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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: General History
Thread: General History This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
markkur
markkur


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Once upon a time
posted October 09, 2013 11:23 PM
Edited by markkur at 23:25, 09 Oct 2013.

General History

Mons Graupius Identified: The Hunt for Ancient Scotland’s Great Clash of Arms – 83 AD

link

Since there are students here at HC and also some folks like me that enjoy History for various reasons, I thought I would share something I
found very interesting. In short, it is a documented process of identifying Tacitus' famous battlefield by comparing the existing claims about the location and analyzing all the evidence.

The investigation is very well presented and interpretations are well explained. The search for Mons Graupius begins with Tacitis' account and moves through historical Roman topics & technical considerations for the battle-site; such as "Marching-Camps", "Army-size and formation", geographical evidence and other important requirements such as, access to fleet operations.

One last thing; I've named this thread as General History because I would like people to contribute and discuss anything Historical or share anything they've come across recently. i.e. One future contribution I want to make, centers on "a single decision" or "one unforseen factor" that determined our history.

i.e. One obvious "single-decision" was made by Henry VIII. He "had to have a Son" and look what happened to England. I'm sure there are many more than this example.
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xerox
xerox


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posted October 10, 2013 05:41 PM
Edited by xerox at 17:42, 10 Oct 2013.

I'm reading about the British Raj right now and it surprised me how cooperative and perhaps even appreciative the indians were of the british. I also found it interesting that India has had a long history of relatively much religious freedom. The East Indian Company was really reluctant to support protestant missionaries preaching and running christian schools.

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baklava
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Mostly harmless
posted October 10, 2013 06:12 PM
Edited by baklava at 18:13, 10 Oct 2013.

It was a touching story of the power of friendship and how love can overcome any difference.

Love the thread, Mark. Nice idea. Will participate whenever I find the time.
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markkur
markkur


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Once upon a time
posted October 10, 2013 06:40 PM
Edited by markkur at 19:05, 10 Oct 2013.

xerox said:
I'm reading about the British Raj right now and it surprised me how cooperative and perhaps even appreciative the indians were of the British. I also found it interesting that India has had a long history of relatively much religious freedom.


There's a lot of history there. Let me know If you bump into a fellow named Clive and how he is presented to you.

That is a little surprising, I wonder if you're getting a squeaky-clean version of the History there? The British presence had benefits of course but there were many, many abuses and neglects. Greed is an ever present danger for any country but a subjected country, as you know, is even more vulnerable.

Ironically, one of the worst results for India was identical to Ireland's long time fate and always being caught in-between England VS France.  


xerox said:
The East Indian Company was really reluctant to support protestant missionaries preaching and running christian schools.


That is odd but only too a small degree but when I remember that India represented fame and fortune to the English much like Gaul did to Caesar, then my surprise disappears rather quickly.

@Baklava
Quote:
Love the thread, Mark. Nice idea. Will participate whenever I find the time.


Good deal, I'd hoped you and some others that are rather silent these days will participate when you've the time. <imo> This could be an interesting and high-quality thread if we all make the effort.


Quote:
major famines in India


There's another India & Ireland connection. When the great blight hit the potato-crops at the time of another famine in India, the British response was the usual (to both); "the magic of the free-market" will take care of it all...as millions died.  Sadly, much of that hogwash continues today.


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mvassilev
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posted October 10, 2013 07:35 PM

The free market? Let's see...
"In the 17th and 18th centuries, Irish Catholics had been prohibited by the penal laws from owning land, from leasing land; from voting, from holding political office; from living in a corporate town or within 5 mi (8.0 km) of a corporate town, from obtaining education, from entering a profession, and from doing many other things necessary for a person to succeed and prosper in Irish society at the time." - Wikipedia
Does this sound like "free market" to you? Britain also forced landlords to pay for Poor Law relief (not free-market), which led landlords to evict their tenants. Also, keep in mind that the famine started when the Corn Laws (which protected domestic grain producers from foreign competition) were in effect. Again, not free-market.
Now let's look at India. The British East India Company had sole trading rights to the province of Bengal (again, not free-market) before there was a famine. In other famines, Britain actually did intervene to provide relief.

So blaming it on the "free market" is just nonsense.
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markkur
markkur


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Once upon a time
posted October 10, 2013 08:39 PM

mvassilev said:
So blaming it on the "free market" is just nonsense.


I do not blame the free-market but your response I understand.

For more clarity; I am referring only to the "British-governments belief" about the FM-system at that time; that the free-market will fix all the woes. i.e. It was widely believed, that if the British government manipulated the price of any food, (in any way...to feed the starving in Ireland or India) that "interference" would have a negative impact on the trading-markets. They strictly held that red-tape market-dogma and as a result millions died.

Let's not have another free-market discussion in this thread; I only mentioned that difficult subject because the modern world of commerce was relatively new and had very important historical repercussions and lasting impacts. i.e. Many of the Irish driven off their lands and migrating to the U.S., NZ and the land down under where a few of our HC-mates lives.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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posted October 10, 2013 08:41 PM

You said "When the great blight hit the potato-crops at the time of another famine in India, the British response was the usual (to both); 'the magic of the free-market' will take care of it all...", which isn't what actually happened.
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markkur
markkur


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Once upon a time
posted October 10, 2013 09:17 PM

Well, I highly respect the Historian Simon Schama and he said it did happen that way and listed a couple of individuals in the British Government that held that belief. Off the top...iirc Trevalean <sp?>

I don't want to get bogged down on this topic, surely you have something to post; something like I suggested; some moment in History where everything turned on a small event? Fyi, I'm far more interested in hearing what you and others have to share than mulling over my own takes on Western-events.

