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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Counter Stronghold
Thread: Counter Stronghold This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted October 19, 2013 03:09 AM

silentQ said:
...I do enjoy playing playing dwarfs - they are my favs...
@silentQ imo, it's funner to play your favs better than use another faction but that depends on how much of a favourite it is

Just be careful posting replays so you or your opponent doesn't get hurt by overly critical comments like your friend "doesn't know how to play haven".

I've seen your old posts in HoF fortress thread so you probably already know some of my opinions too.  If people don't see you with at least the 3 essential runemage skills (vs might faction) in mid late game, then they might say it.  An orc hero with two shatters plus logs only leaves 2 other non-racial skills: not unbeatable, unless army/stat difference is too much.
(you gotta think of your own strengths that your opponent has to counter as well - it's not all one way...like heaps of resources means can use runes willy nilly in big battles & rune of etherealness in early turns can be lol)
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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Undead_king_
Undead_king_


Hired Hero
posted October 20, 2013 03:57 PM
Edited by Undead_king_ at 16:01, 20 Oct 2013.

To be honest Stronghold are probably my fav faction  , but i find them quite weak in comparison to Fortress,Sylvan and probably Necro, i mean - you have no solution for mass slow, confusion, weakness, suffering, frenzy, Also none of your casters have dispel...Units are quite weak compared to all others from other factions( compensated by blood rage absorb kinda ), but BR is quite hard to raise without the 3 Shout perks, Bloodfire, and Battle Elation...And if you don't get lucky with Shatters vs some factions you stand almost no chance...

I mean i tried going full might( Ret,Aura of Swifftness, Expert defense) vs faction who i tought wouldn't get Dark Magic and destroy me, like Haven and Fortress,and i was right but they just mass endurance/might/haste and divine vengeance me to death... Second game i got lucky with Shatter Light, but ofc that didn't even help a little againts mass blessings and the stupid DV, and thunder thanes with rune of battle rage with greater rune...(most annoying thing ever...), oh yea almost forgot the ridiclous rune of ethrealness/ressurection/berserking, Magna Dragons are indestructible - You have to waste your auto attack for 1 kill on them each turn, in turn you can't cast Shouts to improve your below average stat units...

Overall, i find Fortress to be the most OP faction of all (ofc they are not undeafeatable , and i have beaten them before with a lot of luck ofc, and because i got more stats/artifacts than my opponent and just overpowered him... ) but they just have everything, ALL their units can reach you in first turn with rune of charge, OR they can just turtle up with Preparation/Deff formation, and good luck busting that out with Might build... As for spellcasters, hell half their units are immune to something, plus they got rune of elemental immunity....

BUT IMO same stats/artifacts i find Fortress to be probably the best race thanks to the Runes....

Am i am the only one thinking that Fortress has pretty much no weaknesses at all ? I mean their units are like mini-heroes...IMO i find it impossible to beat  a good Fortress player, with any faction and it's hardest for me with Stronghold and Haven... I just can't do anything 90% of the times...


Also guys, i see some of the  comments above TS said, he can't beat them with Dwarves ...dude ? rly ? i found that hard to imagine, the only reason i see him wining is because he has more hero stats/artifacts than you, otherwise equal stats/artifacts Barbs can't do anything to Fortress....
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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted October 20, 2013 05:35 PM

well dwarves have a hard time of it at start of game imo.
So the artis/stats should not be that equal.

For barb hero, I wouldn't pick shout skill or bloodfire, but elation is almost a must.
But good point about DV!  I neglected that aspect of the cheating spell even if shattered - it can still be quite devastating.
Note if barb hero does not have windstrider boots & enemy hero chooses tactics, then many orc stacks cannot reach other side to attack in 1st action.
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted October 20, 2013 07:11 PM
Edited by markkur at 19:12, 20 Oct 2013.

Undead_king_ said:
Am i am the only one thinking that Fortress has pretty much no weaknesses at all ? I mean their units are like mini-heroes...IMO i find it impossible to beat  a good Fortress player, with any faction and it's hardest for me with Stronghold and Haven... I just can't do anything 90% of the times...


Nope. I think they are "usually" the hardest to beat in late-game. My own idea about making them more reasonable was/is that
"they should only have Runes";...since they have Magic too, they are more magical than Wizards? <L> Maybe that would balance things better. Thanes hitting everything on one turn, units going ghost-mode or any unit doing the charge-bit seems enough to me. Maybe just add a couple of mass runes where needed...if needed.

The only thing I don't like about playing the Orcs is the cost to build. iirc it's the most expensive town and on some maps it's hard to get anywhere with the high needs of ore and mercury; much like trying to get dragons in the Necro.

