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Mister_Kalu2
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 18, 2016 05:41 PM |
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again, this is not the point of this discussion, see the overall , and what the other guys says to you, not me.
i'm away of this idea and of course i wont come back, but an advice is always welcome
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majaczek
Supreme Hero
Work at Magic Dimmension
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posted December 18, 2016 05:58 PM |
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orzie said:
OxFEA isn't greedy about his source code. Yet, I think it's better to post all of it somewhere else rather than distribute it with the mod (but on the other hand, I don't see much problems).
You see, when you work on something for a long time - it's already draining health and mana, so to say, and bringing some of the source codes to a state readable for everyone is sometimes too much of a burden.
Usually when I ask OxFEA about the requests for source codes (I remember someone already asking here), he gives permission.
P.S. We have it arranged as separate .bin, .era, and .dll files, each responsible for separate features.
Really Thanks 
PS: I am maintaining OxFEA plugins, thankfully for he giving us the source code, and given a few new functionalities to them as well as (after many trials and fails) removed nasty crashbug from Emerald (the one related to saves). Since I base on OxFEA sources I feel obligated to distribute newer versions also with code. Also I did at least one own plugin with code released also.
PPS: it doesn't really have to be readable by everyone, it is enough having fairly small amount of comments ... and even though not-readable source code is better than closed code :|
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Kivo
Famous Hero
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posted December 20, 2016 04:03 PM |
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Mister_Kalu2 said:
again, this is not the point of this discussion, see the overall , and what the other guys says to you, not me.
i'm away of this idea and of course i wont come back, but an advice is always welcome
The guys have worked their asses off. The mod looks a lot more presentable rather than a crappy mod with lots of scrapped graphics, bugs, etc...
I would rather much have waited for a playable and well presented HoMM6 than the crap we got. Same goes with this mod.
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted December 20, 2016 04:24 PM |
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Edited by orzie at 16:26, 20 Dec 2016.
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It's just a conflict of world outlooks (or modding ideologies). I see the future in a HotA-like approach. That project started in 2008, released its beta in 2012 and now it's 2017 when it leads the way.
Mister Kalu's approach might have been okay for a hundred players or two, but in the long run it won't make the day. IIRC "the succession wars mod" started in 2008 and in 2013 it was still raw, buggy and unpresentable. (not even mentioning that we had to re-make 80% of the mod from scratch to get rid of the bugs and to implement Heroes 2-style graphics like properly working terrains, etc.)
In short - when you don't do everything properly from start, you seem to lose less time and the people are "happy", but the process of bug squashing and polishment might take forever.
Yes, the risks are higher when we don't have a playable version, but the only one key feature left is the creature abilities (which also were remade from scratch). I'll put maximum effort to it in January and v0.8 beta will see the light this way or another.
--
P.S. Yes, I do not exist as a reference for (a very small compared to what we will have after the release) amount of players, but this is only due to the fact that Mister Kalu still keeps his videos on his channel, misinforming the users about the current state of the project. We have an official YouTube channel and it shows only the material which deserves to be shown at this point.
Not having me personally here and there as "the ultimate reference" for players is intentional, because I understand that there might come a time when I wouldn't be able to continue the work on the project. This is why I arranged things in that way so my hypothetical successor will get 100% of resource control and all the necessary guidelines, and the users will still be able to visit the right people and get the 100% legit information instead of trying to understand who's in charge right now.
Too bad it's not possible to give top post editing rights in project topics to several desired users on HC.
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted December 20, 2016 05:06 PM |
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Edited by Macron1 at 17:10, 20 Dec 2016.
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orzie said:
I see the future in a HotA-like approach. That project started in 2008, released its beta in 2012 and now it's 2017 when it leads the way.
Where HOTA leads the way? HOTA is long time dead, it's about only 1 town made, and several years they only add new cactuses, well, 2-3 neutral creatures, and last time they gone to break original game mechanics.
Succession Wars cannot be like HOTA at its ideology. HOTA is called expansion, and SW is conversion. So noone would expect new towns from SW.
From SW HMM2 mechanics and look is expected, and that's all.
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted December 20, 2016 05:12 PM |
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Edited by orzie at 17:12, 20 Dec 2016.
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C'mon, you have the official HotA thread to express your personal hate towards that project.
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avatar
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 20, 2016 06:13 PM |
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But Macron1 is right, by definitions. HotA is expansion, SW is conversion. Don't mess one with other.
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted December 20, 2016 06:26 PM |
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Edited by orzie at 18:32, 20 Dec 2016.
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Macron1 isn't right by definition simply because he totally missed the point of my conversation with Mister Kalu since he always shouts "evil hota" every time he sees the word "hota".
What I meant is a complex approach and thorough attention to details during the development process which require a lot of time, effort and passion. It's not about the modification type. It doesn't snowing matter what is a fan-made expansion and what is a total conversion in this context. I've worked with HotA Crew side by side and I know how their work is built, I chat with them constantly, and my working style has much in common with theirs.
I hope this topic is closed.