On that last note; I would also like to hear historical events from eastern Europe, the Near-East, the Mid-East (no current events please)  and Asian history too, not only topics about the West.
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xerox
xerox


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posted October 10, 2013 10:29 PM
Edited by xerox at 22:31, 10 Oct 2013.

markkur said:
That is a little surprising, I wonder if you're getting a squeaky-clean version of the History there? The British presence had benefits of course but there were many, many abuses and neglects. Greed is an ever present danger for any country but a subjected country, as you know, is even more vulnerable.


I'm sure there was a lot of abuse though my impression is that India overall was better off with the British than without them. The reason I'm studying the British Raj is because of an essay I'm writing for religion class. It's about secularisation in India and how hinduism influenced that process and reacted to it. Right now I'm looking into the education, judicial and political system. These largely originate from the british rule.

The reason of the East India Company initially not supporting the missionaries was that they pursued a principle of non-religion. They didn't want a dominion littered with violent religious tension. In the end they had to accept missionary schools. Only secular schools got state grants though and these largely outcompeted indigenous schools.
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markkur
markkur


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Once upon a time
posted October 10, 2013 11:43 PM
Edited by markkur at 23:45, 10 Oct 2013.

xerox said:
I'm sure there was a lot of abuse though my impression is that India overall was better off with the British than without them. The reason I'm studying the British Raj is because of an essay I'm writing for religion class. It's about secularisation in India and how hinduism influenced that process and reacted to it. Right now I'm looking into the education, judicial and political system. These largely originate from the british rule.


I see, I was wondering why your current interest but I did suspect it was for school.

I think you just explained the "good perception" of the past.
Because of the British presence at they time of their own industrialization, India naturally benefitted from Railroads, Telegraph, etc. early-on as well. But, I imagine today it would be the aged, the folks that were alive at the time of Independence or shortly after, that "might" not be quite as diplomatic.

xerox said:
The reason of the East India Company initially not supporting the missionaries was that they pursued a principle of non-religion. They didn't want a dominion littered with violent religious tension. In the end they had to accept missionary schools. Only secular schools got state grants though and these largely outcompeted indigenous schools.


fyi, S.Schama made a good argument about the English not being overly sensitive to the Faith of the Hindus and Muslims; i.e. one  "undersight" that caused armed-conflict was they ignored/overlooked the fact, that both religious groups were offended by their use of pork-fat in the making of rifle cartridges and were outraged upon that discovery.

An interesting side-note for me as an American; was that India became sort of a replacement for British expansionism after we won our independence. So, in a way, it makes perfect sense that the Brits would have been very cautious regarding their "general policies" in India.
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Locksley
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posted October 11, 2013 01:33 PM bonus applied by Corribus on 11 Oct 2013.

Very good initiative Markkur! I’ve always been interested in history and I even spent some time studying history at university just for fun. This has a lot of potential to become a favourite thread.


About the Roman Empire

A few years ago I visited Hadrian’s Wall and the different forts around it, it’s a really fascinating place, great museums and an epic landscape. It’s a Go there! I read the report about the battle at Mont Graupius this morning and it’s a very interesting story about the military life before the Wall was built. Or about a marching army, in contrast to the garrisons. The political game, the context and the things Tacitus had to consider when writing the Agricola was also well described. Criticism of the sources to learn what’s actually known is exciting as you have to bring in more facts about what is known about the period, culture, language, actors and places.

The most interesting things archeologists found around Hadrian’s Wall, in Vindolanda which was occupied during 300 years and became the major town along the wall, are almost 500 wood plates that were used for writing. The wood is still intact because it had been isolated from oxygen deep in the ground. Here are more details.

The texts are a really fascinating slice of life, they cover everyday troubles, tools, crime, invitations, love letters, dinner plans, military reports, trade deals, everything. Since the army contained soldiers from all parts of the empire, and soldiers sometimes moved from one place to another the texts tell much about Roman culture along the whole border from Britain to the Black Sea. All the messages are collected and analyzed in this online catalogue and it’s easy to go to the highlights.

These are just a few good ones:

Letter to Lucius the decurion
"... which is the principal reason for my letter (to express the wish?) that you are vigorous. A friend sent me fifty oysters from Cordonovi (?). In order that ... more speedily ... (Back) To Lucius, decurion from ..."

Birthday invitation from Claudia Severa to Sulpicia Lepidina
"Claudia Severa to her Lepidina greetings. On 11 September, sister, for the day of the celebration of my birthday, I give you a warm invitation to make sure that you come to us, to make the day more enjoyable for me by your arrival, if you are present (?). Give my greetings to your Cerialis. My Aelius and my little son send him (?) their greetings. (2nd hand) I shall expect you, sister. Farewell, sister, my dearest soul, as I hope to prosper, and hail. (Back, 1st hand) To Sulpicia Lepidina, wife of Cerialis, from Severa."

