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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Counter Stronghold
Thread: Counter Stronghold This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV
SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted October 25, 2013 04:07 AM

Didn't know who was trolling who when there's talk of mid-late game inferno without defense skill and 26 attack & only 3 def (demonlord should take def stat boost rather than atk), and the other's talking about 1000 lvl 7 creeps.

Undead_king_ said:
...you had 41 defense + Dwarven Set the other guy had like 18, and u call that balanced
Agree here.  25/41 with mass end/deflect missus from dwarf set against 29/18 without defense skill late game.  But then again DV takes balance out of the equation & the magic immune saved them (I did wonder why have dryads & brutes in battle & why not Dougal-boosted xbows as favored instead of crappy squires probably no creeps?)

Dwarf set bonus makes it the best set for battles unless you are field small army planning to nuke the enemy if you have PoE or light magic.  You cast some other mass spell as first hero action.  Even orcs gain immunity to some spells but I would prefer THE ARMOR for orcs & can get 2 parts of the set for 40$ magic proof.  So only wizard or warlock without light or def skill would not use that set for big battle.
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
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"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
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Undead_king_
Undead_king_


Hired Hero
posted October 25, 2013 10:52 AM
Edited by Undead_king_ at 10:56, 25 Oct 2013.

SKPRIMUS said:
Didn't know who was trolling who when there's talk of mid-late game inferno without defense skill and 26 attack & only 3 def (demonlord should take def stat boost rather than atk)


nah, that wasn't trolling, that was a test, i just wanted to see what natural stats will Demonlord get on his own by leveling with Englighment , also i said going with 70 cyclops and 1k centaurs vs 30 ghost dragons, and 38/33 vs 11/33 was kinda trolling - overwhelming numbers + stats
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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 25, 2013 04:31 PM
Edited by zaio-baio at 17:50, 25 Oct 2013.

Maciek said:
How to deal with Goblin Knights :
A. Hide in a town with at least a Fort or in a fortified Garrison. Kill his Goblins and then his Catapult. He lost a stack (Catapult), so he dies.

Have you tested it ? Anyways, he can start the battle with 4-5 stacks of 4 goblins and nuke his catapult before you can kill all his goblins.
Maciek said:

B. If he has any Warmachine, just destroy it after you hit the Goblins.

If he has
Maciek said:
C. Just keep attacking him with anything to deplete his Goblins. When he has <4 Goblins, he's not dangerous anymore.

If the goblins are less then 30% of the original stack then they betray no matter what. Mb you point out that if he has less then 4 goblins before the battle then he is screwed ? Agree here
Maciek said:
D. Let's say that, for some reason, he also has "Elemental Balance" skill. Summon anything and kill the enemy summon after you kill his Goblins.

Havent tested it, but who will bother anyways.
Maciek said:
E. Hypnotize his Goblins and Clone them. Then kill the original Goblins and the Phantoms after that.

He can cast magic immunity right after you puppet them, or nuke both stacks with word of light. You need to kill that cloned stack last.
Maciek said:
F. Attack him with >3 unupgraded Goblins. Be sure you can kill the remaining ones after they betray you.

He can bring more army and focus your goblins. You need to kill all his army before he manages to kill your goblin stack. What can you do vs 3-4 stacks of imperial griffins with last stand + 3-4 stacks of goblins +  word of light?
Maciek said:
G. Get Raise Dead/Resurrect and some Deep Hydras/Wyverns/Foul Wyverns. After you lower DH/W/FWs' health with RD/Res., they will regenerate faster than he can kill them with normal attacks. You won't win, but neither will he. Who will quit the game first?

Or he will actually have some artifacts and nuke em
Maciek said:
H. Get Nur/Maahir or a powerful Necromancer with Green Marker(also known as "Mark of the Necromancer"). Add either Regeneration or Magnetic Golems and some Destructive spell. Effect: same as above.

If he has arts + destro then that regen strategy wont work, same with resurection and raise dead. Pendant of conflux + seal of light/-50% spellcost ring will give him infinite mana too. Magnetics will be harder, but he can also put a griffn/paladin stack on the field to kill em via might. Also magnetism doesnt work vs armageddon, if memory serves.
Maciek said:
J. If he attacks you with just 4 Goblins, Sacrifice (with Shamans) or Eat (with Cyclops) one of them. Then the last Goblin won't betray him. Even better, after you kill the last Goblin, enemy's Guardian Angel will resurrect the other 2 for you! That's what Shamans call a promotion.

