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| Thread: Unit Upgrades |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted January 06, 2013 09:02 PM |
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Unit Upgrades
This is a game-design and philosophical question at the same time and I would like to hear your opinions on it.
The question is: are upgrades interesting enough to be inside the game? Do they bring enough gameplay value to be worth it to be inside the game?
My personal answer is NO, and I will quickly explain my train of thought by analysing the 3 games I have played in the series: Heroes 3, 4, and 5 (Heroes 6 not played yet).
In Heroes 3 all basic units were bland. This meant with very few exceptions that they did not have any ability and their stats were sub-par. Once upgraded they got a good stat boost as well as an interesting ability. This meant that from a strategic point of view you had to choose which unit to upgrade first for maximum efficiency while the rest of the units were more like fodder, or simple damage dealers. To me this can be easily replaced with a much more interesting choice: If units come with their upgrades from the get-go then the strategic choice will be which unit I get first.
Heroes 5 added alternate upgrades. On paper this sounds cool. But is it? There were *some* situations with some units where there really was a choice between the two, but among 100+ units only a few had this privilege. Most of the time there was either a better choice 98% of the time and for the rest the differences weren't really noticeable. I believe that if you have a cool idea for a type of unit, and then realize that it would be awesome to have a relatively similar unit with another ability, why not make 2 different units? ... in different castles... This improves diversity without hogging the game with 3 types of elves/dwarves/dragons per tier and town.
In strategy game design usually designers try to remove redundancies and to make each unit introduced worthy to be in the game by giving it unique strengths and weaknesses as well as a well defined purpose in the game. Heroes 4 did away with upgrades. Units came with t
heir out of the box abilities. To me this follows the value of a strategy game: keeping it simple, clean and powerful. I cannot say I am a fan of the exclusive unit choices, but I totally like the fact that most units in the game are pretty unique on their own.
Lastly, one more problem with upgrades is the problem of mixing stacks. Recruiting units from towns with no upgraded dwelling is a pain as well as transferring them to the main hero.
Summing up, I believe the upgrade system of HoMM is a failure. Alternate upgrades add a very small amount of extra strategic depth while exacerbating the redundancy problem. In my opinion a much more appropriate design for a strategy game would be the choice of which units to get first. I'm not necessarily saying the choice must be exclusive like in H4, but it the build order system seems a lot more solid than the simple "build all basic buildings - upgrade what you like after".
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 06, 2013 10:05 PM |
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Like this post! 
I agree that they give too much redundacy. I think a good approchal for choices could be the following:
Tier System
Core -> for basic units
Elite -> Some specialization for your army
Champion -> Your leading unit on the battlefield
Core: 3 units. They are supposed to be the core of your army, so no reason to leave choices here. Similar to lvl 1 of Heroes IV,but with three units, exacly like HVI system.
Elite: You can adquire two out of three choices - you leave room for strategy (three differents army compositions) and still is not as restrictive as Heroes IV was.
Champion: You can adquire one out of two choices.
With this set up, you have 6 different army compositions, leaving quite a lot of room for strategy, while at the same time it should be more or less "easy" to balance.
This, combined with no upgrades would be damn interesting. Strategy choices + no redundance
Now I'll go a little further. Imagine that lvl 1 heroes start with "only" 5 slots for creatures stacks, and getting one extra on lvls 5, 10 and 15, so lvl 15 Heroes' have 8 slots. 8 slots, leaving room for some mixing armies (of the same faction (the others choices) or even other castles).
Also, one of the problems of the Heroes IV creature system was when you captured a built castle, and in case of a castle of your same faction, if it already had made the choices you are f*cked. An easy solution could be demolition - the possibility of demolish a Creature Dwelling for a reduced price. So, if you want to have the same choices on your recently capture castle, now you could.
I'll dare to go even further. Right now, the H6 town conversion model is just "you pay xxx gold, y wood & ore and z cristals et voilá, instantly town converted to your faction (correct me if I'm incorrect). Now imagine if:
- You can demolish creatures dwellings (let's say three per day, so two full days of demolishing)
- In order to convert the town to other type, you must have demolished all creature buildings.