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Undead_king_
Undead_king_


Hired Hero
posted October 20, 2013 10:04 PM

markkur said:


Nope. I think they are "usually" the hardest to beat in late-game. My own idea about making them more reasonable was/is that
"they should only have Runes";...since they have Magic too, they are more magical than Wizards? <L> Maybe that would balance things better. Thanes hitting everything on one turn, units going ghost-mode or any unit doing the charge-bit seems enough to me. Maybe just add a couple of mass runes where needed...if needed.

The only thing I don't like about playing the Orcs is the cost to build. iirc it's the most expensive town and on some maps it's hard to get anywhere with the high needs of ore and mercury; much like trying to get dragons in the Necro.


Well exacly man, late game OR with equal stats/artifacts they are hardest to beat.... I mean they have it all, they have the strongest IMO level 7th creature in Magma Dragons, with Rune of charge u get these guys across in 1 turn , than come the good old Thunder Thanes with 145 hp and shiitload of defense, and alone with their Thunder Strike can lay waste to your entire army with rune of berserking/battle rage . Yea i dunno what the Devs where thinking when they introduced the Dwarfs .. oh yea, and the Last stand Rune of Ressurection tactic is so annoying and imba it's unreal...

Also Do you guys know what's the best Strategy vs Fortress if i play Stronghold and let's say Haven or Inferno (from your point of view), i mean what's the best build you can try to get(ofc its all chance , especially shaters, ) ,

and i mean not for some early rush strategy but for late levels of games for like example - early to mid month 3 , level 25..., with larger armies,



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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 21, 2013 04:40 PM
Edited by zaio-baio at 16:48, 21 Oct 2013.

Undead_king_ said:

Well exacly man, late game OR with equal stats/artifacts they are hardest to beat.... I mean they have it all, they have the strongest IMO level 7th creature in Magma Dragons, with Rune of charge u get these guys across in 1 turn , than come the good old Thunder Thanes with 145 hp and shiitload of defense, and alone with their Thunder Strike can lay waste to your entire army with rune of berserking/battle rage . Yea i dunno what the Devs where thinking when they introduced the Dwarfs .. oh yea, and the Last stand Rune of Ressurection tactic is so annoying and imba it's unreal...

OR with equal stats

Not gonna happen, the dwarven stats distribution is not so good for the lategame:

Attack 20%
Defence 30%
Spellpower 30%
Knowledge 20%

Its good to note here that the bonus stats from the enlightenment skill are also distributed using the above formula. In other words the dwarves dont have that high might stats in the lategame, its one of their main weaknesses. An enlightened knight or barbarian will always have better might stats than any dwarf hero, given that both heroes are the same level.

Another weakness of theirs is the low chance to learn the logistics skill, in other words you are doomed to be slower then your opponent on the map. About the logs skill -> its outrageously imba on large/xl/huge maps. The main skill gives + 30% movement at expert level, then the pathfinding ability is pretty good on most of the maps too. What does shine the most, however, is the mighty warpath perk. It provides +250 movement points after every fight, while your basic movement points are 2500. So if you do only 1 fight per day the warpath perk is as good as +10% movement increase. Here comes the broken part - on large/xl/huge rmg maps you do lots of battles per day - 3-4, sometimes even 5. Thats 30% from expert logistics + at least 30% more from warpath every day. Consider the fact that most factions will get expert logs week 1, then warpath asap mid/late week 2. After that they will move 50-60% faster even if you ignore the pathfinding bonus. Thats more than +1 week movement for free every 2 weeks .
All you need is to clear 17% more than 1/2 the map to be twice as farmed as your opponent - normally each of you should have cleared half the map (50:50), if you clear 17% more then the balance is shifted to 67:33, which means that the logistics player will reach 2x more att/def/sp/kn boosters, 2x artifacts, 2x mines, 2x  battle locations and so on. Then, before the final battle you simple mentor out logistics + warpath for 12,5k gold and pretend that the map is balanced . The stats, artifact, resource and gold advantage is ,of course, kept. Note that sometimes its better to mentor out only warpath+pathfinding and get the scouting + swift mind perks.
To sum up - factions with high chance to get logistics can abuse the memory mentor building more than the dwarves. Also the logistics advantage is ridiculous even if you dont mentor out the logs skill.

Most of the ubi maps have big treasures in the middle and the first to reach them normally wins.

Another dwarven disadvantage is the poor creeping + high dwelling cost combo. You need to get all the resources that the map offers asap, yet you dont have the means to do it. Your best bets for the creeping part are destructive and/or war machines, that happen to be weak lategame. Not to mention that you cant build the mage guilds, because they are too expensive resource wise. In 3.1 the ballista is priced at 4,5k gold for the dwarves and they also dont have a hero that starts with it or a tent (ballista + tent = 6k gold ). In other words their early game is pretty flawed & the 3.1 patch made it even harder by tripling the price of the ballista.