A. List of foodstuffs, B. letter from Cerialis to Brocchus referring to hunting nets
"gruel ...
pork-crackling ...
trotters ..."
Flavius Cerialis to his Brocchus, greetings. If you love me, brother, I ask that you send me some hunting-nets (?) ... you should repair (?) the pieces very strongly."



About the British Empire

In a school project 10 years ago I made a comparison between the Netherlands and Bangladesh, both very densely populated lowlands but with different standard of living.

Here’s an interesting thing: both the Netherlands (and North Italy) used to have a very strong wool trade and textile “industry” already in the Middle Ages, something that made these countries extremely wealthy. With this as a foundation the Netherlands managed to obtain independence from the super power Spain, build a colonial empire and make beautiful art simultaneously during its Golden Age.

England too gained much of its wealth from selling wool to the Netherlands and from making cloth themselves, and eventually the English took over the Dutch position as leading naval power and supreme trader in Asia. And as you know the English textile manufacturing eventually became the starting point of Industrialization.

Until the 19th century Bangladesh too had been a leading producer of cloth, but then the British started to sell the cloth from Manchester in Bangladesh which knocked out the Bengal pre-industry. The British also introduced customs on everything except things they wanted Bangladesh to export (like cotton). This chain of events makes one wonder if Bangladesh, today one of the very poorest countries, could have been a developed country without the British Empire. It’s interesting that textile industry has been outsourced back to Bangladesh and that this seems to be the way out of poverty, even if textile industry no longer is at the core of the world economy.

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markkur
markkur


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Once upon a time
posted October 11, 2013 02:12 PM
Edited by markkur at 19:26, 11 Oct 2013.

Locksley said:
This has a lot of potential to become a favourite thread.


Agreed, Imagine the ground we can cover. I was thinking today about a dozen topics....yeah, I am a bona-fide history-nut.


Locksley said:
The most interesting things archeologists found around Hadrian’s Wall, in Vindolanda which was occupied during 300 years and became the major town along the wall, are almost 500 wood plates that were used for writing. The wood is still intact because it had been isolated from oxygen deep in the ground. Here are more details.

The texts are a really fascinating slice of life, they cover everyday troubles, tools, crime, invitations, love letters, dinner plans, military reports, trade deals, everything. Since the army contained soldiers from all parts of the empire, and soldiers sometimes moved from one place to another the texts tell much about Roman culture along the whole border from Britain to the Black Sea. All the messages are collected and analyzed in this online catalogue and it’s easy to go to the highlights.


This is one of my favorite sites too. Thanks for sharing the notes & quotes; as many times as I have heard quotes from the records there, 2 of the 3 were new to me and I'll have to take a good LOOK of course. Also, I recently came across another Documentary (maybe two) that added more to the story of the fort there. Look-up iirc "How the Celts saved Britain" (2-part) when you have the time; it's mainly about the impact of monasteries in Britain (check out the tidal-mill)but it has a nice bit on what happened in Vindolanda & the Wall after the Legions left. I'm sure you'll enjoy the account. The Host is Dan Snow from Battlefield Britain...another Doc I highly recommend, if you've not seen the series.



Locksley said:
trotters ..."

We should probably avoid this, makes me think of laxatives.


Locksley said:

Until the 19th century Bangladesh too had been a leading producer of cloth, but then the British started to sell the cloth from Manchester in Bangladesh which knocked out the Bengal pre-industry. The British also introduced customs on everything except things they wanted Bangladesh to export (like cotton). This chain of events makes one wonder if Bangladesh, today one of the very poorest countries, could have been a developed country without the British Empire. It’s interesting that textile industry has been outsourced back to Bangladesh and that this seems to be the way out of poverty, even if textile industry no longer is at the core of the world economy.



Good reporting! During my long study of the U.K. Wool has repeatedly been the chief source of income. My last study of History took me to Wales and guess what? Wool was very important there too. Cotton sure changed things didn't it?

Btw, the spinning wheel is on the Indian flag and I think it was Ol' Mahatma that was responsible for that and as you've pointed out...for good reason.

EditTo toss something else in the mix; I'm not sure why, since I hate killing and all that, but I've always been fascinated by Battleships. A while back I came across some footage of Bismarck that I'd not seen before. Don't know where this Artist got it from but the footage and the Art are both pretty amazing. Part of the film is the naval action against the Hood.

BB
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


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What if Elvin was female?
posted October 11, 2013 02:42 PM

I heed you to take a look at the previews of Factions available at the Europa Barbarorum forums. The people behind the mod are serious about history. Here's an example preview of the Areuakoi. You won't be disappointed.
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markkur
markkur


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Once upon a time
posted October 11, 2013 06:24 PM
Edited by markkur at 18:32, 11 Oct 2013.

JoonasTo said:
You won't be disappointed.


You're correct I wasn't...what an awesome effort! I really like that they cared to do this for a game. Celt is such a catch-all word; it's great they decided to get things accurate. Really high quality work.

@Locksley

That Vindolanda Tablets Online is a wonderful public tool. This is one way I'm thankful for new Tech.

@ All

About Battleships, I mean I like all eras, e.g. the Ancient ships where sea-battles were land-battles on water(like Antium), the Mary Rose, Trafalgar, and on up to the few clashes of the world-wars at Jutland and the Battle of Leyte Gulf. Like I said, I don't like killing but something about warships at battle on the Seas is compelling to me for some reason.