- When you convert a town, all the faction specific buildings are lost, but the core, the "neutral" buildings like city hall, marketplace, blacksmith, Magic Guilds, etc....wouldn't be lost.
With this, converting cities wouldn't be instant, but it'd take several days, and then rebuild creatures buildings & faction specific. So, when you conquer a new town, you have the choice - converting it, that would take several days and resources, or sticking to the actual town and mixing some of their units to your army composition. Strategy 
On a last point, maybe town building/demolish process could be improved by changing from "you build any building in one day" to a system of points. For example, each town normally can build 10 points dayly. Normal buildings would take 10 points to construct, but others could cost 5, 15 o even 20, so some buildings would take several days to be build - thus reducing the risk of "Capitol rush on day 4" or "Champion rush on day 5" and so on. Demolishing could cost half points, for example, or a fixed 5 cost.
I find building towns process to be quite unexplored, and wouldn't hurt an improvement
Heck, I like theorycrafting, I should do it more often 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 06, 2013 10:41 PM |
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My answer is that you should have played HoMM 2 as well. Might have changed your opinion.
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted January 06, 2013 10:51 PM |
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Edited by okrane at 22:52, 06 Jan 2013.
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I played HoMM2 too little to have a valid opinion on it (played it after getting H3). It had selective upgrades, i.e. only some units could get upgrades other would not. It's better than H3 imo.
wanna enlighten us on what aspect you are talking about?
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smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 06, 2013 10:56 PM |
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If they have 2 elves, making the third type of elves wouldnt require much effort, all they do is change a few colors... Making a new creature in another castle is obviously better to us players but not to them I suppose, as that would take more time....
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted January 06, 2013 10:59 PM |
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Quote:
If they have 2 elves, making the third type of elves wouldnt require much effort, all they do is change a few colors... Making a new creature in another castle is obviously better to us players but not to them I suppose, as that would take more time....
that is why my question is philosophical in nature. I want to discuss this from a game-design perspective while excluding any pragmatic reasons for doing otherwise.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 06, 2013 11:07 PM |
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That one. SELECTIVE upgrade. Black Dragons would need eben TWO upgrades (Green -> Red -> Black).
ADDITIONALLY you could build SIX creatures but had only FIVE army slots. No-brainer for Haven (Knight) and Peasants, but not quite so easy for the rest.
Selective upgrades were a pretty cool thing. I agree that MECHANICAL upgrades like in HoMM 3 and INCLUDING the alternatives make no sense. In HoMM 6 we get additional growth as well with an upgrade, giving them additional worth - still, I think that INDIVIDUAL bulding trees like in HoMM 2 are way better (also, a so-called Horde Dwelling is, considering H 6, an upgrade building without actually changing stats).
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smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 06, 2013 11:08 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
If they have 2 elves, making the third type of elves wouldnt require much effort, all they do is change a few colors... Making a new creature in another castle is obviously better to us players but not to them I suppose, as that would take more time....
that is why my question is philosophical in nature. I want to discuss this from a game-design perspective while excluding any pragmatic reasons for doing otherwise.
What you're suggesting is additional monsters, I dont think there is a single player out there who would say no to that...
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MattII 
Legendary Hero
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posted January 07, 2013 09:30 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 12:05, 08 Jan 2013.
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One idea I had a while back, H3 style upgrades, but fewer upgraded units than base ones, so say for H3 castle, at Fort level you can spend total 840g (gold)/week at the Guardhouse, 900g/week at the Archer's Tower, 1400g/week at the Griffin Tower, etc. This then gives you the choice, 14 Pikemen or 11 Halberdiers (or a mix of the two say 9 Pikemen and 4 Halberdiers), 9 Archers or 6 marksmen, 7 Griffins or 5 Royal Griffins, 4 Sworsmen or 3 Crusaders etc. Okay it isn't perfect, it tends to fall apart at higher tiers or when there's a Hill Fort on the map, but still, it would work with a Heroes 2 style non-universal upgrade system.
Of course you could go for no upgrades at all and creatures gain stats boosts and sometimes abilites with more experience.
