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| Thread: Multiculturalism or national identity? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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blizzardboy
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posted March 15, 2013 12:42 AM |
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I suppose you could have some kind of altered, neo-Shariah law where people are only under it if it's voluntary, but just a note: Shariah was never intended to be voluntary. It's meant to be the guiding principle of any Caliphate. Non-Muslims living in the country are as subject to it as anybody else. Since WW1, the closest thing we have to a modern Caliphate is Iran, but even it is a flawed example. The rest of the Muslim world is living in mixed-culture countries or countries with colonial-installed dictatorships (or, very recently, brand new governments).
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xerox
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posted March 15, 2013 12:46 AM |
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Yeah, they would have to be modified, voluntary Shariah laws.
New question: If parallel societies are bad and are prevented by common values and culture, should religious private schools, such as islamic ones, be forbidden? And perhaps even mosques?
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JoonasTo
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posted March 15, 2013 12:51 AM |
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Mosques, forbidden? LOL, no.
Religious private schooling is another matter entirely. I believe such a thing doesn't exist anywhere. The states have laws that dictate the absolute minimum in what must be taught to the students. They also usually require the kids to meet those minimum requirements.
Should there be a situation where the whole schooling system was free to do as they wished to, that might be different and create issues. It's a two-edged knife, banning schools in that kind of system. After all, misguided education is often better to the persons future than no education at all.
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artu
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posted March 15, 2013 01:14 AM |
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As long as it violates basic human rights, the cultural stuff should not count, it took centuries to reach those standards and I think they should be cherished. All the other cultural rights will be delivered with freedom emerging from those basic human rights anyway.
About the Sharia law discussion, in here where most people are muslim, only about ten percent of the people say they want it. But I guess that would be different in Arabic countries, I've read recently that in Egypt 86 percent of the people support the punishment of death for converting from Islam while in Turkey that ratio is 5 percent only. As I've mentioned before, history matters and although in theory it seems like every muslim must or will naturally support sharia, life does not work that way and it overcomes religion. Even in Ottoman times sharia was mixed with traditional law here, and although the state was not exactly secular, muslim law was only valid for muslims, non-muslims had their own courts and they were subject to muslim law only if a crime was acted against a muslim. (Any empire has to be multicultural anyway, it would mean its own ruin to act like a nation-state.)
The Sharia wanting muslims put it like this, there is criminal law (which they think should be universal) and there is law regarding domestic issues (like marriage, inheritance, private stuff) they want that to be sharia for people who demand it. But in reality that would mean a lot of women being forced into stuff they don't want because in rural areas they are still oppressed.
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xerox
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posted March 15, 2013 01:19 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 01:21, 15 Mar 2013.
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Turkey has had some amazing secular leaders so it's different from the other muslim countries. Seems like you voted for islamist parties during the last decade though:/ but I guess Erdogan has been doing a good job considering how much your economy grows. I hope Turkey will be a member of the EU soon. Just be nice to the kurds! (the kurdish situation and Atatürk actually relates a lot to the whole national identity thing).
It's interesting with the oppression of women. I've been discussing legalizing polygamy in my country. We have a very large muslim population here. Do you think it would impact muslim women negatively if polygamy became legalized? I'm pretty sure polygamy happens anyway, but in the dark.
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artu
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posted March 15, 2013 01:26 AM |
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30 years of civil war, even the nationalists wanna be done with it, Kurdish problem may resolve in a few years, but then in the Middle East, you never know, it's a region constantly in war.
Legalized polygamy would be devastating for Muslim women here, yes. In rural areas they would lose all kind of legal leverage if they have any in practice.
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mvassilev
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posted March 15, 2013 02:09 AM |
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What would happen if someone under Sharia has a legal dispute with someone under normal law? What about people who would switch between Sharia and normal law whenever one legal system is more likely to reach the conclusions they want than the other? "When I beat my wife, it's Sharia, but when I want to drink alcohol, it's my country's law."
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artu
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posted March 15, 2013 02:32 AM |
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i think there would be a lot of compatibility issues too. i just wanted to correct the notion that every muslim automatically wants sharia and every one who wants it, wants it in all sections of the law.
if you ask my personal feelings about it, the sooner it goes down the drain of history, the better.