He can nuke his goblins before your cyclopses/earth daughters reach them.

Im not sure that there is a way to counter that goblin knight at all. I mean if he manages to get the right arts and skills, then its gg no matter what.


@SkPrimus
He doesnt have enlightement, thats why his stats are low. Besides, when both heroes have enlightenment, then the haven hero will have better might stats due to better stats distribution. Anyways, if i have played wyngaal i would have used a different approach.
Wyngaal's build was:
1.Light     |
2.Logistics |   Nature's luck
3.Luck      |
4.Attack - tactics + retribution
5.Leadership + swiftness aura
So no defense, no enlightenment

The dryards were a good call, he had about 80-90 treants join him, so "symbiosis" was strong.

Brutes > Conscripts when you have multiple tier 1 dwellings (assault becomes pretty good) and no high lvl dwellings. Dunno about that game, but my tier 1 were quite a lot + i saw my opponents low defense stat in my town, so i decided to use brutes.

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TheMeInTeam
TheMeInTeam

Tavern Dweller
posted October 25, 2013 09:25 PM

Quote:

Have you tested it ? Anyways, he can start the battle with 4-5 stacks of 4 goblins and nuke his catapult before you can kill all his goblins.



I haven't tested it, but if destroying the cata would work then this tactic would probably work.  Even mentored knights aren't going to have a ton of spell power; they'd probably struggle to kill the catapult in 2 hits and doing it in one would take incredible investment for a knight.  How many hits can a stack of 4-5 goblins take from a tower?  I suppose artifacts can make it possible but this would be decidedly harder to put together than a weak "auto attack ftw" goblin knight.

Quote:

If the goblins are less then 30% of the original stack then they betray no matter what. Mb you point out that if he has less then 4 goblins before the battle then he is screwed ? Agree here



He probably meant hit + runs without shackles.  Still, this is an expensive approach given the potential # of goblin knights (or goblin #s on one knight), since if you attacked with anything too weak he'd simply deploy more and kill you.

This is a pretty obnoxious "tactic" lol.
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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 25, 2013 11:57 PM
Edited by zaio-baio at 18:30, 26 Oct 2013.

TheMeInTeam said:
Quote:

Even mentored knights aren't going to have a ton of spell power; they'd probably struggle to kill the catapult in 2 hits and doing it in one would take incredible investment for a knight.


Cold steal dead ? Easy to get with memory mentor.

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted October 26, 2013 06:44 AM

Undead_king_ said:
SKPRIMUS said:
Didn't know who was trolling who when there's talk of mid-late game inferno without defense skill and 26 attack & only 3 def (demonlord should take def stat boost rather than atk)


nah, that wasn't trolling, that was a test, i just wanted to see what natural stats will Demonlord get on his own by leveling with Englighment , also i said going with 70 cyclops and 1k centaurs vs 30 ghost dragons, and 38/33 vs 11/33 was kinda trolling - overwhelming numbers + stats
hehe, I also meant that your username sounded similar to some other snow I didn't see that replay about 38/33 vs 11/33 so yeah would agree too.

@zaio-baio, yeah I also thought after I wrote: what no enlight???  If relying on overwhelming initial damage, then enlight allows for more attack stat & thus more first strike damage (which also means less retal damage, which is made worse without defense skill) plus higher def stat.  Was there any mentor before battle as luck skill seem wasted with 7 luck?

But I'm not sure sylvan's all-out kill everything as soon as possible (can't pick defense skill unless luck is high enough) is good enough vs haven/orcs anyway unless ranger attack stat is closer to enemy hero defense stat.  Those haven retals really hurt!  Stormwind in 3.1 plus 2 parts of necro set makes it even tougher.

I thought those dryads/brutes were there for DV but other than that, I thought another druid stack for endurance (esp since no defense skill & no mass endurance for ranger vs KNIGHT) or inqu/zeal stack for whatever spell casted before hero casts another is nice for those huge damaging stacks. I also prefer emeralds.

