majority rule. It's true that majority rule (or, more accurately, rule by whoever is most powerful, which sometimes is the majority) often determines what the law is, but that's irrelevant to the question.
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Eccentric Opinion
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted April 28, 2013 03:54 AM |
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Mvass:
I answered your question, and I will not change my answer because you use failures in the system from the past. I did make sure to point out that there are ways for it to change (the creation of sub-cultures and just plain societal shift), but that is how I believe that it is and should be run. (Note: I never claimed the system would be perfect, because I'm not a blind optimist or ideologist.) Now, do you have anything to say to that beyond nazis/ other hate groups or acts that are now considered discriminatory hate crimes?
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 28, 2013 06:52 AM |
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If racist whites want to kill blacks, or Nazis want to kill Jews, forming subcultures won't help them, unless they form groups powerful enough to defend themselves. But then that could lead to violent conflict or potentially even civil war, which undermines the purpose of having laws in the first place.
The point is, if you leave it to democracy, you can easily get atrocities (and generally bad policy even more often), and there's no standard by which one can even decide what the majority should prefer. It's extremely arbitrary.
To say that things like the Holocaust merely make majority rule "not perfect" is a huge understatement. Fortunately, there are better metrics than majority rule.
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Eccentric Opinion
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This thread is pages long: 
