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| Thread: Magic and Anti-Magic in Heroes VI |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted April 30, 2013 05:46 PM |
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Ok about counterstrike III I may add that when you gate units they receive it even though it is not the first 3 turn. IF you gate same unit twice he receives the perk both times.
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted May 23, 2013 03:49 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 15:58, 23 May 2013.
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Dungeons & Dragons
Two brand new sections about Dungeon and the magic immune Black Dragons has been added to the first post!
+ means that dispel works as it should, i.e. it removes the effect.
- means that dispel doesn’t remove the effect.
Dungeon
+ Poisoned blades (Shade)
+ Curse of shadow (Stalker)
+ Harrowing vision (Lurker)
+ Mind probe (Watcher)
+ Paralyzing sting (Manticore)
+ Corroding venom (Manticore)
+ Mind leash (Faceless puppeteer)
+ Withering breath (Dragon)
- Invisibility (Assassin), i.e. you won’t dispel it by mistake.
- Fighting spirit (Minotaur), just as it should be according to the description.
- Heart of darkness (Dragon)
- Terrifying presence (Dragon)
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IMMUNITY TO MAGIC
The Black Dragon is the most prominent among the creatures with immunities to one or several effects. This is how its ability "immunity to magic" is explained: "The Black Dragon is immune to all spells effects. Incoming spell damage from enemy units attacking the Black Dragon is also reduced by 30%."
In practice this means the Black Dragon is immune to all abilities that involve magic, no matter if it's an activated or passive ability, or if it's a hero or creature ability. They are immune to all spells but not to war cries. Reputation abilities are also divided in might and magic.
Hero reputation abilities
Dragons are safe from monsoon, watery grave, serenity, tsunami, word of light, holy blades (passive), armageddon, inferno, doom (might hero), curse of the netherworld, father sky’s wrath, idol of storms, shadow implosion, soulmark (dark damage).
They are harmed by divine justice, anathema, mark of chaos, nightmare, mark of the necromancer (but none of the blood war cries deal direct damage), power of the horde, diversion, stalking shade.
Reputation abilities resembling war cries used to boost your creatures can be used on the Black Dragon, for example Feign Death and Dark Transfer.
(I haven't been able to test reputation abilities resembling spell boosts, such as the confessors' resurrection.)
Creature abilities
In addition to this the Black Dragon is immune to all creature abilities that involve magic:
Sanctuary: waves of renewal, ice shards (only animation, no effect), hailstorm aura (water damage), crashing leap (doesn’t do additional water damage)
Haven: searing light, pacification
Inferno: blade of hatred (frenzy), boundless hate (only animation, no fire dmg), enthrall, succubus master’s immolation
Necropolis: breath of vermin (earth damage)
Stronghold: burning rage, sky and earth
Dungeon: mind leash, harrowing vision, mind probe, poisoned blades (dark damage)
All might creature abilities has the normal effect: challenged, ferocious wound, taunting presence, manic laughter, eye of gluttony, rage against the living, webbing spear, Goblin trap, paralyzing sting.
It is IMPORTANT to remember that the Black Dragon are immune to both positive and negative effects, no healing is possible. They are also immune to dispel, which may be annoying sometimes but also means that your enemy have difficulties to counter war cries, reputation abilities and pressed attack.
***
Added to the section called "Dispelling with creatures":
Faceless and Darkness Elemental
Dark purge - The next time the Faceless Puppeteer attacks this turn, it dispels all positive effects from its target. Does not consume the Faceless Puppeteer's current turn.
Shadow Form - The Darkness elemental's attacks dispel one random positive effect from its target
Both abilities work as they should according to the descriptions, and even removes effects from Black Dragons.
Blazing Glories' Cleansing Light also cleanses the Blackies, and probably the only way a Dungeon hero can dispel anything harmful from them is to add Glories to the army.
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted May 24, 2013 04:38 PM |
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such posts are always a joy to read.
Another way to dispel (although technically it's not dispelling) is using Dance of Decay ability (Fate Weaver's special):
Quote:
Dance of Decay - Deals damage (Prime) to all adjacent living creatures worth of 10(+stats)% of their initial Health and
hastens all effects on all adjacent creatures by 1 turn producing all related consequences. This damage cannot be healed.