About a decade ago my brother and I visited U.S.S. Pennsylvania and it was huge. I just cant imagine being on those ships when they were in action. For me there's a "sort"a chivalry aspect to this; since I think planes and bombing have made Warfare even worse. i.e. Drones.

Edit= Ya know its funny, now I have a game with a Battleship in the HC ad slot.  
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markkur
markkur


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Once upon a time
posted October 13, 2013 07:13 AM
Edited by markkur at 15:19, 13 Oct 2013.

Fate and History

In the opening post, I mentioned that I’ve noticed, that it is often a single decision or some outside factor that shaped the History we now know. To me, this is very fascinating and investigations can reveal how many important events in our recorded History were primarily determined by some single factor.

Here we go; the Year is 1066, and it is arguably the best known Year in British History. Upon the retelling of the old story, immediately, William “the Conqueror” takes center stage and for very good reason, he defeated the Saxon forces in a long and brutal battle, weeks later was crowned King of England on Christmas day and the Norman dynasty that followed completely changed the historical record of Britain. More impacts followed as the French-speaking court delayed the progress of the English language, historic Saxon literature was outdated, vanquished and all but lost and finally the feudal system changed life in merry old Engla-lond.

Not since the distant Roman conquest had England been hit by such a sweeping change. By contrast, the Viking invasion of the previous centuries were merely ripples of change compared to the transformation of Britain, now known as the Norman Conquest.

As powerful as that history is for me, it’s the lesser known events that happened before and during Duke William’s invasion that really grab my attention, and reveal to me, that Fate is a stickler for the details.

First, I’ll start with a brother. Not my brother or your brother but the future King of England‘s brother; Harold Godwinson’s little brother Tostig. Now, I don’t know how big or little he was and don’t care but one thing rings loud and true in the records and that’s he was the typical rich-family-brat, since he often acts like a spoilt kid, welding power without finesse. You know what I mean, we’ve all met families where a younger sibling seemed to get away with murder. I’ve always thought that meant;  the parents were a little tired and frazzled by the time that baby came around.<L>

Anyway, back to Tostig. In 1055, he became the Earl of Northumbria and quickly gained a reputation for being aggressive and heavy-handed and for several reasons, he was hated by the rest of the Northern nobles; his involvement in murders, cementing his fate.

Brotherhood aside, Harold had different plans and the future King wisely chose to be much more diplomatic with the other Barons. Wanting to rule, will often force a man to become more reasonable and more willing to accept other viewpoints.

The future King had to know that his younger brother was acting like the toughest kid on the block. He would have known first-hand that with Tostig, it was intimidation, not tact and diplomacy that ruled the ambitious young Baron, as evidenced by Tostig having two sons of the Nobles assassinated, when they visited him “under safe conduct“. Not exactly the image any I-want-to-be-King would ever want near his own ambitious plans.

Ok, so here’s the stage;
1. Harold wants to be King, he needs as much support as he can get, because as you should know about circa 1066,  the sitting King, Edward the Confessor, is not well, expected to soon die and the succession to the throne of England…undecided.
2. The Lord’s of the North rebel against King Edward because of Tostig’s actions. Harold as right-hand man for Edward goes alone and makes peace with the rebel’s; he already knows his brother cannot be The Duke of Northumbria.

Harold’s decision:

Since he knows that William the snow (lol)has already said he will take the crown of England, this division in his own backyard must be ended and quickly.

***He recommends that his “own brother” be banished  from England.***

{time out} I had said “one decision or one factor” well as you know, often calamites and crashes are the result of several interdependent actions or factors coming together into one big explosion.

Ok, Tostig’s banned, Harold patches things up, and becomes King of England in Jan. 1066. Everyone’s happy. Well…except the “tanner’s daughters...son” across the water.

Now, let’s look at William and a decision of his own.
He’s not doing very well at “selling his invasion idea” in Normandy, after a short while, he’s not getting very many takers…too few to take England.
In my mind’s eye, he then asks himself a very important question; “what can I do to get many more knights and warriors to commit to this? Answer, “Seek the Pope’s blessing.”

This was a brilliant move, since William had been a shrewd supporter of the Church in building up his allegiance, now he could “call-in a debt”, so to speak, because of this past “generosity.” it was now easy to persuade the Pope that Harold was a breaker of vows, and that he had no regard for sacred relics, in short, the Saxon King was more the Anti-Christ than Christian King. William got what he wanted, now, he had the Pope’s Banner in his hand and soon he had the army he needed.

Back to Tostig. What did he do after being exiled? Let me guess; he asked himself this question; “Who will I seek help from?”

Well, no doubt he knows, someone else has an interest in the crown of England and it’s not William, he’s not thinking of His’ brother Harold of course, he’s thinking of another Harold…King Harald III, Hardrada of Norway. Here’s the answer he needs.

