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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 30, 2012 03:50 AM |
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...?
Children aren't slaves. They're people with temporarily low decision-making capacity, and so they don't have full rights, but they're not property.
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Eccentric Opinion
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted November 30, 2012 04:11 AM |
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Which is easy to claim when no one here identifies himself or herself as a child. Seriously though, it may be so for the majority of children, but the children which it isn't like that for still suffers under the limitation defined by this single variable, their age.
Many adults are worse at decision making than many children. Obviously it's not the majority, but that shouldn't allow such laziness.
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Living time backwards
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted November 30, 2012 04:30 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 05:31, 30 Nov 2012.
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So you make a distinction between slaves to nature and slaves to humans?
Do you know what a metaphore is?
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The adopted children question was highly relevant as I'm sure you'll notice.
Relevant in a thread about animal rights\Bestiality\Domestic Animals.
Also, you dont go on buying orphans in a slave market, at least not in the so called "Developed" countries, but I might be wrong.
No, adopted children, unlike dogs or cats or chimps, are not adopted for pleasure or because they look cute, at least I dont think so.
You are just throwing another strawman by the way. You should stop with the orphan-children BS and get back to animals.
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I couldn't have said it better myself Elvin. Some people are just strange.
Indeed.
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Yes, there are. I linked this before on a different subject, it is much more relevant here:
Robert Sapolsky
Actually, that video prooves my assertion. Animals are not capable of empathy towards humans. I said "or at least towards humans".
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Besides, you are in a paradox. You say we are different from animals because we have the ability to feel empathy and afterwards you blame people for actually feeling that empathy!
And your ponint is? Empathy towards animals is OK, pushing it over the limit and creating special treatments for them is absurd and pathetic.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 30, 2012 07:42 AM |
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I said "or at least towards humans"
Yes and if you notice i only quoted the part of the sentence that you were wrong about and left that part out. Empathy is putting yourself in somebody's shoes, imagining you are them (and success in that up to a point). Animals of course can't to that with humans because they don't have the required brain functions. They are not capable of that kind of abstraction. That doesn't mean they have no emotions at all. You seem to see everything in chunks of black and white. As that video also shows, emotions, (and later even moral codes) evolved overtime, they are none in low level organisms like insects or jellyfish and they seem to start somewhere in high level mammals. A dog's love for his owner is of course not as sophisticated as, say, a man who's platonically in love but a dog doesn't see his owner just as the food bringer like you claim neither. If you dig will you find instinctive stuff at the root of it? Sure, and so will you in the root of a (human) mother's love towards her children, so what?
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And your point is? Empathy towards animals is OK, pushing it over the limit and creating special treatments for them is absurd and pathetic
A very generous definition of special treatment: Not torturing them! We're not talking about some crazy cat lady who left her cats 10 million dollars in the will, we are talking about sadistic behavior (sex subject is a little more of a gray area, actually in this topic everything is despite your chunks of black and white), something clinically defined as not being healthy and being treated as disease.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 30, 2012 09:35 AM |
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Animals are not capable of empathy towards humans.
You would be surprised. Animals and especially dogs can create strong bonds and will respond when they see their master hurt or in danger. It goes beyond simple obedience, they care.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted November 30, 2012 09:38 AM |
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they care.
For their next meal, I strongly doubt that a dogs mind goes beyond food, and protecting the thing that which brings the food.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 30, 2012 09:50 AM |
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It goes beyond simple obedience, they care
Yes, and i didn't say they didn't. Empathy is not caring (or not only caring). It is to imagine yourself as the person or creature you empathize with. When dogs care what about what happens to a person they don't think they are like you, they think you are like them.
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Invictus7
Adventuring Hero
Lurking About...
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posted November 30, 2012 10:42 AM |
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I was surprised to hear that bestiality was being banned in Germany only for the fact that I had no idea it was legal in the first place. I have skimmed this thread and found some, in my opinion, rather disturbing comments. That's beside the point though. I have two links which may, at least, cast some doubt on the fact that dogs are "simple" emotionally and that their loyalty only extends to the person that feeds them.
A story of a dog who waited everyday for its owner 9 years after his death
A study which found that dogs approached strangers when they were crying.
These are certainly not definitive but they are perhaps enough to disprove some generalisations made about animals.