Thats for now, later will comment on the strategy part.

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Undead_king_
Undead_king_


Hired Hero
posted October 21, 2013 06:27 PM
Edited by Undead_king_ at 18:38, 21 Oct 2013.

^

Hmm, that will work for normal pvp games (tournaments or something), but for friends play ,the way i did it (we farm, our territories which are equal - in RNG maps ) than fight somewhere in the middle of the map, with a set encounter, plus , since we farm our territories, we share same bonuses, we ARE equal

and that stats again is actually good, i mean perfectly balanced ( not like Inferno i had a hero - 26 attack - 3 def 2 sp 12 know or something)

What im saying is we don't play to do dirty tricks to each other or out manuever your oppenent before the critical battle, but we do it so we can find out what faction is strongest when equally farmed/leveled, you see my point now ? We just wanna see how balanced the game is , and which faction is stronger againts an other and the opposite, which faction is weakest vs which opponent, i hope that didn't sound confusing or something

which brings me to my comment above....

PS: also dude can you gimme a link or something to some balanced maps( mostly large/extralarger/huge) with actual memory mentors cuz the ones we play suck big time, thx again
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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 21, 2013 09:26 PM
Edited by zaio-baio at 22:14, 22 Oct 2013.

Undead_king_ said:

Hmm, that will work for normal pvp games (tournaments or something), but for friends play ,the way i did it (we farm, our territories which are equal - in RNG maps ) than fight somewhere in the middle of the map, with a set encounter, plus , since we farm our territories, we share same bonuses, we ARE equal  

What im saying is we don't play to do dirty tricks to each other or out manuever your oppenent before the critical battle, but we do it so we can find out what faction is strongest when equally farmed/leveled, you see my point now ? We just wanna see how balanced the game is , and which faction is stronger againts an other and the opposite, which faction is weakest vs which opponent, i hope that didn't sound confusing or something

The way you play it the game is terribly imbalanced
The main concept is that some factions have easier time creeping/building their town and are faster on the map than others, that are slower/harder to build but scale better into lategame. So, for instance, the necro player will have to use his better creeping and faster speed on the map in order to gain lvl, stats and artifacts advantage over his dwarf opponent in order to have a balanced final battle lategame.

Btw on that map and with those settings its very very bad to play as inferno vs dwarf because:

1.Inferno cant make profit from his high chance to learn logistics.
2.Dwarfs wont be penalized for having low speed on the map.
3.Inferno has dark and destro as native spells, that happen to be a poor choice vs the dwarf because
 a) destro is weak with big armies
 b) dwarven luck owns dark and destructive casters
 c) rune of exorcism + mass cleansing are very good vs dark
 d) rune of magical immunity owns destructive
 e) the dwarves have better stats distribution and a higher chance to learn enlightenment
 f)combat runes + light vs low defense
 g)Armageddon is hard counter to those gates + inferno will have very hard time getting the fire resist perk. Without it - their defense will be permanently halved.
4. Inferno's main strenght - the imps burning mana doesnt work vs dwarves - the small guys will simply get tap runes.
And many many more
Even tho you can win, the chances are on the dwarven side - its like 7-3 or even 8-2 match-up for them.

Undead_king_ said:

and that stats again is actually good, i mean perfectly balanced ( not like Inferno i had a hero - 26 attack - 3 def 2 sp 12 know or something)

Perfectly balanced stats are bad for lategame, you need as much as possible attack + defense. Unless you go for dark magic(then you may need spell power too), but it may be resisted/cleansed + there are some arts that give permanent immunity to dark spells.  

Undead_king_ said:
PS: also dude can you gimme a link or something to some balanced maps( mostly large/extralarger/huge) with actual memory mentors cuz the ones we play suck big time, thx again


Hehe, ive the best map possible. You havent played nothing as epic as it EpicAsHell. Made by might555, of course i asked about his permission before positing it.
You should start as either red or green player, and your opponent as either blue or yellow. Note that you have 3 unguarded goldmines next to your castle + 2 more guarded, 4-5 unguarded witch huts, unguarded memory mentor, 2 utopias, lots of arts and stats boosters, 3 lvl 1, 3 lvl 2, 3 lvl 3, 2lvl 4, 2 lvl 5, 1 lvl 6 and 1 lvl 7 dwellings in your starting zone. Same deal in your other zone . The road to your opponent is guarded by 1000+ lvl 7 units and some very big garrisons. Also there is 1 very big guard of about 4000-5000 lvl 7 units. You can start as a campaign hero too - markal, king tholghar, isabel etc. About the balance - you can abuse so much that its actually balanced.