Since Hardrada may have had his own claim to the throne, whether wishful thinking or not, Tostig was able to impress King Harald and persuade the Viking warrior to take the Crown of England. With this new alliance, Tostig sails back to England and at first, exacts some sweet revenge at Gate Fulford;  Hardrada's army captures York. Now, things are looking up for younger brother and getting a bit messy for older brother.<L>

Now here’s where the historical soup starts boiling and really gets tasty. Various pinches of weather on the coast simmer and plans evaporate and more are added, a tasty tang in the North turns bitter after armor is shed, the snow decides; “lets add some forts to the stew“, the Viking decides…“let’s toss in a sprinkle of slaves“; and finally the cooking-fire of Fate burns even hotter, as the Saxon has to mash two main ingredients, while all the while, the spoon of doom is stirring everything together in the pot for one final outcome. One dash of luck can change anything and then…everything.

I’ll stop there and just say, now it’s time for the what ifs?

What if Tostig had not been a jerk?
Harold sided with Tostig?
Tostig had decided on France and Wine?
Edward named Harold as King?
William didn’t think of asking the Pope
Hardrada waited for another year to invade?
The Weather didn’t favor William till the next year?
The Saxons rode horses?
Harold had waited for reinforcements after Stamford?
Harolds troops had not disobeyed his commands?

Btw, a few historical notes:

Just like the Battle of Bunker Hill from the American Revolution is an error, since it was not fought at Bunker Hill but at or near Breed's hill; neither of these famous battle-names are correct.

* There was no village at Stamford Bridge in 1066 or in the Domesday
Book of 1086. The name described… a crossing point over the River
Derwent, with the words stone, ford and bridge. So, Stone-ford-
bridge.

The Battle of Hastings is not accurate. There is today, a town called Battle that is nearer the site, but more importantly, from the battle's-account, "Senlac Hill" would have been the accurate name for posterity. That name would have meant…the hill at the lake of blood.

Hope you enjoyed the read. Cheers
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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


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Scourge of God
posted October 13, 2013 11:42 AM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 11:43, 13 Oct 2013.

Quote:
battle on the Seas is compelling to me for some reason.


Recently I adopted a ship fetish as well, albeit mine may not be as strong rooted as yours. My body and interests work in 'phases', I have a phase for not necessarily periods in history, but for particular aspects of certain eras, and when I hit a new phase (or return to an old one) I simply must absorb myself in it, books, games anything.

My most two recent phases was Napoleonic era (100 years prior and afterward) and an insatiable lust for Pre WW1 battleships (not long before WW1, I dig them factories on water like you wouldn't believe). These were new phases, and I was reluctant since I've never liked guns, for I had a deep love for archers. (but something about tight organized formations of men with muskets just sent me riling, so I caved).

My phases (off the top of my head)
Roman Phase: And simply everything from social and political aspects and then to war. Eg: The battle of Cannae whereupon the Roman army of around 100,000 men were obliterated crippled the army, but it also had effects "back at home". Widows for example were growing extremely wealthy, and they didn't hesitated to show it, living lavishly and being carried around in carriages, this pronged the Senate to take action, both because the coffers were empty, and because it was deemed that it was 'distasteful' for women to have such huge gains from such a tragic national disaster. The 'Oppian law' was erected, which resulted in bans on carriages inside Rome, (in effect up to a mile around Rome) and inheritance for widows was removed.

It was true that some women sought to use their money to elevate themselves via the purchase of lavish goods, however there were some who contributed their personal wealth for the war effort, (for example a woman named Busa fed 10,000 survivors at her own expense). After 20 years and victory over Carthage, this law was still in effect, and women started to become very annoyed and after much struggle, two statesman decided to champion each side. (most of this is from a book titled "Women's life in Athens and Rome")

I will quote out the two arguments, because even by modern standards I regard them as powerful, and some of the points (/ideas) are very relevant in modern society too.

(written by Livy a Roman historian)
Cato's argument. (In favor of the Oppian Law)

Quote:
"If each man of us, fellow citizens, had established that the rights and authority of the husband should be held over the mother of his own family, we should have less difficulty with women in general; now, at home our freedom is conquered by female fury, here in the Forum it is bruised and trampled upon, and because we have not contained the individuals, we fear the lot...

Indeed, I blushed when, a short while ago, I walked through the midst of a band of women. I should have said, 'What kind of behavior is this? Running around in public, blocking streets, and speaking to other women's husbands! Could you not have asked our own husbands the same thing at home? Are you more charming in public with others' husbands than at home with your own? And yet, it is not fitting even at home for you to concern yourselves with what laws are passed or repealed here.'

Our ancestors did not want women to conduct any - not even private - business without a guardian; they wanted them to be under the authority of parents, brothers, or husbands; we (the gods help us!) even now let them snatch at the government and meddle in the Forum and our assemblies. What are they doing now on the streets and crossroads, if they are not persuading the tribunes to vote for repeal? Give the reins to their unbridled nature and this unmastered creature, and hope that they will put limits on their own freedom. They want freedom, nay license, in all things.

If they are victorious now, what will they not attempt? As soon as they begin to be your equals, they will have become your superiors... What honest excuse is offered, pray, for this womanish rebellion? 'That we might shine with gold and purple,' says one of them, 'that we might ride through the city in coaches on holidays as though triumphant over the conquered law and the votes which we captured by tearing them from you...'

Pity that husband - the one who gives in and the one who stands firm! What he refuses, he will see given by another man. Now they publicly solicit other women's husbands, and, what is worse, they ask for a law and votes, and certain men give them what they want...