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forest001
Known Hero
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posted January 07, 2013 03:12 PM |
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this is very interesting topic, with many implications all over the place.
i agree that having more unique units is better, but i think the single tier upgrades is a happy medium, here is my reasoning:
1. model/ability changes from basic to upgrade are not that huge and you spent much less time on basic + upgrade than you would on unit + unit
2. do you want only on creature per lvl so 7 per faction and end here, that's too little imho (we just cut the work here period) so i want more! - got more but what to do with them
-choosing dwelings to build - this is really tricky to balance and one way or another one will be left out in most cases, although this could work decently in H6 model
say you can only build 2 elite, then magic hero would always choose the magic damage creature and might one would rarely do that
-just add more uints per faction - this i think would clutter the battles way too much
still this leaves us with not that much more units too choose from due to time restrains from point 1
3. castle incompability, this one is luckily easy to fix with some kind of demolishing of the structures which i must say sounds quite nice
so i propose some mix and match approach taking good leaving bad and trying out something new.
so....
i like the H6 core/elite/champion (i'm sure i'm not alone here)
i like the upgrades (but one is enough for me)
i don't mind some choice but not too much and i don't like 'hard' exclusions
i like the idea of demolishing buildings and building points (thanks storm-giant)
i like the idea of slow progression
keeping above in mid this is my upgrade/city plan
building cost building points
you acquire set amount daily based on your town hall lvl
more advanced buildings cost more building points
you can demolish dwellings
demolishing costs only building points say 1/3 of building oroginal cost
building dependencies are back, can't do day 4 capital
core:
4 units per faction (+ upgrades)
you can build only 3 of them at any one time
2 might and 2 magic
dwellings are quite cheap
upgraded dwellings roughly 1.5 of normal dwellings cost + small amount of rare resource
upgrading doubles the number you can recruit
elite
3 units per faction (+ upgrades)
you can build only 2 of them at any one time
2 might 1 magic
they would need some power up from H6 as you would command only 2 of them
dwellings more expensive cost some rare resource
upgrades cost roughly 2 time us much as normal building
upgrading doubles the number you can recruit
champion
1 unit per faction (+ upgrade)
not sure about the power lvl or numbers would depend on how they are doing vs elites
dwelling should be expensive
upgrades cost roughly 2 time us much as normal building
upgrading doubles the number you can recruit
and the wall upgrades should not give +1 to all as they do now, i would leave it only on ultimate upgrade as a special reward for the resources spent.
this way core, should be your fodder, useful but nothing that would stop any reasonable numbers of elite/champion, elites should be quite powerful and you can choose the two that suit you better - might vs magic will ensure that none of them are permanently benched.
as for the champion there should be only one - don't like the idea of choice here as there would be only two anyway.
if you conquer city that does not match your choices you could demolish and rebuild, or demolish all dwellings convert and rebuild, this way converting will be less trivial that it is now (i like converting too)
also having 6 stacks from the city would leave you with one free spot on your hero to mix things up or to split, whereas now you usually don't have space for elementals/neutrals etc.
lastly i would see dwellings being more expensive so full build-up would cost some serious money and time, also upgrades by doubling growth would yield another strategic decision (look at increased costs) whether to invest in that unit because it's really good or spread thinly into other
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 07, 2013 03:42 PM |
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I don't like the core/elite/champion system.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 07, 2013 04:07 PM |
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On the other hand, the system has a couple of massive advantages. For example, IF a hybrid ability system could be forged, based on the skill/perk system of HoMM 5, but more balanced and with less massive effects per skill/perk (called "better balance"), the system could be quite handy. Imagine, for example, HoMM 5 Frenzy, being actually THREE perks.
I: All Core units get +1 damage.
II: All Elite units get +3 damage.
III: All Champion units get +12 damage.
Something like that.
Also, it is definitely NOT necessary to have a 3/3/1 structure cut in stone - there might be variations.
In any case I do think that the organization of creatures inro tiers may open a lot of unknown roads.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 07, 2013 05:26 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 17:27, 07 Jan 2013.