Anyway, they're just idle thoughts that don't mean much when outside the game.  It means even less when DV is included

That replay of haggash 500+ centaurs with earth daughers killing 4700 reds in 3 stacks showed very good creeping skill/knowledge - almost like trying it before & fine-tuning

Goblin knight!  I hated them in H4 as only tier 3 & almost as strong as champions which were tier 4!
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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Maciek
Maciek


Known Hero
posted October 26, 2013 01:54 PM

SKPRIMUS said:

Undead_king_ said:
...you had 41 defense + Dwarven Set the other guy had like 18, and u call that balanced
Agree here.  25/41 with mass end/deflect missus from dwarf set against 29/18 without defense skill late game.  But then again DV takes balance out of the equation & the magic immune saved them (I did wonder why have dryads & brutes in battle & why not Dougal-boosted xbows as favored instead of crappy squires probably no creeps?)



Stat difference would've been even bigger if Haven army was replaced with Academy army with good Mini-Artifacts.


Goblin Knights:
A. Yes, tested.
B, D Yep, it's situational. But lack of Ballista, Summons and Arcane Crystals can cripple his offensive somewhat.
C. Attack with some secondary heroes, maybe also leave some casters in mines. Takeing mines will cost him precious Goblins.
You could also consider using more smaller (but not too small) caravans instead of less larger ones. Smaller caravans (especially with shooters/casters) will still cost him some mana or 4 Goblins and they won't cost you as much troops.
E. If you're afraid of the Knight's spells, get Counterspell or some Goblin Witch-Doctors or Imps. His mana will hopefully run out before he cripples you too much and then, he'll have a hard time defending from E-H.
F. If he has any live stack left after his Goblins betray him, he can't use this bug.
G. In this case, if you survive until his mana is gone (Knights usually aren't great casters), it's a draw.
H. If he has a Griffin/Paladin stack, all the better. That means they're not with a main hero and it's easier to kill all the Goblins first. Armageddon (at least friendly Armageddon) healed Magnetics last time I checked.
You can't get "Seal of Light" and "Guardian Angel" at the same time. Pedant of Conflux is indeed problematic. Zoltan the Necromancer could eventually block all Knight's damaging spells, but that's just one hero.
J. You could use Swift Mind + Teleport Assault on EDs. But it won't work if he uses 5 Goblins instead of 4.

"Cold Steel"? I don't see how it could help. Do you mean "Cold Death"?
Hypnotize in point E can be replaced with Seduce. So, if he kills his Catapult but not all Goblins in first move, you may have time to Seduce, Clone, kill the original Goblins.

The problem is, if he hits both Catapult and Goblins with "Circle of Winter", then sometimes he'll lose, sometimes he'll become undefeatable instead. It seems to depend on where he places his Goblins and where exactly he uses his spell.

If the Knight doesn't act first, you should be able to kill all his Goblins before he moves.
That means the Knight will also need "Swift Mind" in addition to "Guardian Angel", "Last Stand" and "Cold Death". So he must be at least level 22 (minus number of availible Witch Huts).

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Buji
Buji


Known Hero
posted October 26, 2013 04:10 PM

Maciek said:
"Cold Steel"? I don't see how it could help.

Long time since I've played Heroes V but doesn't skills like Cold Steel and Fiery Wrath counter Last Stand?

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 26, 2013 06:09 PM

and hunters? do goblins betray between the 2 shots?

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 26, 2013 07:50 PM
Edited by zaio-baio at 12:58, 27 Oct 2013.

@ Maciek

What if you play against a goblin knight and have last stand + resurrection ? Put all your army there, attack his goblins, so last stand and betray trigger, and then, when his goblins come on your side, resurrect them and nuke em afterwards, so the last goblin remaining betrays you and goes on the goblin knights side. Then use you army and kill it. Should work

I'm guessing that he can nuke those goblins after you resurrected them, so they betray you and join him . If its possible then the one who loses all his mana first will lose.

@Fauch - its tested, the goblins betray before the 2nd shot.

Edit: Tested the last stand + resurrection combo, wont work. After they betray the goblin knight and join you, you cant resurrect more than 1 goblin.