P.S Here is one very nice replay. Me, haven vs the mapmaker, sylvan. He said that natures luck wyngaal is undefeatable on this map ,if the final battle is on grass(+2 speed from familiar ground for the elves), i said my haven can win Note that he also abuses the crown of leadership + diplomacy combo, so his army is seriously boosted.

Edited: The link does work now

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Undead_king_
Undead_king_


Hired Hero
posted October 22, 2013 09:03 PM
Edited by Undead_king_ at 21:17, 22 Oct 2013.

^
Yea, man i know it's imbalanced in general term, but we like it like that, we are more like testers , rather than trying to find out who is better, to tell you the truth we love the part of the final battle, both players facing each other with their armies, and probabable builds...We farm as we can ofc, i didn't make myself clear, we only have an agreement not, to do dirty tricks ( like take enemy capital while he is away creeping, or just rush him with tripple flaming balista or something like that.... ) we want to find what creatures with their respective hero, has the advantage with fairly equal stats( ofc they are almost never equal but still ) almost... We kinda fight in month 3, or when we have like 12-15 tier 7 units...because waiting longer is not inresting ( i mean what's the fun of massing 30-40 Black Dragons or something... ) we try to be closer to Duel Heroes, but with ofc higher level 25-27... Our main goal is the battle strategy, creature strategy, skill strategy, not so much Macroing, getting the edge with tricks etc , and so far we found out that with Runes(greater/fine) and Mass Blessings with Divine Veng spam, dwarfs are definetly the strongest race we have found so far , i mean im sure you know of the last stand/rune of ressurection/refresh rune combo...

But i see you are way way more knowing about the mechanics of the game ,and im a editor and tester myself, and i love trying new tactics, so i have a question ?

I really enjoy playing Inferno ( my second fav after Stronghold), and i usually play 2 heroes ( Grok or Deleb), Deleb on smaller, Grok on Larger like you said he is really really good for large maps, and with cheap teleport you can creep some ranged/casters far easily and with far less casualties...(like teleporting the bulky demons to Arcane archers )

My tactic with inferno is really fun for me, altough you might not find it effective

with Grok i go , i love this guy cuz for Inferno Logistics is actually VERY usefull in the the critical battle itself, unlike other races who only farm early game than memory mentor out of it

EXP LOG into > Swift Gating + Path and Teleport Assault or Path and Snatch/Warpath

EXP attack > Tactics + Frenzy + Cold Steel

EXP DESTR > Master Ice+Fire  + Searing Flames

And if i get lucky always get EXP ENGLIGHTMENT/ or Light Magic
and for Final Skill i choose either Defense/Luck/Leadership - depending on what Witch Huts have to offer ,
From those i go like this usually
ADV Def > Prot>Hellwrath
ADV Luck >SL>Swarming Gate
EXP Leader > Dip > Emp>Gate Master - for this you need A LOT of luck, but works wonders especially if u get lucky to get EXP enlight from Hut and Leadership from lucky shot at 2% chance


I love this tactic, i hate taking dark magic, with this tactic i just love the bonus elemental damage from Hellfire and Cold Steel, i focus on quickly attacking and overwhelming enemy defenses with my units ( with winstrider boots i can take all my units across in 1 turn ( Hell Stalions/Arch Devils/Pit Spawns/Horned Leapers/Vermins/Firehounds) strike hard, and inflict as much casualties as i can, or first spam some gates, than charge, with Swift Gating Hell Stalions still act first... ) My hero usually supports the assault reducing armor with Fireballs or strategicly reducing enemy ATB with Circle of Winter, (while before the battle i try to collect as much Spellpower from items/bonuses as much as i can i just hate Demon lords low sp ) , who are about to hit my precius fragile units in Stalions and Hounds...I always take Succubus Mistresses i just love their Chain of Hellfire (with Searing Fires and 10 spellpower, u deal exacly 110+65=175, for 20 sp is 10+200+110=330 and so on fire damage[Formula is as you probably know ofc 10+10*SP + 50% from talent Searing Fires ] to each target SO OP in mid game , hits so fricking hard... What do you think about this strategy ?

Also i have a few more questions ?

1. Why doesn't Cold Steel proc on Sucubus Mistress
2. Bloodfire talent gives 50% extra range and -50% more loss on actions like normal attack 100 rage, BF attack 150 range, Wait -100, BF wait -150 right ? Does this work for damage too
example Normal rage a unit takes 100 damage - looses 50 BR - absorbs 50 damage , creature takes 50 ?
Bloodfire unit - unit takes 100 damage - looses 75 BR ? -absorbs 50 damage, creature takes 50 damage or im wrong ?

If im right i guess BLoodfire is not a bad talent at all, or if im wrong, Bloodfire i guess is a must ?