I vote that the Oppian Law should not, in the smallest measure, be repealed; whatever course you take, may all the gods make you happy with it."

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Lucius Valerius

Quote:
"I shall defend the motion, not ourselves, against whom the consul has hurled this charge. He has called this assemblage 'succession' and sometimes 'womanish rebellion,' because the matrons have publicly asked you, in peacetime when the state is happy and prosperous, to repeal a law passed against them during the straits of war. Not too far back in history, in the most recent war, when we needed funds, did not the widows' money assist the treasury?...

What, after all, have they done? We have proud ears indeed, if, while masters do not scorn the appeals of slaves, we are angry when honorable women ask something of us...

Since our matrons lived for so long by the highest standards of behavior without any law, what risk is there that, once it is repealed, they will yield to luxury? Shall we forbid only women to wear purple? When you, a man, may use purple on your clothes, will you not allow the mother of your family to have a purple cloak, and will your horse be more beautifully saddled than your wife is garbed?...

By Hercules! All are unhappy and indignant when they see the finery denied them permitted to the wives of the Latin allies, when they see them adorned with gold and purple, when those other women ride through the city and they follow on foot, as though the power belonged to the other women's cities, not to their own. This could wound the spirits of men; what do you think it could do to the spirits of women, whom even little things disturb?

They cannot partake of magistracies, priesthoods, triumphs, badges of office, gifts, or spoils of war; elegance, finery, and beautiful clothes are women's badges, in these they find joy and take pride; this our forebears called the women's world...

Of course, if you repeal the Oppian Law, you will not have the power to prohibit that which the law now forbids; daughters, wives, even some men's sisters will be less under your authority - [But] never, while her men are well, is a woman's slavery cast off. It is for the weaker sex to submit to whatever you advise. The more power you possess, all the more moderately should you exercise your authority."


(the motion for repeal was at first rejected, but then accepted due to the overwhelming pressure)


I've also studied the conquest of France by Henry the Fifth during my 'English' phase, before this all I knew of Henry V was that he won a great battle at Agincourt after an unsuccessful siege, but now I learn that he actually conquered France and held it together till his death through much toil, ( he was also crowned king of France). Now I understand why Henry the VIII was so adamant on enforcing his title of being king of France, I had previously assumed that he considered himself king of France because of William Duke of Normandy. This was a clearly false presumption since Normandy (north land?) was gifted to vikings by France, so any descendent from Norman rulers will not have claim to the French throne or lineage. (or at least no strong claim, the royal families are essentially a massive inbreeding ground, so it's not unthinkable that the English monarchs had some French blood in them, but it was Henry the V that actually established England as the rulers of France.

But there's soooo much bloody more, the fourth crusade where the Magyars were stabbed in the back by their Catholic allies for monetary reasons. (siege of Zara) The siege of Nándorfehérvár,(I recall that picture back from school, it depicts a national hero flinging himself to his death in order to take down a Turk who's trying to pin his flag) back when it was under Hungarian control, ( White fortress/castle/bastion ) the reason why all bells ring at noon is to commemorate this great victory over the Ottoman turks, forever has Hungary been the vanguard of Catholicism, my ancestors held the line till their strength was spent. (not really, we had petty nobles that failed to stand together due to petty rivalries: same old)

Quote:
"Make the strangers welcome in this land,
let them keep their languages and customs,
for weak and fragile is the realm which is based
on a single language or on a single set of customs."
St. Stephen in a letter to his son St. Emeric (Imre), 1036 AD


Hungarian Empire came into being by want, not by force. When we came under the joint rule with Austria, it was a concept that the Austrians could never comprehend, one of the reasons for the Hungarian war for independence/revolution in 1848. We were strong, defeating one Austrian army after the next, and crushing the Russians whenever they dared transgress despite having out-dated weapons and facing professional armies. However the seemingly innumerable horde that the Russians and Austrians threw against our nation took a heavy toll.

Most of Hungary's history I had to gather through independent research and some from family member since I spent only a brief part of my child-hood in Hungary, and my knowledge was scarce, but I love it all the same.

____________
"What is a man? A miserable pile of secrets."

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted October 13, 2013 04:02 PM

Tsar-Ivor said:
... I simply must absorb myself in it, books, games anything.


Same here...I like diving in the deep end. And have the phases too, my latest has been on the Welsh revolts and now I'm all over the place...I guess that's a phase too.

Tsar-Ivor said:
The battle of Cannae whereupon the Roman army of around 100,000 men were obliterated


Hannibal was an incredible general, no doubt about it; I've read a lot about Carthage, there's even a famous document from antiquity that we can read but I forget the name.

Thanks for those two arguments on womens-rights, I had not read them, I had to laugh when I saw the 1st was Cato's. Wasn't he Carthage's greatest chum? <jk>


Tsar-Ivor said:
I've also studied the conquest of France by Henry the Fifth...


He's a very interesting read, more my idea of a King...no doubt. I've read many of his letters during Owain Glyn Dyrs rising, so even when he was only 16 he was already "in the field" and getting the needed lessons in becoming a leader.

Btw, when watching a recent Doc on the development of the English language, it was pointed out that it was Henry V that changed the court language from French to English and that started with a letter he sent home when he was at Agincourt.