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Seraphim
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posted March 19, 2013 02:40 AM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 03:10, 19 Mar 2013.
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Quote:
Turkey has had some amazing secular leaders so it's different from the other muslim countries. Seems like you voted for islamist parties during the last decade though:/ but I guess Erdogan has been doing a good job considering how much your economy grows. I hope Turkey will be a member of the EU soon. Just be nice to the kurds! (the kurdish situation and Atatürk actually relates a lot to the whole national identity thing).
Except that they will never be in the EU. There are so many reasons for this, it almost should be obvious.
Its an interesting issue. Personally, I think that turkey should not join the EU because they don need it. The EU has turned from an economic Union to a bureaucratic mess.
Quote:
It's interesting with the oppression of women. I've been discussing legalizing polygamy in my country. We have a very large muslim population here. Do you think it would impact muslim women negatively if polygamy became legalized? I'm pretty sure polygamy happens anyway, but in the dark.
Legalizing polygamy would be a legal disaster and a disaster for all those women who become victims to that type of behavior. But they are already victims because laws matter little in remote areas.
Quote:
New question: If parallel societies are bad and are prevented by common values and culture, should religious private schools, such as islamic ones, be forbidden? And perhaps even mosques?
Yes, they should be prevented. If you want to maintain a principle, you have to prevent other principles from overtaking your counry.
Mosques are cultural-religious objects or rleigious boradcast centers for indoctrination. Not a good idea to have them around.
Schools are even a bigger no go. If you indoctrinate children, they will be the worst fanatics later on. Religious schools should be banned, public ones should be enforced.
Religion is a personal matter, it should not interfere with the constitiuton of a country or the priciples of science.
If you want proof that parallel societies or dual culturalism failure, jsut look at all the countries that used to be religiously or culturally polarized.
Bosnia: A mess then and now. It will be split and the radical elements are growing. Another war is probably unavoidable.
Kosovo is a good example between two groups and not beingable to tolerate each other.
Today, macedonia is fragmenting aswell. The internal policy is a disaster.
Paris suburbs are areas where they have become defacto autonomous from the police. Seriously, sharia law in paris suburbs is not a myth.
Same goes for London.
You see, europe will never able to become truly multicultural. It will never be able to integrate nor assimilate people because it simply cant and lacks the society to do so.
The way it looks now, its heading into fragmentation and stagnation. When europe becomes fragmented, it will nologer be able to compete(The reason for th EU and euro) and thus fall back.
Not a rosy future...
We are talking here for a 50-100 year time scale.
I know how swedish people think and you are too liberal to many things.
When dealing with Islam and sharia, a Clear NO should be the answer.
Dont expect that those people will live "happily" and become more and more swedish over time. They wont. You really should not think that only material poverty is the reason for violence and crime. Its the lack of education that matters the most.
Those people that emigrated are not open and they sure as hell dont want to live the way swedish do. They wont. Again, this is personal opinion. There are good people and bad people. I am talking about bad people here. The good ones dont matter in this case.
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blizzardboy
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posted March 20, 2013 04:18 AM |
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@Seraphim:
There are plenty of examples to be had of successful (enough) multicultural societies, above all, Singapore and Malaysia. Highly diverse populations and yet life has been improving there throughout the 20th and 21st centuries. Peaceful multicultural societies are not strictly theory; they are demonstrable.
If you use the weight of the law to enforce "normality" you will cause ethnic minorities to become more resolved, not less resolved.
If you use the weight of the law to show preference to a certain group of people, you will incite problems. Even if this isn't officially endorsed, it's important that the country be merciless with preventing this from happening in case-by-case issues as well.
If you don't force people into corners, multiculturalism has already demonstrated to be doable. If you do choose to force people into corners over non-essential issues, then the best option would be to systematically exterminate them. Either of those two options will produce good results, or at least the later option would be good if it didn't also cause catastrophic backlash in the wider world. If you go for a middle ground where you try to legislate them into acting how you want them to act, then you're guaranteed lots of problems. They'll be embittered and won't love their country and yet they won't fear it enough to be bothered to obey.
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