PS :  dude i can't see the replay 404 error or something, and thx for the map
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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 23, 2013 07:22 PM
Edited by zaio-baio at 19:25, 23 Oct 2013.

Undead_king_ said:

My tactic with inferno is really fun for me, altough you might not find it effective

with Grok i go , i love this guy cuz for Inferno Logistics is actually VERY usefull in the the critical battle itself, unlike other races who only farm early game than memory mentor out of it

EXP LOG into > Swift Gating + Path and Teleport Assault or Path and Snatch/Warpath

EXP attack > Tactics + Frenzy + Cold Steel

EXP DESTR > Master Ice+Fire  + Searing Flames

And if i get lucky always get EXP ENGLIGHTMENT/ or Light Magic
and for Final Skill i choose either Defense/Luck/Leadership - depending on what Witch Huts have to offer ,
From those i go like this usually
ADV Def > Prot>Hellwrath
ADV Luck >SL>Swarming Gate
EXP Leader > Dip > Emp>Gate Master - for this you need A LOT of luck, but works wonders especially if u get lucky to get EXP enlight from Hut and Leadership from lucky shot at 2% chance



The best way with Grok is:

1. Logistics, max them out asap, while waiting for
2. Warmashines - you need at least the tent perk. The balista perk is also good.
3. As 3rd skill get dark magic. You need to have it before lvl 15, else you may not be able to get a crucial mass perk.
4. Defense - too good to skip and a must have for a big battle vs any faction. Get power of endurance or last stand.
5. Enlightenment. If you cant get it then aim for luck/leadership.

This is a hybrid build that is good both for creeping and in the final battle. Of course, if you manage to find a memory mentor get rid of the war machines and maybe the logistics skill. Note that swift mind + dark spell very often decides the game.

Undead_king_ said:

I love this tactic, i hate taking dark magic, with this tactic i just love the bonus elemental damage from Hellfire and Cold Steel, i focus on quickly attacking and overwhelming enemy defenses with my units ( with winstrider boots i can take all my units across in 1 turn ( Hell Stalions/Arch Devils/Pit Spawns/Horned Leapers/Vermins/Firehounds) strike hard, and inflict as much casualties as i can, or first spam some gates, than charge, with Swift Gating Hell Stalions still act first... ) My hero usually supports the assault reducing armor with Fireballs or strategicly reducing enemy ATB with Circle of Winter, (while before the battle i try to collect as much Spellpower from items/bonuses as much as i can i just hate Demon lords low sp ) , who are about to hit my precius fragile units in Stalions and Hounds...I always take Succubus Mistresses i just love their Chain of Hellfire (with Searing Fires and 10 spellpower, u deal exacly 110+65=175, for 20 sp is 10+200+110=330 and so on fire damage[Formula is as you probably know ofc 10+10*SP + 50% from talent Searing Fires ] to each target SO OP in mid game , hits so fricking hard... What do you think about this strategy ?

Any good player will beat it badly. The destructive spells scale poorly into the lategame and they also wont let you creep fast. Better get war machines instead, inferno is custom cut for them.

Undead_king_ said:

Also i have a few more questions ?

1. Why doesn't Cold Steel proc on Sucubus Mistress
2. Bloodfire talent gives 50% extra range and -50% more loss on actions like normal attack 100 rage, BF attack 150 range, Wait -100, BF wait -150 right ? Does this work for damage too
example Normal rage a unit takes 100 damage - looses 50 BR - absorbs 50 damage , creature takes 50 ?
Bloodfire unit - unit takes 100 damage - looses 75 BR ? -absorbs 50 damage, creature takes 50 damage or im wrong ?


1. Its most likely a bug, normally it does work on ranged units. Anyways cold steel is a waste of skill point, if you go for attack then get tactics + power of speed. They are by far the best.
2. The problem is that when you attack you get a fixed 100 points of rage, but when your troops are attacked then they lose an amount that is not fixed ( it may be way more than 50 rage). For example - you attack and you get 150 rage ( + 50 from the blood fire perk), then the attacked troop retaliates and you lose 600 rage ( - 200 rage from the same perk).

Blood rage works as follows:
1. It absorbs 60% of any incoming damage at expert level, but only
2. As long as you have rage points.
The formula is in the manual: Rage points lost = 1200*dmg_absorbed/Stack_max_hp. The way rage works its best to score big hits on the orcish troops while their rage points are low. So focus them stack by stack.

Note that the 3.1 patch seriously nerfed the blood rage.
1. In 3.0 at exp level the blood rage absorbs 70% on the suffered dmg, in 3.1 - 60%.
2. In 3.0 - Rage_Points_Lost = 1100 * Damage_Absorbed / Stack_Max_HP, while in 3.1 - Rage_Points_Lost = 1200 * Damage_Absorbed / Stack_Max_HP. So rage is both weaker and easier to lose.

