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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Why Heroes IV is the best game in the series
Thread: Why Heroes IV is the best game in the series This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT»
BrennusWhiskey
BrennusWhiskey


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
The quickest H4 player
posted June 02, 2016 08:31 AM

OhforfSake said:


Most of us here likes HoMM IV, it's not back in the days where people would casually bash the game anymore. It just doesn't mean we all favor HoMM IV compared to other installments, and I think it make sense to explain why that is.


I would not speak on behalf of the most of the people here because the majority would prefer to lynch me when I say that h4 is my favorite game

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted June 02, 2016 10:51 AM

I really have no issues at all with you favoring h4 but THIS, is total BS (the part about h3).
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BrennusWhiskey
BrennusWhiskey


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
The quickest H4 player
posted June 02, 2016 11:33 AM

I read here much more absurd things about h4.
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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted June 02, 2016 12:00 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 12:00, 02 Jun 2016.

BrennusWhiskey said:
I read here much more absurd things about h4.

Well Heroes 4 was imo worse than H3 but still a good game. I did enjoy it a lot.
My pros with H4:
More interesting skillsets available both map wise and combat wise.
New battle system with more tactical decisions to be made.
Need I mention the awesome music?
Towns changing with the environment and the tactical building aspect.
More balanced skillsets, map and combat wise.
Interesting campaigns.

Cons:
Necropolis got buffed beyond what I call overpowered.
Morale Swings can decide the entire match before it has even begun, eg all army units but the enemy cyclop stack gets no morale at the start and that one rock destroyes everything.
Heroes being far too powerful and far too crucial to lose.
Due to the fewer amount of units and restricted building choices, certain units are just way too powerful, eg vampires, genies and cyclopses.
Spell balance - is a joke and spellpower is through the roof.
Lack of upgradable buildings - just why remove the sweet feeling of building up your town?
Heroes are all the same, no specialty for anyone.
Stealth is even a greater gamebreaker than diplomacy in H3.

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BrennusWhiskey
BrennusWhiskey


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
The quickest H4 player
posted June 03, 2016 09:58 AM

The Kings



I can answer you only from perspective online game. (Game vs AI is useless).

Ebonheart said:


Necropolis got buffed beyond what I call overpowered."



You can choose death in every game. Its not a problem to beat it.

Ebonheart said:

"Morale Swings can decide the entire match before it has even begun, eg all army units but the enemy cyclop stack gets no morale at the start and that one rock destroyes everything.


Yes morale is very powerful in h4 thats why you should try to have good tactician in your army.

Ebonheart said:

Heroes being far too powerful and far too crucial to lose.


Heroes are powerful thats right. But when you lose your army there is no need to continue game because your opponent has heroes at your level or much more powerful than yours. Many players dont know how to protect their heroes eg. by immortality potions.


Ebonheart said:

Due to the fewer amount of units and restricted building choices, certain units are just way too powerful, eg vampires, genies and cyclopses.


These creatures are too weak to fight 4th level armies of angels or devils...

Ebonheart said:

Spell balance - is a joke and spellpower is through the roof.


Every school of magic has powerful spells on 5th level. In league the majority games is random.

Ebonheart said:

Lack of upgradable buildings - just why remove the sweet feeling of building up your town?


I dont need that really.

Ebonheart said:

Heroes are all the same, no specialty for anyone.


You can specialize your heroes in different way dependent on things you find on current map (random altairs, arties etc.)

Ebonheart said:

Stealth is even a greater gamebreaker than diplomacy in H3.


Only GM stealth is really powerful but it is hard to achieve in normal "M" online map.


But I am only online player so I understand that vs AI these things are useless and game is just boring.



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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted June 03, 2016 12:21 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 12:24, 03 Jun 2016.

BrennusWhiskey said:
I can answer you only from perspective online game. (Game vs AI is useless).
But I am only online player so I understand that vs AI these things are useless and game is just boring.

I have played online aswell and while I can agree to some things for certain scenarios, I get the feeling you only play M maps.
Remember that you have L/XL aswell and that the differences between just M and L are huge.
I love H4 aswell (and I don't see why people would lynch you for loving it), but in a different way than H3. If I want to enjoy a good casual single game,  I will turn to H4 but if I want to play online, I knock on the H3 door.

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BrennusWhiskey
BrennusWhiskey


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
The quickest H4 player
posted June 03, 2016 01:56 PM

Ebonheart said:
I have played online aswell and while I can agree to some things for certain scenarios, I get the feeling you only play M maps.



We play only M maps with some exception to S, exactly to keep the balance in the game. Ofc league maps have to be balanced and tested online.

THE KINGS

 
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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted June 03, 2016 02:17 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 14:17, 03 Jun 2016.