What does work, however is to have last stand + goblins yourself. Put the goblins and your army on the field, then nuke your goblins so the last goblin betrays you and joins the goblin knight, and then, kill that goblin with your troops. But what if he puts 7 stacks of 4-5 goblins on the field ? Then you will need to kill all his 7 stacks before he manages to kill your single stack of goblins...
I guess you can put 7 stacks of 4-5 goblins too and play the same game, yet he can attack with his main hero with all his army...

If you are attacked in town, then you can hit his goblins to trigger last stand + betray, and then kill his catapult.
The problem is what if he attacks with 7 stacks of 4 goblins + shackles + Cold dead, swift mind, last stand and guardian angel? You have to kill all his goblins before he manages to nuke his catapult.
If you have some goblin stacks + last stand it may work, but its too risky anyways.

Btw im starting to think that:

Defense + last stand
Light + guardian angel
Destro + cold dead or ignite (cold dead only if you attack in town)
Logistics + swift mind
Sorcery

... is the best build for a goblin knight

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Maciek
Maciek


Known Hero
posted October 27, 2013 01:38 PM

Maybe swap Sorcery for Leadership + Empathy if you have enough levels. You want first action as soon as possible.

I didn't check how Catapult reacts to "Remote Control".

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silentQ
silentQ


Hired Hero
umm... yeah.... got milk?
posted November 16, 2013 06:51 PM

Whoha, this thread took off. Lots of reading lol.
Sorry folks i was away for a bit.

The game did start and i started off with Haven with Vitto against my better judgement. Just for the hell of it to try it out. Especially after reading zaio-baio's strategy breakdown.

We're playing 2vs2 on double confrontation map. Myself and Orc vs Orc and Dungeon. Playing for defeat all rather than capture the object.

So far i'm following zaio-baio's advices and i've creeped and levelled better than anyone. ballista and crossbowmen kick ass.
Finally building capitol next turn and going after paladins. Day 6 Week 4 Month 1

I unfortunately didnt get logistics. My skills are: basic attack, adv defence, adv light, adv dark, exp war machines.

I'm thinking to go power of endurance/power of speed and fallen knight with master of mind and curses.  Already got haste, cleansing, endurance, righteous might, sorrow, vulnerability, suffering, wasp swarm spells from mage guilds.

I'm attaching some screenshots. If you guys got time, let me know how my build is and any advices are appreciated as always.

Cheers!











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darkprince
darkprince


Adventuring Hero
posted November 16, 2013 09:48 PM
Edited by darkprince at 22:20, 16 Nov 2013.

silentQ said:
I'm attaching some screenshots. If you guys got time, let me know how my build is and any advices are appreciated as always.
Good try for an H5 new comer.

Your build looks promising if you anticipate an encounter with your opponents around lv 25 or higher.

I'm not sure when you are going to crash with others. If an encounter is expected in one or two days, I would aim for a build like the following at lv 14. Getting Expert Dark and look for Curse of the Netherworld (COTN + Battle Dive winning combo/anti-magic Champion/train your own Nercomancer).



silentQ said:
So far i'm following zaio-baio's advices and i've creeped and levelled better than anyone. ballista and crossbowmen kick ass.
Trust me, you won't know what "kick ass" truly means unless you have tried the build I posted above. If you were to play using Vitto again, save your skill slots and wait for Logistics.

If you play H5 more , you will probably aim for lv 25+ around Week 4.
Have fun with Vitto!

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zaio-baio
zaio-baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 17, 2013 12:07 AM

@SilentQ

Just wanna add a few quick tips:

1. Make sure to get the 1st aid tent asap, i would even skip enlightenment for it.

2. Dont get 2 magic skills with the knights, pick light or dark, never both. Otherwise you will lack might skills or logistics.

3. Defence is picked mainly for the primary skill ( +30% melee dmg reduction), so no need to go for stand your groung before having maxed out the main skill.

4. Attack is good to have, but mainly for its secondary perks. So on maps that wont allow you to get lvl 20+ better choose luck over attack. Note that its sometimes gamebreaking to have basic attack + tactics(vs the magic factions). For fast games ( week 3-4 ) feel free to go for flaming arrows. Always get power of haste over retribution if you dont have master of wrath.

5. As far as magic goes, always make sure to have some good mass spells if the game is going to last more than 4 weeks.

6. Always recruit a secondary haven hero and make sure to get expert counter strike + expert trainer with it, so you can train while your main hero is creeping far away from your castle.