Undead_king_ said:

PS :  dude i can't see the replay 404 error or something, and thx for the map


Edited it, now the link works.


P.S A few months ago i edited my profile's name and lost all my old replays. Does someone know if its possible to get them back ?

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Undead_king_
Undead_king_


Hired Hero
posted October 23, 2013 10:35 PM
Edited by Undead_king_ at 23:23, 23 Oct 2013.

^ yea that build is like a shot in the dark but, i still like it and worked quite good for me, especially attacking enemy's who have -50% armor with already high attack from Demon Lord , also if i ever get offered Light Magic i always choose it, so i don't have to choose Power of Speed/Endurance , i usually choose all 3 basic perks, or 2/3 and fire ressist depending on oppoents, also i found that the perk Eternal light is incredibly amazing vs other Dark Factions...


Obviously Enlightment and Logistics are best  for Inferno, i definetly agree here

But i have
few more questions  -

1. Why should i get dark - obviously for PM and Berserk ? And what perk should i choose from it ? and vs who should i get dark ? is there a specific faction or mostly vs all ? I personally found it very unrealiable, i mean with my already low spellpower i can't seem to ever use PM to turn the battle in my favor...

2. Warmachines - yea that works wonders for creeping but, i noticed, is it a bug that tent only ressurects/heals 3 times in combat ? Obviously ballista is not that good for other heroes, except Deleb....


3. Attack - hmm, im confused, you say Power of Speed ?, than  i can't get Flaming arrows, so my ballista is really weak, is there any point in WM ? so what should i get here ? PoS or FA ? obviously other 2 are tactics/battle frenzy

4. Defense - yea i agree here, power of endurance is quite nice if i don't get offered Light

5. Luck - what i go for  here ? SL into Swarming gate + Ressist ? or nah ?

6. Why i shouldn't get destro ? Sure you don't have much spellpower, but with lucky items, u get a decent amount of it, and also im not talking about late game, more like mid game,  Inferno gets quite nice destro spells in magic guild - i only need 2 spells for my strategy - Fireball and Circle of Winter (or Firewall),



7. Sooo, about Bloodfire ? I didn't get it ? So with Bloodfire - you get attacked and you loose 50% more than normal rage , OR you loose normal rage...


PS : I just watched the replay , hah dude wtf ? is this month 5 or something ? you had 41 defense + Dwarven Set the other guy had like 18, and u call that balanced , and he killed almost all of your army, holy sh***t ..... I think that prooves just how OP Sylvan really are..., also  that Dwarven Set bonus casts Defflect Missile and Endurance based on your Light Mastery right ? meaning it's not really worthed if u don't get light Mastery ? Also i just tested it with Arcane Omniscience, and it casts them on Expert Mastery
You have some other replays ? Where you play Stronghold or Inferno ? that one was epic altough too much of a late game, level 32 , you got more like mid fights ? like month 3 ? or even  more like that i don't mind

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TheMeInTeam
TheMeInTeam

Tavern Dweller
posted October 23, 2013 10:41 PM

Quote:
The road to your opponent is guarded by 1000+ lvl 7 units and some very big garrisons.


I shudder to think of what happens if someone whips out those "advanced creeping techniques" and wtfowns 1000 dragons with last stand + vampires or that arcane crystal abuse I was reading about haha.  Not only because of the insane level boost, but also because of how long it would take <3.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 23, 2013 11:05 PM

Oh God, that reminds me. A fellow ToH player did a 45 min turn because his barbarian got some stalkers to join him and was running around killing neutrals with a ballista and warpath. That made creeping as safe as it gets but his ballista was only basic so it took ages to kill the strong guards(lots of waiting and running around was involved) and warpath allowed him to attack more and more neutrals..
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Locksley
Locksley


Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
posted October 24, 2013 09:27 AM
Edited by Locksley at 09:40, 24 Oct 2013.

Destructive IS nice to play with as inferno, at least in standard games on standard maps, and there's still an ok chance to win.

Jezebeth with 10-15 SP (that's realistic), sorcery, warlock's luck and an element boosting artifact (almost) !
That's a good game, creeping with luck and hellfire (with good SP!) and bonus to succubus mistresses.

Other examples:
Grawl + tactics + swift mind + master of fire + luck charge!
Deleb (or Grawl) + ballista + luck + master of fire flaming arrow!


Undead King's questions:

1. why dark? PM and frenzy of course + vampirism to keep control over your units. Spam mass spells to use your mana pool, combine imps with seal of (+ shrug) darkness.