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Well I do agree that upgrades are kinda pointless from a gameplay/philosophical perspective, I think they are just to essential for the HoMM "feel" to be left out. They are as essential as town screens. Upgrading a creature, seeing it grow, is satisfactionary. I think that rather than removing upgrades, the system could be enhanced. You could have a system where creatures level up. The leveling wouldn't need to be linear, i.e. a creature could evolve in more than one way.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted January 08, 2013 11:47 AM |
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I agree with Xerox. The only point where I see difficulties is that stacking works not so well with Level-Ups...
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 08, 2013 12:09 PM |
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In regards to abilities, yes, but in regards to stats, just vary the stats according to how many novices are in now compared to how many veterans.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 08, 2013 01:12 PM |
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Edited by artu at 13:13, 08 Jan 2013.
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I like Storm-Giant's system, especially leveling up to 8 slot part, but i'd do it like this:
level 1, 2 = No Upgrade and No Alternative
level 3,4,5,6 = You upgrade A to B or C
level 7= You select (can build dwelling of only) A or B
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 08, 2013 01:18 PM |
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Not so. That's what the Heroes are for in HoMM. Creature XP and levelling makes no sense whatsoever in that game.
Upgrades do make a lot of sense, though - if done in a meaningful way, that is, and what you actually mean, when you suggest creature XP and levelling is a DIFFERENT WAY to get upgrades (not just buy another building and get a better version, but have "upgrades" in a more flowing way, step by step.
The only reasonable way in HoMM to do that is a more sophisticated HERO development. Heroes might gain more specific abilities. For example, a Barbarian might gain the Cleave skill, which would give Maulers (and ONLY Maulers) the double-attack ability of the Crushers. STILL that wouldn't make conventional upgrades completely useless: H 6 gives more growth which is a strong incentive to go for them either.
It's just a question of balancing things correctly and make everything meaningful.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 08, 2013 03:11 PM |
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Then how do we make upgrades meaningful?
The XP thing was more of an idea to make the upgrading more immersive. I think HoMM works best when it has some RPG-elements, and I think those elements can co-exist with the multiplayer.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 08, 2013 04:15 PM |
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Unit XP makes things too complicated and is also counter-productive, since it offsets production. In HoMM NUMBERS are important because they reflect, well, industrial output. You WANT to reinforce your troops with ever more recruits.
However, if units gain XP, suddenly industrial output may be counter-productive or useless, since the new recruits will cost you strength as well.
Another thing is, that permanent calculating of what you can add or not add in troop strength without losing too many stats makes the game too convoluted.
Unit XP makes sense only, when your amount of units is limited in a stack (whether a stack consists of 1 unit, like in AoW or Disciples or more like in the current Panzer Corps).
Anyway. A meaningful upgrade is an upgrade that gets a new and important ability. Strictly spoken, a building that increases growth of a specific unit without changing something else, is an upgrade as well, albeit a very simple one.
Generally HoMM 6 does a very good job of offering meaningful upgrades, for example the Succubus-Lilim upgrade: you could strip the Succubus of all abilities without hurting her, then give the Lilim the what's the name? The pacification ability. You can use the Succubus, since it is a good ranged unit, but the upgrade widens the options massively.
Or take the Vampires. In former HoMM games, the basic Vampire would just suck (not considering HoMM IV): you wouldn't want to recruit them, only after the upgrade so they could drain Life and restore their health. Here the problem is, that the upgrade is meaningful, but the basic unit is NOT. This is something HoMM 6 changed as well, since even the basic Vampire comes with Life Drain there. In earlier Homm games, Vampires are a 2-stages building, in effect.
Same with the Gremlins in H3 - upgrade MANDATORY. Not so in HoMM 5, though, even though the upgrade would gain a lot.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 08, 2013 04:53 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 16:55, 08 Jan 2013.
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The creature XP could easily be shared. Obviously it would get messy if every single individual creature stack had its own experience bar.
I don't think the concept of upgrading had meaning in any of the HoMM games. There is no reason for you not to upgrade those Succubi, especially conisdering that Enthrall is a pretty good ability. I think the only way for upgrades to make sense is for there to be multiple, alternate upgrades. That would introduce an element of meaningful choice to the concept of upgrading.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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