I am glad you enjoy it, but this is the weak spot of it. M maps are not so balanced either. Certain towns benefit a lot more on a quick pased game and the same can be said for hero skills etc.
Although from my experience, the biggest issue with M maps is hero rushing, it's almost like the old gremlin rush in H3.


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BrennusWhiskey
BrennusWhiskey


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
The quickest H4 player
posted June 03, 2016 02:36 PM

Ebonheart said:
I am glad you enjoy it, but this is the weak spot of it. M maps are not so balanced either. Certain towns benefit a lot more on a quick pased game and the same can be said for hero skills etc.
Although from my experience, the biggest issue with M maps is hero rushing, it's almost like the old gremlin rush in H3.




Its possible only on some unbalanced maps with weak guards. You won't find such a problem on any of league map.
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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted June 03, 2016 03:12 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 15:13, 03 Jun 2016.

You can find that problem on a league map, because there are so many spell/tactic combinations that can win games.
Another problem is that if you buff the guards, then towns like Might, Life and Chaos are far worse off than Order, Death and Nature.
Which bring us to the next issue, the type of guards. Eg 200 ogres for Might is a big issue whereas Order can take such an army with just a slow+poison+fly combo.
Which then brings us to the issue of stealth, the more you buff the guards - the more valuable stealth becomes. And in its turn, the more you nerf them, the worse stealth becomes  while tactics/nobility/quick attack skills/spells grows in power.

On a side note Brennus, I understand that you enjoy H4 and I respect that, everyone to their own taste as they say.
I love the more tactical challenge in H4 compared to H3 but when it comes to online gameplay and all the available tactics, I shudder.

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BrennusWhiskey
BrennusWhiskey


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
The quickest H4 player
posted June 03, 2016 03:23 PM
Edited by BrennusWhiskey at 15:26, 03 Jun 2016.

Ebonheart said:
You can find that problem on a league map, because there are so many spell/tactic combinations that can win games.
Another problem is that if you buff the guards, then towns like Might, Life and Chaos are far worse off than Order, Death and Nature.
Which bring us to the next issue, the type of guards. Eg 200 ogres for Might is a big issue whereas Order can take such an army with just a slow+poison+fly combo.
Which then brings us to the issue of stealth, the more you buff the guards - the more valuable stealth becomes. And in its turn, the more you nerf them, the worse stealth becomes  while tactics/nobility/quick attack skills/spells grows in power.

On a side note Brennus, I understand that you enjoy H4 and I respect that, everyone to their own taste as they say.
I love the more tactical challenge in H4 compared to H3 but when it comes to online gameplay and all the available tactics, I shudder.



If this would be true you could choose only a map and race and you would win all games on it. (I take always random).
But you can't You won't find such winning combination
Just try that - map pool is large
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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted June 03, 2016 05:04 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 17:08, 03 Jun 2016.

Not exactly, but certain towns will always do well regardless of weak or strong guard stacks while others will suffer.
Let's not also forget the absurd amount of tactics and tactic-twisted use that can be employed, be it in combat or on the map.

Gosh, all this debating sure is fun but it made me do the misstake to open my old H4 spell-rule file and in a flash, all the horrible memories of the H4 rule system popped up.

Just look at this study on magic mirror and its rules...

"If X casts Fireball on group Y consisting of say 5, if all the 5 creatures or heroes got magic mirror then all 5 will reflect the fireball back at 50% damage (if all survives the initial blast) back to the caster. If the caster dies after say, 2/5 reflections then the remaining 3/5 reflections will reflect to the corpse around the target (It will continue to do so even if there are NO creatures left alive to hit).
Magic Mirror can reflect Sorrow from melee attack. Witch King Specialty cannot be reflected.
Magic mirror has no cap on reflections and no cap on reflections per troops. For example if one fireball hits 4 targets then the spell will reflect back for 50% damage 4 times given that all creatures with magic mirror survived the initial strike.
If a AoE spell like Fireball hits multiple magic mirror(ed) targets, all targets will reflect half of the damage they took back to the user OR the monster blocking the line of sight as the spell will consider a friendly troop unit a foe. If sanctuary is active, the reflected spell will not hit any targets currently under its effect.
Magic Mirror will not affect a chain lightning target  (spread effect). However, if the Chain Lightning is cast on the first target and it has magic mirror, then the spell will reflect – starting to hit the user and then transfer to nearby friends and foes. Also if 2 magic mirror targets are struck, once again, only the first will reflect. Chain Lightning got no limit to its reach battle map wise . It will still be reflected even though all chained targets die (given the first stays alive).
If you cast a aoe spell like fireball on a enemy next to the faire dragon (as the faire dragon) then the fireball will hit the faire dragon and reflect back, dealing half the damage to both the enemy and the faire dragon again.
Magic Mirror does not work on Displacement. Both dispel and mass dispel can be reflected. Create illusion / PHI cannot be reflected. Magic mirror can reflect a friendly inferno or fireball spell if a magic mirror user gets hit by it. If the attacker has X ward on and uses X spell on a Magic mirror target, the 50% magical damage reduction from X ward will activate on a reflected spell. Same rule applies to Pain Mirror.
Magic mirror will reflect blind, but not from unicorns. It won’t reflect hypnotize. It will reflect berserk.  If you cast steal enchantment  on a faire dragon, then the spell will be reflected back again (the transfer had no result, but only if the spell transfer hits the caster, if not, the spell will not be reflected)."