2. Tent has three charges to prevent endless healing turns (see H6), and that's all you need.

3. Attack: Power of speed because the game is about initiative. Tactics for excellent cerberi creeping. Flaming arrows are cool but complicated to get and only ballista is still good for creeping.

4. Defence with PoE

5. Exp. luck is good in itself. Swarming gate and resistance are good bonuses to have. Or warlock's luck

6. Why not destro? - Most other factions have better magicians no matter what you do, but Inferno is a bit special because it uses destructive with might skills for troop support, which can work very well. But dungeon, sylvan and fortress (even necro and academy) can get a lot of might skills too, and still do more damage with their spells than you can, you must hope that your army alone can do even more damage than enemy hero+army.

7. With bloodfire: you get attacked and you loose 50% more than normal rage

***

I have a guestion too: Cold Steel with Dungeon often doesn't work (only 1-3 bonus dmg), have anyone else encountered this disappointment

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 24, 2013 01:54 PM
Edited by zaio-baio at 15:20, 24 Oct 2013.

Undead_king_ said:


I just watched the replay , hah dude wtf ? is this month 5 or something ? you had 41 defense + Dwarven Set the other guy had like 18, and u call that balanced , and he killed almost all of your army, holy sh***t ..... I think that prooves just how OP Sylvan really are..., also  that Dwarven Set bonus casts Defflect Missile and Endurance based on your Light Mastery right ? meaning it's not really worthed if u don't get light Mastery ? Also i just tested it with Arcane Omniscience, and it casts them on Expert Mastery
You have some other replays ? Where you play Stronghold or Inferno ? that one was epic altough too much of a late game, level 32 , you got more like mid fights ? like month 3 ? or even  more like that i don't mind



That game was on the type 1 map, week 7 . We just abused the hell out of the map and got the 2nd castles and all the dwellings very fast. Also i had full dragon set too

Note that his artifacts are very good too, he managed to get sick amount of joiners via diplomacy + crown of leadership. Otherwise the game wouldnt have been close at all. Note that the dwarven set is the best counter to wyngaal, his units play so fast that he cant cleanse the mass deflect + mass endurance spells, that are casted at the start of the combat. Also if he wants to charge with windstrider boots(+1 speed) then he cant have the full dwarven set( must have on windstrider boots instead of greaves of the dwarven kings), so no mass buffs for him. And if wyngaal has the set on, then he wont have that + 1 speed to his units, so storm wind + 2 pieces of the necro set ( for -1 speed penalty) will make it impossible for his troops to charge.
Anyways, we made an agreement before the game that the final battle will be on grass, so he can use the +2 speed bonus from familiar ground. Wyngaal was supposed to be undeafeatable on that map and especially  when played by the mapmaker. Also haven was supposed to be among the weakest towns there ( dunno why, i havent lost a game )

Some replays:
1. InfernoVsAcademyEpic
2. OrcVsNecro
3. OrcVsInferno
4. InfernoVsOrcsWithUltimate
5. LightInfernoVsNecroWithUltEpic
6. InfernoVsNecro
7. SylvanVsAcademy
8. HavenVsSylvan Ossir with swift mind can cast mass cleansing before his units play. ( unlike Wyngaal)
9. HavenVsNecro
10. HaggashCreeping4700RedDragons 500 Centaurs Vs 4700 Red dragons. The mapmaker showing some creeping in action. He actually did lost the final battle vs my preparation haven

P.S.
@ Undead_King
Yes, if you dont have light magic then the dwarven set is not worth it.

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RMZ1989
RMZ1989


Supreme Hero
posted October 24, 2013 03:58 PM

Oh wow, the Heroes 5 are alive. Stopped following the Heroes 5 Section, thank you for those replays, I will take a look at them when I get back home.

Heroes 5 are, and probably will be the best Heroes game by far for me, if they don't do something epic in Heroes 7.
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Undead_king_
Undead_king_


Hired Hero
posted October 24, 2013 05:16 PM

zaio-baio said:


Some replays:



dude those where epic , i especially liked the ones with 10-12 tier 7s just my thing also those first 2 vs Inferno prooves how feeble Stronghold are vs good rivals, i mean even with overwhelming force your troops kill each other... it's really sad.... the Only Reason the Orcs won vs Nicolai because it was pretty much troll play 40/30 attack/def vs 11 attack, 70 cyclops and 1k centaurs vs 30 dragons
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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 24, 2013 09:03 PM
Edited by zaio-baio at 21:26, 24 Oct 2013.

Undead_king_ said:
zaio-baio said:

also those first 2 vs Inferno prooves how feeble Stronghold are vs good rivals, i mean even with overwhelming force your troops kill each other... it's really sad....

Actually they are pretty strong if played abused well.