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Revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted December 20, 2016 06:28 PM |
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It is not a conversion, it is expansion over H2 conversion.
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avatar
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 20, 2016 07:07 PM |
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Edited by avatar at 19:35, 20 Dec 2016.
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orzie said:
It's not about the modification type. It doesn't snowing matter what is a fan-made expansion and what is a total conversion in this context. I've worked with HotA Crew side by side and I know how their work is built, I chat with them constantly, and my working style has much in common with theirs.
Don't get me wrong. I guess, SW is rather close to ERA platform than HotA. So, SW will have all standard H3 limitations and handicaps. All new content will be intruduce by scripts, right? That's why fans want to know and avoid expectations - you are planning only script and graphics conversion (like Era does) or you are enough skilled to add tenth (or more) town like HotA did?
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Revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted December 20, 2016 09:30 PM |
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It ALREADY adds another town since it is expansion for Heroes 2. Why would you need 10th town if there are 3 empty slots to expand over 6 original heroes 2 townws?
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Wind_Falcon
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 20, 2016 09:46 PM |
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What I don't understand is why people continue to push the erroneous notion that if they do releases while they work somehow things will be worse and the mod will die. Decades of projects like this coming and going has shown that the effect is always positive - and brings a lot more positives and success than negatives.
But like I already said, it's pointless to keep on with this, as seemingly how our suggestions are met only with scorn...
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avatar
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 20, 2016 09:59 PM |
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Revolut1oN said:
It ALREADY adds another town since it is expansion for Heroes 2.
This is not H2 expansion because to play SW you need have H3 installed on your hard drive, not H2. Project Ironfist is H2 expansion.
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Mister_Kalu2
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 21, 2016 02:09 AM |
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orzie said:
It's just a conflict of world outlooks (or modding ideologies). I see the future in a HotA-like approach. That project started in 2008, released its beta in 2012 and now it's 2017 when it leads the way.
Mister Kalu's approach might have been okay for a hundred players or two, but in the long run it won't make the day. IIRC "the succession wars mod" started in 2008 and in 2013 it was still raw, buggy and unpresentable. (not even mentioning that we had to re-make 80% of the mod from scratch to get rid of the bugs and to implement Heroes 2-style graphics like properly working terrains, etc.)
In short - when you don't do everything properly from start, you seem to lose less time and the people are "happy", but the process of bug squashing and polishment might take forever.
Yes, the risks are higher when we don't have a playable version, but the only one key feature left is the creature abilities (which also were remade from scratch). I'll put maximum effort to it in January and v0.8 beta will see the light this way or another.
in fact the age of the mod is very large, since 2008 probably, but the time is not linear on modding and every other develoment topic not only here, the knowledge and testing of that era are far different from now , including some editing programs.. the tools of course follow the same rule, just see the older sndmanager or "resedit" or check the topic erm help and discussion, and see the questions or the answers of the most common issues
in other words i can advance 5-7 times faster vs the years between 2009-2011 right now
as wind falcon said.
What I don't understand is why people continue to push the erroneous notion that if they do releases while they work somehow things will be worse and the mod will die. Decades of projects like this coming and going has shown that the effect is always positive - and brings a lot more positives and success than negatives.
i'm agree totally
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted December 21, 2016 03:46 AM |
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Edited by orzie at 03:51, 21 Dec 2016.
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avatar said:
Don't get me wrong. I guess, SW is rather close to ERA platform than HotA. So, SW will have all standard H3 limitations and handicaps. All new content will be intruduce by scripts, right? That's why fans want to know and avoid expectations - you are planning only script and graphics conversion (like Era does) or you are enough skilled to add tenth (or more) town like HotA did?
Once again. I don't speak about the technical side.
We may add a 10th town later if we will find enough reasons and motivation to do so. We may implement or not implement HotA's changes - we already did some, including some map editor adjustments.
And no, we almost don't use scripts currently. We use binary patches.
But all of this doesn't matter and the platform of modification doesn't matter. Clean SoD requires more coding, WoG requires more thinking. OxFEA prefers thinking.
What I spoke of initially and ultimately is the careful approach to every tiny aspect of the work, especially the graphics, "genuine NWC atmosphere", playability and overall reception of the mod. I don't know a project which does it more polished and thought-out than HotA.
Waiting takes more time and passion, but it pays off.
Quote:
as wind falcon said.
I'll reply with quotes since I'm done on this topic.
Salamandre said:
Let's stop pretending we know what's about and propose clueless alternatives. 
It is a full conversion, not a patch like fred's one, which continues to add graphics one by one but the game integrity isn't affected. To understand why SW can't be release before completion, imagine Hota team releasing their add-on without -let's say- completing the 6th level creature in the new town. So every time you open the town, and click on something, it crashes. When meet such creature on map, it crashes. When open hero army, it crashes. Of course, 90% of the work is done but the 10% not yet coded makes that game crashes every 10 or so seconds.
Then, everyone who already designed and released projects for Heroes games knows that releasing incomplete work is diluting the reception, the fans enthusiasm modulates into malicious remarks, then is even harder for author to motivate himself until completion.