7. Dont take too much exp from the chests, once you have 1st aid tent ( around lvl 4-5-6) start choosing gold. + Use a secondary hero to take the chests, no need to waste your main hero's movement for that.

8. Always make sure to have castle + cavaliers week 2 + capitol week 3 day 1( if you start with town lvl 1), or castle + angels week 2 + capitol week 3 day 1 (if you start with town lvl 2). Also make sure to train 20 footmans to priests week 3 day 4-5 ( you need the secondary "training" hero rdy by week 3). Week 4 start training cavaliers ( 20), or train 20 priests again if you are low on money.

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darkprince
darkprince


Adventuring Hero
posted November 17, 2013 02:10 AM
Edited by darkprince at 02:21, 17 Nov 2013.

@silentQ

You mentioned the map Double Confrontation.

Just checked it. There is water! That slows down creeping and transferring troops significantly. The main island is pretty small, not much to do after Week 2.

The least Vitto can do by Day 7





Town




W2D4 get through the Monolith Two Way. It was our friend on the other side... too bad not the enemy.



Vitto and town on W2D7








Vitto and town on W4D1








Vitto and town on W4D7










That's it. Was on my way to get the Tome of Light Magic. Figure the game is already over for the opponents.

My first time playing this map, therefore, this is no where close to optimized creeping. Did not pick Path of War because I was aiming for Snatch (too important for maps with water). This slows down my creeping speed quite a bit. In addition, both running around in the middle to get the most powerful relics (Tomes) and making sure there is no Shackle take priority over leveling.

Double Confrontation is a very competitive map. Whoever is faster can own the game. Getting one Tome usually guarantee the second one, and the third, ... Training is impossible because you have to recruit most troops every week to make sure Vitto can defeat opponents' main forces in the middle.

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted November 17, 2013 02:41 AM
Edited by SKPRIMUS at 02:43, 17 Nov 2013.

silentQ said:
...So far i'm following zaio-baio's advices and i've creeped and levelled better than anyone. ballista and crossbowmen kick ass.
Finally building capitol next turn and going after paladins. Day 6 Week 4 Month 1

I unfortunately didnt get logistics. My skills are: basic attack, adv defence, adv light, adv dark, exp war machines...
zaio-baio said:
... Always get power of haste over retribution if you dont have master of wrath...
LMAO over the PoS bit especially after one of your earliest posts

But, silentQ, I think you should just follow basic advices first since not at expert level like some of the others here.  That is, not to read too much detail into hero skill choices - since advice from those who know creeping & creeping exploits are not so good for ones like yourself.  And you may have mistaken "light/dark" to mean getting both magics which is ...uh no.

Day 6 Week 4 & next turn building capitol (no angels) - that's really tough going if playing on hard!

@darkprince:  really really nice guide there to help (only 7.5hrs after silentQ's post & 1st time play thru map?, wth)
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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silentq
silentq


Hired Hero
umm... yeah.... got milk?
posted November 17, 2013 03:20 AM

Skprimus. No need to be a dick.
I'm not not new to heroes. I've been playing since heroes 2.
My first time playing haven faction in hot seat. Hence I'm sharing experience and looking for advice.
Thanks though, I am sticking to basics.

Got frenzy and define vengeance just now. So I think ill be OK.

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted November 22, 2013 07:08 AM

Great, I chuckle over zaio's Power Of Speed comment when compared to one of his 'young' very early comment long time ago in haven thread & get called a dikch**d <sigh, job done>

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 22, 2013 01:25 PM

It was not SKPRIMUS' intention to offend, not just everyone can claim to be an expert H5 player. Even decent players need some time before they can see some things for themselves and how they work out for them.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted November 23, 2013 12:08 AM

I'm also sorry if silentQ took some of my words like "basic advices" the wrong way.

More wordy explanation:  Trouble with following expert player advice like "take logistics, this skill, that skill etc" is that they are like expert creepers & so lack of some combat skills do not impede them & then their logistics planning allow them to get major artis & then mentor out unneeded final battle skills before big battle.

For many of us, getting better means knowing the minimum army/skills/level to creep this, or creep that, or fight that neutral blocking creep to get that big treasure. (work backwards like I think what I read Samiekl wrote once)

& hope zaio-baio didn't get offended in any way
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus

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