Tsar-Ivor said:
... But there's soooo much bloody more, the fourth crusade where the Magyars were stabbed in the back by their Catholic allies for monetary reasons. (siege of Zara)...


I did not know much about Eastern-Europe until I started looking into the causes of WWI. Since then, I've been learning more and more, like the Balkans (even present day impacts) and recently I was very surprised (although I should not have been) by some of the History in that entire region. It is very rich and behind many events lies a debt that the West owes to many, many historical figures there. i.e. Vlaad the Impaler; when I was young, I thought Count Dracul was just a Hollywood vampire. That man was indeed ruthless but he was trying to survive at a time when life WAS ruthless; there were very few places back then for touchy-feely.<L>


Tsar-Ivor said:
Most of Hungary's history I had to gather through independent research and some from family member since I spent only a brief part of my child-hood in Hungary, and my knowledge was scarce, but I love it all the same.



Actually I've found that's the best anyway(if you have the time) since it feels more like your on some sort of data-collection adventure, sifting through stuff and looking for clues.
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Locksley
Locksley


Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
posted October 16, 2013 04:01 PM
Edited by Locksley at 16:26, 16 Oct 2013.

Your posts here were nice input for a history day, so here comes a 3 posts in 1 thing covering Rome, Battleships and Fate and history.
Tsar-Ivor said:

My body and interests work in 'phases', I have a phase for not necessarily periods in history, but for particular aspects of certain eras, and when I hit a new phase (or return to an old one) I simply must absorb myself in it, books, games anything.
I can feel a new Roman phase starting right now, a renaissance perhaps Those Oppian laws were crazy stuff, interesting that even the guy opposing the laws used arguments that today are considered to be of a mentality that oppress women. I think I’ve seen that book you mentioned on my local library, I’ll look for it next time I’m there.
    A cool thing with the Vindolanda tablets is that Claudia Severa, who made the birthday invitation to Sulpicia Lupidina, added short personal messages after the texts made by her writer, which according to the site: “Almost certainly, therefore, these are the earliest known examples of writing in Latin by a woman.”

I'd like to recommend everyone interested in Roman Britannia to read the exhibition and reference sections of the online catalogue where the findings from Vindolanda are collected and explained in a series of articles.

JoonasTo said:
I heed you to take a look at the previews of Factions available at the Europa Barbarorum forums. The people behind the mod are serious about history. Here's an example preview of the Areuakoi. You won't be disappointed.
Impressive , bye bye HC, I found a new forum At least starting a new campaign in TW Rome is getting more and more likely.


Battleships
Tsar-Ivor said:
My most two recent phases was Napoleonic era (100 years prior and afterward) and an insatiable lust for Pre WW1 battleships (not long before WW1, I dig them factories on water like you wouldn't believe). These were new phases, and I was reluctant since I've never liked guns, for I had a deep love for archers.  (but something about tight organized formations of men with muskets just sent me riling, so I caved).
Yay! You like Locksley in Sherwood!??

And it was a good movie Markkur starting with Bismarck vs HMS Hood, lol. Those ships were HUGE! The ships’ journeys to faraway places and all the knowledge that was needed for sailing make old ships interesting in my opinion. When I was a kid I read much about this, both fact and fiction. I think there’s something sad about battleships. Nations put so much pride and resources on them, they look invincible but they aren’t.


The end of Kronan, one of the five largest ships of its time goes down in a battle outside Kalmar. 800 men perished, i.e. 10 % of the Swedish navy and probably more than the entire population of Kalmar. Divers have brought a lot of material from the bottom which is at display in a really good museum in Kalmar. You can really see how people lived, not only on the ship.

Vasa is is a better known catastrophe. It was too top heavy and sunk almost directly after setting sail for the first time, when caught by a wind stronger than a light breeze. The wreck was brought up after 333 years.




Fate and History in England, France, Hungary and Sweden
Markkur said:
Hope you enjoyed the read. Cheers
I did. I think you’re right when saying that “Fate is a stickler for the details” and that it’s fascinating to investigate the importance of single factors. For me that’s when history gets interesting, when I can follow a story and get to know the people, and at the same time get to know the time they live in.

The story about Tostig, Harold, William and Hardrada hints about many things of interest. The political and religious ideas about what can make war justified and about what’s important for loyalty and keeping society together, including the manly warrior culture focusing on dynasties, power and honour. The physical world they lived in with its weather, ships, horses, forts and other everyday things that were taken for granted, but for us it’s interesting to discover those things when we try to understand why things happened.
Markkur said:
I’ll stop there and just say, now it’s time for the what ifs?