Why is it that humans are the only ones who should be considered when making laws, is it just because we are the ones who write them? In that case, only the party or species who writes law has rights, and only their "benefits" should be considered. Hmmm 
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Question Convention
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 30, 2012 12:36 PM |
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People who say pets are not capable of empathy towards humans fill in one of next category:
a) They never had a pet
b) They had a pet but their lack of empathy is contagious to pet
c) They had a pet with introspective behavior
d) Seraphim
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Era II mods and utilities
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 30, 2012 12:55 PM |
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People who say pets are not capable of empathy towards humans fill in one of next category:
a) They never had a pet
b) They had a pet but their lack of empathy is contagious to pet
c) They had a pet with introspective behavior
d) Seraphim
I think you take the term very loosely. Empathy is something even humans learn most of the time. For example among novelists only the ones considered genius can fully relate to their characters of different gender, period or ideology. Empathy (in the sense i use) requires sophisticated abstraction. Dogs (not so sure about cats sometimes), care for the person they're with, they love him/her, they get jealous of him/her, they miss him/her. But to say they empathize with them is anthropomorphising them.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted November 30, 2012 01:08 PM |
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Copy a movie, you live in mad max. Which you want take a dog or a cat? When cat can bring you a mouse. Dog can warn of mad rape! ..
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 30, 2012 01:30 PM |
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Empathy is the capacity to recognize feelings that are being experienced by another sentient being. But really.. semantics, I think we all know what the point was about.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 30, 2012 01:37 PM |
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Edited by artu at 13:38, 30 Nov 2012.
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Empathy is the capacity to recognize feelings that are being experienced by another sentient being. But really.. semantics, I think we all know what the point was about.
em·pa·thy
[em-puh-thee]
noun
1.
the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.
2.
the imaginative ascribing to an object, as a natural object or work of art, feelings or attitudes present in oneself: By means of empathy, a great painting becomes a mirror of the self.
Besides, from the beginning i was using the term referring to the comments on the Robert Sapolsky video.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted November 30, 2012 01:50 PM |
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Because crying. The God meant man can make a house and write here. No emotional life!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 30, 2012 01:58 PM |
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I was surprised to hear that bestiality was being banned in Germany only for the fact that I had no idea it was legal in the first place.
Just for correction: There IS a law on bestiality (cruelty to animals), and the German Legislative will debate a suggested AMENDMENT to include yet again the sex stuff.
A political boon, probably based on the fact that it doesn't seem possible politically to ban the religiously motivated cruelty of some religious groups against animals.
So this is EXCLUSIVELY about sex with animals, since the rest is ruled by law anyway, which means that most of the discussion is off-topic anyway.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 30, 2012 02:37 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 14:39, 30 Nov 2012.
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Do you know what a metaphore is?
So the answer is no, there's not a distinction between slaves to nature and slaves to humans? So then the next question aries: are slaves always property?
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No, adopted children, unlike dogs or cats or chimps, are not adopted for pleasure or because they look cute, at least I dont think so.
There are certainly children that are bought and sold for pleasure.
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You are just throwing another strawman by the way. You should stop with the orphan-children BS and get back to animals.
Do you know what a metaphore is?
Do you know what an animal is?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Invictus7
Adventuring Hero
Lurking About...
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posted November 30, 2012 02:43 PM |
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There are certainly children that are bought and sold for pleasure.
Yes, but isn't that illegal?
@JJ thanks for clarifying. I was under the impression that bestiality means sex with animals. Clearly it has a broader meaning.
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Question Convention
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted November 30, 2012 04:10 PM |
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...You do know why dogs stick to their "owners" right? Not because of love or compassion or cakes but because there are "Free" meals from the owner. The dog "Protects" the "owner" in return from the free food....
Seraphim...you are so wrong with this statement, I just can't find words for it.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted November 30, 2012 04:15 PM |
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Quote:
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Animals are not capable of empathy towards humans.
You would be surprised. Animals and especially dogs can create strong bonds and will respond when they see their master hurt or in danger. It goes beyond simple obedience, they care.
There are several reports of non-human beings caring for humans without any intrinsic master/obedient bond in the first place. Meaning wild animals taking care or caring for humans.
Also these reports goes beyond earlier examples which could be explained by an evolutionary response to certain sounds, or habitual behavior.
It's in fact a bit ridiculous to say non-human beings have no empathy considering how powerful an evolutionary trait it is, and considering humans aren't the only social animals who're social towards other species as well.
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Seraphim...you are so wrong with this statement, I just can't find words for it.
To be fair, there are many different kinds of dog-human relationships out there. Certainly some will fall under this category and others won't. It's not a matter where you can just generalize for every single case. Heck it's next to impossible to say anything about the majority of cases as well, because we've no idea if our own life with our pet(s) reflects the majority or is an odd case.
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Living time backwards
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 30, 2012 04:35 PM |
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I'd imagine that some level of empathy would be evolutionarily beneficial for social pack animals.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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