Myself I have a rule: check here every 6 months if ready. And every 12 for VCMI. Every 24 for romanian town and every 10 years for Galaad's promised map. It pays being realistic, you live longer. 
orzie said:
I was attacked by people shouting "when orzie leaves, we will have nothing". However, without reworked creatures, releasing the mod was pointless. It would be the same 2013 beta with new graphics. Far from playable just like before. So that I am not gonna promise anything anymore, receiving accusations like I didn't pay a debt or something isn't the right way to get motivation.
As a side note, for over 2 years we had to re-do many things in the mod from scratch instead of making new content. Some things which were intended by Mister Kalu like on-the-fly H3-to-"H2" map conversion are impossible by principle, and this lead to the vast amount of bugs in the game and mixed up creature order. Graphics is only the cherry on top.
We almost don't use ERM currently. Era binary patches do the job much cleaner in the majority of cases.
orzie said:
I'll put maximum effort to it in January and v0.8 beta will see the light this way or another.
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Haregar
Famous Hero
of destruction
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posted December 25, 2016 06:05 PM |
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Kivo said:
Mister_Kalu2 said:
again, this is not the point of this discussion, see the overall , and what the other guys says to you, not me.
i'm away of this idea and of course i wont come back, but an advice is always welcome
The guys have worked their asses off. The mod looks a lot more presentable rather than a crappy mod with lots of scrapped graphics, bugs, etc...
I would rather much have waited for a playable and well presented HoMM6 than the crap we got. Same goes with this mod.
That. I've been watching this project for a long time and I'm not impatient about the date in which it's gonna be released.
I rather want full mod, or developed playable version which is not full but has a lot of features in it, than to have one units in HoMM 2 style, others in HoMM 3 style, ending in technical problems and such.
Good luck team!  I count on you and I believe in you.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 25, 2016 08:33 PM |
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I'm somewhat surprised that this project is taking so long given how much was already done in the version that was publicly released earlier - it seemed that almost everything was already there.
But I'm not complaining, every update that's posted looks great and this could potentially be the best game in the series.
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Eccentric Opinion
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted December 26, 2016 03:37 PM |
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Edited by orzie at 15:47, 26 Dec 2016.
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Quote:
I'm somewhat surprised that this project is taking so long given how much was already done in the version that was publicly released earlier - it seemed that almost everything was already there.
A lot of aspects had to be redone from scratch because of poor implementation. The bugs were not fixable.
Binary patching is a way cleaner approach than ERM, although ERM is still useful sometimes.
In the latest development period (with me as a project coordinator), we've also had some auxiliary tools developed, which will save hundreds of hours in the long run.
Quote:
Good luck team! I count on you and I believe in you.
Thank you
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robizeratul
Known Hero
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posted January 11, 2017 02:31 PM |
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A lot of negativity here...I was following this project for years, probably since it was first announced however I don't remember exactly.
Those who attack Orzie need to realize that he(and others) is doing this for free. Instead of watching a movie, relaxing with his friends/family or dating his girlfriend etc he has decided to create something for us. He is (literally) giving away part of his life for this project. Probably thousands of hours where spent on this project and all out of passion.
Anyone who has that kind of passion deserves respect. Double respect for that fact that it's not very popular, he doesn't have thousands cheering him on ...he has dozens and dozens of dedicated fans. It's not easy working like that,not knowing how many people will care about your hard work, and it's a testament to his character that he is still here.
For those attacking him, try helping out the project in any way, that will make the release come sooner. Finding 1-3 people who can do proper pixel art and code could dramatically decrease the waiting time, that's why it's important to spread the word or at least don't stress Orzie out with the same complaints ( I did the same once, it's not easy waiting for something you love! )
As for complaints, the only real complain I have is that Orzie cares too much about the history of the monsters. I think 90-95% of people who play won't care about the backgrounds of specific units, they don't know about other might and magic games and even if they do, if it fits the H2 feel it's all good. I think this is limiting the monster design quite a bit.
However, in the grand scheme of things this is only an opinion and when it comes to art you can't really say, it's clear Orzie and the guys making this view this mod as an art piece not just a "product"...so they should do as they please.
We should wait and be thankful that after all these years passion still exists in this community ! Thanks to Orzie,Uhm,Ragoon and many others!
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majaczek
Supreme Hero
Work at Magic Dimmension
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posted January 11, 2017 02:54 PM |
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I may help doing plugins if real time allow.
all my plugins yet are open source (that mean code is availible, i didn't estabilished any licence), partially because it's noble partially because part of them are derivated work, so my updates to feanors plugins ought to be open source.
I may work with closed sources with Orzie and his team too. However it's not the preffered way. If I get the code for SW and you allow me to use it in public, I may try to backport them to common ERA (SW is very uncommon version of ERA with much of added content, am i right?).
I am bad at balance and such things, and my drawing is very basic so I probably won't be able to do fluffies in pixel art. And last one but not least important I am not so bad tester .
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This thread is pages long: 