What if Tostig had not been a jerk?
Harold sided with Tostig?
Tostig had decided on France and Wine?
Edward named Harold as King?
William didn’t think of asking the Pope?
Hardrada waited for another year to invade?
The Weather didn’t favor William till the next year?
The Saxons rode horses?
Harold had waited for reinforcements after Stamford?
Harolds troops had not disobeyed his commands?
I think your list of question points out that even if culture and physical things matters when something happens, much depends on whether the “right” persons are at the “right” place or position.
Tsar-Ivor said:
I've also studied the conquest of France by Henry the Fifth during my 'English' phase, before this all I knew of Henry V was that he won a great battle at Agincourt after an unsuccessful siege, but now I learn that he actually conquered France and held it together till his death through much toil, ( he was also crowned king of France). Now I understand why Henry the VIII was so adamant on enforcing his title of being king of France, I had previously assumed that he considered himself king of France because of William Duke of Normandy. This was a clearly false presumption since Normandy (north land?) was gifted to vikings by France, so any descendent from Norman rulers will not have claim to the French throne or lineage. (or at least no strong claim, the royal families are essentially a massive inbreeding ground, so it's not unthinkable that the English monarchs had some French blood in them, but it was Henry the V that actually established England as the rulers of France.
This is exciting in the same way as the road to the Battles 1066, It’s quite surprising how important the dynasties were in the way people thought. Everything should and could be motivated by picking up dynastic claims from the inbreeding ground. With so many layers on layers of potential there was always something that worked. Henry V used his ancestor Edward III’s (E3) claim that his father (E2) had been married to a French princess without any French male relatives, but of course, in France the ruling monarchs came up with equally justifiable reasons to why E3 wasn’t their king.
    BTW, I read in a book that the English/British kings had a claim on the French throne until around 1800 when France became a republic, and the UK was created as an union between the Kingdom of Great Britain (founded 1707 by the kingdoms England and Scotland) and the Kingdom of Ireland (created in 1542 by Henry VIII).

Those glimpses of Hungarian history were nice, Tsar-Ivor. St Stephen’s life story is a very good reading. I think East European history will become much better known in the West soon. There’s also all those ancient legends which gets much attention because they fuel modern conflicts (today’s equivalent to dynastic claims?) which is kind of hard for me to understand. Sweden and Denmark have a long history of wars but in the 19th century nationalism became more important than our kings’ and nobles’ dynastic claims and personal feuds, and all the Nordic peoples and leaders started to see each other as family members. Anyway, like Markkur said there’s so much more than causes to world war in Eastern Europe’s history and culture that is interesting.

Historical events like the Battle of Hastings or the 1848 revolutions are interesting because by studying them one can learn surprisingly much about one’s own time and about why we do like we do. A Swedish example: King Karl X Gustav were in the 1650’s waging war in Poland (whose national anthem mentions this occupation), but other countries worried about the Swedish successes. When Denmark declared war, the king left the Polish mess and marched with his army to Jutland, the Danish peninsula in the autumn. A bad move, because there was a severe risk that the army would be trapped there during the winter. But the winter became extremely cold and all the Danish waters froze and the army could march across the ice to Copenhagen, and Denmark lost the lands that are now western and southern Sweden. Two years later the king tried to conquer the rest of Denmark but died in a lung disease, which saved Denmark and/or also prevented a war with an international coalition that easily could’ve defeated Sweden. So that's why I'm Swedish, and can go to Denmark's capital in only 11 minutes by train over the Öresund bridge.


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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Legendary Hero
posted October 16, 2013 04:28 PM

<< I have a phase for not necessarily periods in history, but for particular aspects of certain eras, and when I hit a new phase (or return to an old one) I simply must absorb myself in it, books, games anything. >>

Same here, Tsar. After my zealous phases regarding the CSA, Byzantine Empire, Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, I now find myself more absorbed in the late 18th and early 19th century period.

Markkur's posts are very interesting as well.

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted October 16, 2013 05:58 PM

A note about the "world's largest battleship."

I remembered reading/hearing about the threat that Bismarck posed on the seas...as the world's largest battleship and wondered; what about the Yamato? Then it dawned on me; In 1940, the year of the story of the Bismarck, Yamato had been built in secrecy, so her size was not known for a long time. btw, like Hood and Bismarck earlier, the Yamato's resting-place has recently been found. (the underwater-tech is amazing) Also, iirc, I just saw a discovery of a "Dutch?" merchant ship in the Baltic that is perfectly preserved.

Anyway, back to BBs; a tidbit on how big...big was;

Here's a quick comparison;

Yamato displaced 64,000 long-tonnes vs Bismarck at 41,000 long tonnes, and compared to Bismarck, Yamoto, was 12 metres or 39 feet longer.

For a clearer picture about Yamato's size; until WWII destroyers were limited to 1500 tonnes. (in comparison) One of Yamato's 18" guns weighed 147.3 Tonnes x 9 guns = 1325.7 Tonnes for the total weight of her main guns.

Of possible interest;

List of battleships by country
warships

Btw, Since I had read the story of Vasa, years back...even I was a little offended that Vasa was not linked at this site. But, then I remember folks have to get the info correct and updated where necessary and to wiki's credit, the page (List of capital ships of Sweden) is flagged with "this article has multiple issues" :>

Seems I'm a little too cantankerous at times.

Moving on, another very good post and I'm glad that all of you have made such fine contributions. We don't always have to do major posting to add some zest to this thread; hopefully some others will contribute too, when they can.

@ Drakon-Deus
Quote:
Same here, Tsar. After my zealous phases regarding the CSA, Byzantine Empire, Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, I now find myself more absorbed in the late 18th and early 19th century period.


There is so much there. My study of WWI also took me back to the "beginning of Germany" and many other places around the Globe. I am so bored with modern entertainment, I was forced to head back into time, to "discover good stories." Even though I adore Faerie-Stories of Myth and Lore, Historical-Tales being about real-events, doesn't knock any of the shine off for me...it just adds another great venue to explore.
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