So by instantly triggering some abilities you can "dispel" some that have only 1 turn remaining such as: guardian angel. This is the only way that i know to remove guardian angel from a unit.
Frenzy and Angels
Your opponent can cast frenzy on your angels (at least in 1.8.0)
Purge and sacrifice - necro magic tears ultimate
i don't know the specifics but i've been playing necro magic tears vs stronghold and purge "dispelled" the effects of sacrifice.
Since i'm usually playing haven i've had little exposure to purge but i guess it has some additional benefits (not just mass dispel).
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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Athos
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 25, 2013 03:21 PM |
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Quote:
Ok about counterstrike III I may add that when you gate units they receive it even though it is not the first 3 turn. IF you gate same unit twice he receives the perk both times.
If you read the Counterstrike III text carefully, I believe it applies to the first 3 "combats", not the first 3 turns of the battle. So each creature will get the ability the first three times its attacked. That's my observation of it.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted May 25, 2013 03:28 PM |
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Locksley tested it here and said it was first 3 turns of combat
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Athos
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 25, 2013 06:47 PM |
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All due respect to Locksley, but I don't think that's how it works. I believe each unit gets it separately.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted May 25, 2013 07:18 PM |
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Yes, I suggested him the same if you read above. I thought the same as you.
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Athos
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 25, 2013 09:15 PM |
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Okay, I read the posts above. I can't tell exactly what is being said there, and I don't disagree with what Locksley wrote.
What I believe happens is that for each creature, it's eligible for the preemptive strike once per turn, on its first three combats. So if a creature is attacked three times in one turn, only on the first attack will it counterstrike beforehand. The second attack that turn it will counterstrike normally -- CSII; and the third attack that turn it will not counterstrike at all. On the next turn, if it's attacked again three times, the same process will occur. And the next turn.
This happens for each unit individually. It's not just in the first three rounds of the "battle" as a whole. This is my understanding.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted May 25, 2013 10:59 PM |
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Ok, tell me what happens if a unit is not attacked during the first 2 rounds? Does it get CSIII for the next 3 rounds?
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Athos
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 26, 2013 12:16 AM |
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Edited by Athos at 00:18, 26 May 2013.
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Yes, I believe so. But I haven't specifically tested it. It's what I recall from my observation. I've seen nothing inconsistent with that understanding.
If you or someone else has contrary evidence, I'd love to hear it b/c I think it's working as designed.
Also, the 3 combats don't have to be on consecutive turns, I don't believe. Just the first three combats, one a turn maximum.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted May 26, 2013 10:57 AM |
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yes, I tottaly agree with you !
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted May 27, 2013 05:06 PM |
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@ NamelessOrder
Quote:
So by instantly triggering some abilities you can "dispel" some that have only 1 turn remaining such as: guardian angel. This is the only way that i know to remove guardian angel from a unit.
That's a very useful effect but I have almost never used because it's often difficult to get the Fateweaver in position for Dance of Decay without teleport.
Frenzy and Angels
Frenzy is coded as a positive effect even if it's a blood spell, while tears' spell petrification is coded as a negative effect and can be removed by purity.
Purge and sacrifice - necro magic tears ultimate
Purge doesn't remove sacrifice, but a purged creture gets "immunity to positive effects" and can't be the target for sacrifice.
@ Athos and Natalka
I have never been able to have Counterstrike III in turn 4 or later.
Your posts inspired me to test different approaches, such as starting to attack in turn 2 or 3, or to attack every second turn to see if the target "saves" some CS3's for later use - but no matter what I do all CS3 effects disappears when turn 4 starts.
I've also tested gating and summoning elementals from scrolls and the extra stacks get CS3 if they appear in turn 1-3 but the effect disappears at the start of turn 4. If I summon in turn 4 or later there is no CS3 effect.
Perhaps I don't fully understand what you've been talking about, or perhaps there has been some patch changes.