Ima go and puke a bit, seeing all this stuff again makes my head spin.
Edit: Now I know where Ohforfsake's stinger went, I borrowed it and placed in the file to ensure I would never see this information again heh.

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BrennusWhiskey
BrennusWhiskey


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
The quickest H4 player
posted June 03, 2016 05:37 PM

Basically magic mirror is so weak spell that I never met it in online game.
Here are winning spells for every faction: steal all enchantments, mass cancellation, divine intervention, disintegration and summon mantis (phoenixes) {summon devils for demonologist but its very hard to get it}.

You should separate theory tested on AI from practice tested online
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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted June 03, 2016 06:07 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 18:08, 03 Jun 2016.


You're missing the point Brennus. What my spell example is meant to show you is not if the spell shall be used or how good it is, but a few of the rather unending scenarios and specifik rules each spell follows and how that opens up an absurd amount of stratagems.
So it does reflect both online and vs the AI (map wise).

You're also placing too much emphasis on the high end spells because, at least back in the days when I played H4 online, they were only some among the winning spells.
Ps: Ban Mire-kite.

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BrennusWhiskey
BrennusWhiskey


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
The quickest H4 player
posted June 04, 2016 08:52 AM

Ebonheart said:

You're also placing too much emphasis on the high end spells because, at least back in the days when I played H4 online, they were only some among the winning spells.



Sure, my point was only that 5th lvl spells are the most powerful and  that you can do good job with every faction. I disagree with you point that there are better factions on some maps. If map is well balanced I play random and I am ok.

So, if you want to go further with analysis, for me its like solving chess problems with three knights on board - I am not interested in that

I am going back to the online game then
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Karmakeld
Karmakeld


Known Hero
posted June 04, 2016 10:03 PM

Ebonheart, is it possible for you to share the spell rules? Some of it seems quite interesting.

Regarding the balance between factions and maps, I'm not sure the opposite is desired. I haven't played H7 myself, but from what I've read, all factions are so much alike (likely for the sake of balance), that they loose their uniqueness. Certainly some towns have faster progress than others, and would be more suited for small/medium maps, but I also recall this to be the case of H3, where e.g. Tower had some costly buildings. But doesn't that only help improve the diversity of the factions, and add a different playstyle (strategy) to each of them?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 04, 2016 10:35 PM

My dream for Heroes 4.5 (sorta wog for H4)


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All my Era II mods

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OldLich
OldLich


Hired Hero
posted June 05, 2016 07:08 AM

I don't know whether or not Heroes IV is the best or not I have forgotten what the game even look like. I remember the front menu, that yellowish title screen and the nice music and some of the adventure map, but not much. It's the only Heroes game I ever bought, I have the original box.
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If God interferred and secretly controlled the life of a person with the precision of a needle, that would be a total disaster to his name. How would he explain his lack of precision in controlling Ad

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Karmakeld
Karmakeld


Known Hero
posted June 05, 2016 07:29 AM

Salamandre, that looks awesome.
The Equilibris team did add some new objects, some +10 years ago, and alot more was made for the v3.6. If a new update to Equilibris were released, adding new objects like you show (is that from wog btw?) and more options, one could only hope it would revive the interest for H4. To me the H4 editor contains alot of options for interesting map making, but indeed there are still room for improvements here and there as well as a few bugs that still needs ironing.

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted June 05, 2016 07:38 AM
Edited by Ebonheart at 07:38, 05 Jun 2016.

Karmakeld said:
Ebonheart, is it possible for you to share the spell rules? Some of it seems quite interesting.

The spell rule document I made consists of more than 174 A4 pages and I stored it on my older PC at my grandparent's place, I only had a small portion of it here as the magic mirror test was so tricky. Since there was no internet up there, all I could do all day was to sit and test all spells, creature specials, potions, vials and artefacts...)

I shall take a look for you the next time I go there.

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