Some of the best combos are:

1. Attack + tactics + retribution
2. Leadership + battle elation + aura of swiftness.
3. Defense
4. Shatter dark
5. Enlightenment then mentor out for shatter light + stormwind and/or resist fire.

-> there is a bug about the orcs -> they are the only heroes that keep the starts from enlightenment even if its mentored out. So you end up having both shatters at the cost of 1. Of course you can mentor out enlightenment for luck or another skill.



Free goblins:
1. Get mentoring.
2. Wait till week 6-7.
3. Mentor all your orc heroes and get the "Defend us all perk".
4. Get up to 960 goblins for free ( when getting the "Defend us all" perk week 7 with all 8 heroes (8x120goblins).

About the goblins - the way their defile magic works with 1,5k goblin witch doctors you get 85% chance to block any spell casted by any lvl hero . Look at that orc vs necro replay from the previous post, all spells that the necro hero casted were blocked. Also you can use "order of the chief" with your hero or your chieftains to move your goblins to play before your opponents hero.



Goblin knight - thats the strongest possible "strategy". Of course its quite cheap but it does exist in the game and its great to use vs those that say the game is flawless.

1. Get mentoring.
2. Buy a knight hero from your tavern.
3. Mentor him up to about lvl 20.
4. Get "Last stand" + "Guardian angel" perks.
5. Put a stack of about 30-40 non-upgraded goblins in his army.
6. When you enter a combat deploy only 4 goblins in 1 stack on the field.
7. When you opponents attacks, then he will kill all goblins but 1 ( due to last stand), that goblin will betray your hero and join your opponents hero. And here comes the bug - you dont have any creatures left on the field, yet you dont lose your hero ( due to the "Guardian angel" perk). So you can attack your opponents troops with your hero untill you kill them all, while your opponent has no target to attack.
8. If you manage to get the relic "Shackles of the last man" then you can simly execute all your opponents heroes one by one

P.S What your opponent can attempt is to get a counter to the last stand perk, but it wont work, as the goblins will betray anyways
In other words there is nothing he can do about it and you can defeat his 20 months army with just 4 goblins. How cool is that ?

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Undead_king_
Undead_king_


Hired Hero
posted October 24, 2013 09:52 PM

i call that poor functions and coding  on part of the devs of the game


, as for Barbs keeping stats, after they loose Enlightment, yea i figured that out during the Campaigns when i re-played them on Heroic ,i used it on Kujin, when i unlearned it at the of mission 4, and got Shatter Dark, cuz i knew what was comming in Flamboyant Exit , i tried the same with Zehir, but it didn't work damn , i guess it's a small edition to the poor barbs i guess ? or just a annoying bug ?
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Maciek
Maciek


Known Hero
posted October 25, 2013 12:41 AM

How to deal with Goblin Knights :
A. Hide in a town with at least a Fort or in a fortified Garrison. Kill his Goblins and then his Catapult. He lost a stack (Catapult), so he dies.
B. If he has any Warmachine, just destroy it after you hit the Goblins.
C. Just keep attacking him with anything to deplete his Goblins. When he has <4 Goblins, he's not dangerous anymore.
D. Let's say that, for some reason, he also has "Elemental Balance" skill. Summon anything and kill the enemy summon after you kill his Goblins.
E. Hypnotize his Goblins and Clone them. Then kill the original Goblins and the Phantoms after that.
F. Attack him with >3 unupgraded Goblins. Be sure you can kill the remaining ones after they betray you.
G. Get Raise Dead/Resurrect and some Deep Hydras/Wyverns/Foul Wyverns. After you lower DH/W/FWs' health with RD/Res., they will regenerate faster than he can kill them with normal attacks. You won't win, but neither will he. Who will quit the game first?
H. Get Nur/Maahir or a powerful Necromancer with Green Marker (also known as "Mark of the Necromancer"). Add either Regeneration or Magnetic Golems and some Destructive spell. Effect: same as above.
I. Buy all the Knights you can from Tavern. Hopefully, your opponent won't buy a Knight.
J. If he attacks you with just 4 Goblins, Sacrifice (with Shamans) or Eat (with Cyclops) one of them. Then the last Goblin won't betray him. Even better, after you kill the last Goblin, enemy's Guardian Angel will resurrect the other 2 for you! That's what Shamans call a promotion.

And the most obvious one: Get your own Goblin Knight. Get more Goblin Knights than your opponent. Actually, why would you need any other heroes? (except for a Mentor to give them experience)

If the Knight has Guardian Angel but no Last Stand and you kill all his Goblins in one hit, his Guardian Angel will resurrect them for you. This can also be used to get free Goblins from Sphinx. Of course, you must answer the question wrong.

Going further down this path of thought, Necromancers can get some troops from Sphinx. And any hero with "Spoils of War" skill can get some resources from Sphinx.

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