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
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posted May 27, 2013 05:13 PM |
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@Counterstrike 3: Up till 1.8, any creature gained this and other such temporary effects like Ambush the moment it entered combat... so gates and summoned troops got them whenever they joined the combat. For example, a round 5 summon would still retaliate pre-emptively in round 8, etc. I no longer play, so IDK if 2.1 addressed this(I think this was what reset Baleful Gaze upon shapeshifting too, but I never confirmed that)
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted May 27, 2013 05:35 PM |
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@ Lockley
Quote:
That's a very useful effect but I have almost never used because it's often difficult to get the Fateweaver in position for Dance of Decay without teleport.
I actually don't think its a useful effect but sometimes one might take advantage of it. Anyhow i often put glories or even praetorians in hole in necro formation and put them under GA so fate weavers cannot attack. Then this is very useful.
Purge
1). All i'm saying is that purge is not mass dispel. Petrification is dispelled by mass dispel but not by purge.
2). The sacrifice and purge doesn't work like that (unless i've encountered some bug or i don't really got the way purge worked which is possible b/c as haven player i don't have access to the spell).
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted May 27, 2013 08:49 PM |
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@ Polyglot
Yes, things aren't like in 1.8. anymore, thanks for the reminder re: how it was. I think that Death is not the End used restart CS3 too but that's not the case now, that's why I started to suspect the patch btw. Baleful gaze however still comes back every time the weaver enters humanoid form in 2.1.
@ NamelessOrder
1)
Yes, purge differs from dispel in that it only works on positive effects, I didn't realize it until you mentioned it, but it's logical it doesn't work on petrification if that spell is coded as negative (and is removed by purity, opposite to purge).
2)
I agree that purge + sacrifice are very weird together. The order of casting matters:
If A purged B's ghoul, B couldn't sacrifice the ghoul.
It seems like sacrifice is a positive thing, but...
If B sacrificed a ghoul, and A then purged the ghoul, BOTH sacrifice and purge icons were displayed when right-clicking. Ghoul attracted damage, and became immune to positive effects.
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Athos
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 27, 2013 09:00 PM |
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Quote:
@ Athos and Natalka
I have never been able to have Counterstrike III in turn 4 or later.
Your posts inspired me to test different approaches, such as starting to attack in turn 2 or 3, or to attack every second turn to see if the target "saves" some CS3's for later use - but no matter what I do all CS3 effects disappears when turn 4 starts.
I've also tested gating and summoning elementals from scrolls and the extra stacks get CS3 if they appear in turn 1-3 but the effect disappears at the start of turn 4. If I summon in turn 4 or later there is no CS3 effect.
Perhaps I don't fully understand what you've been talking about, or perhaps there has been some patch changes.
If you've tested this, I tend to believe it. Natalka said her gated units were getting it beyond the first three turns, and I recollect having a unit get it (not gated) beyond then too. But that's untested by me, and my recollection may be flawed. I can't speak for Natalka, but her experience, if true, reinforced my existing understanding of this.
Unless and until I actually test this and get a different result, I'd defer to your more scientific experience.
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted May 27, 2013 09:35 PM |
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I think you and Natalka were right before the expansion (Polyglot's post also suggests this).
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted May 27, 2013 10:49 PM |
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@ Lockley: I'm sorry but you're missing the point.
Purge vs Sacrifice
Purge "prevents" sacrifice. In other words creatures with purge DO NOT BENEFIT FROM SACRIFICE.
1). Lets say you purged liches and then enemy put sacrifice on vampires. You can still attack liches and there will be no damage transfer. Liches not vamps will get the dmg.
2). If the sacrifice has been already cast the purge or dispel have no effect.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted May 28, 2013 04:33 PM |
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Quote:
1). Lets say you purged liches and then enemy put sacrifice on vampires. You can still attack liches and there will be no damage transfer. Liches not vamps will get the dmg.
2). If the sacrifice has been already cast the purge or dispel have no effect.
Thank you 
That's even weirder than the things I found out or what I could imagine. Good stuff to know.
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted May 28, 2013 07:13 PM |
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Purge
This might not be obvious:
Although purge cannot be active on angels it does act as dispel (so in other words you can dispel angels with purge but the player can cast spells on angels unlike on any other typical creature).
@Lockley
Updates
If you can could you include the new findings in the first post (masterpost) so that all the important and confirmed information in the one place.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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