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| Thread: really sickenss.. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV |
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 17, 2014 09:13 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 21:14, 17 Jul 2014.
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Quote:
just because i can get the reasoning behind the manipulation(through promoting that all men are oppressors), does not mean that many others will, or won't rail against it.
I think there's a point there. A lot of the more hardcore radical feminists are snow at presenting their cause to a wider audience, which contributes to the typical feminist stereotyping and bashing seen here and elsewhere.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted July 17, 2014 09:22 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 21:42, 17 Jul 2014.
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@Fred: It's not a manipulation, they are stating what they genuinely believe based on how they perceive society. I believe the oppression of all women by men is a very genuine thing, structurally speaking.
This is not a new phenomena Fred, men (and women, mainly men) have been fighting against feminism from the start. Thousands of incredible women have fought and died for their rights and continue to this day. It has always turned people away, because it challenges their power, their identities, their perceived roles in society.
I'm gonna be a bit harsh but "roll along much faster"...? By just being a bit more polite or what? What women have won so far they have not won by being polite. In fact, it's a very patriarchal behaviour to -from our positions- ask them to calm down. We have the privilege to NOT CARE, we can just say **** off to feminism and go back to our lives... of course we can just calm down. Try and calm down when you live and see that oppression every day, in fact I'm amazed women are collected as they are. That's the patriarchy I guess, the greatest success of an oppression is to make the victims themselves feel their position is natural.
I agree with you and Xerox in that the "hardcore" feminism is probably alienating to many people who think it's uncomfortable, but I say **** 'em, they're not gonna help. I don't think it's the "hardcore" feminists' responsibility to care for their feelings. I'd rather place responsibility on the public to reflect a bit on their roles in society, then maybe they (read: white men like me, almost always.) won't be so damn butthurt about being questioned once in their lives.
But yeah... the slightly more mainstream feminism is probably more effective overall. Then again, a party like the Feminist Initiative in Sweden (I think this is probably the first time in history a strictly feminist party has such a shot at joining the parliament) are very well-informed, calm and objective imo in their feminism and they're still called extremists all over the place.
Both have their places I think. Higher level politics require more strategies, more games. Blergh 
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 17, 2014 10:26 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 22:38, 17 Jul 2014.
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Adrius said:
@Fred: It's not a manipulation, they are stating what they genuinely believe based on how they perceive society. I believe the oppression of all women by men is a very genuine thing, structurally speaking.
i see. i somehow missed the "imo", and got the impression that it was a deliberate, manipulative tactic when you said, "some generalizations and provocation is not uncalled for imo", in regards to ALL men being oppressors. then i would be inclined to fervently disagree. you can talk structure all you want, i am not part of that structure. i don't oppress my 2 sisters, my mom, or my aunt. they all have jobs. i take nothing from them, that i don't give back. if they are oppressed, it isn't by me.
Adrius said:
This is not a new phenomena Fred, men (and women, mainly men) have been fighting against feminism from the start. Thousands of incredible women have fought and died for their rights and continue to this day. It has always turned people away, because it challenges their power, their identities, their perceived roles in society.
what turns me away from feminism, is that they think i am somehow responsible for their plight, merely because i am man. that is sexist, and makes them, and indeed their entire movement, hypocritical. that also makes them stupid. a racist black who would hate me because whites used to own slaves, and the fact that i am white makes me a target for their accusations, is just as stupid. do i owe every black person a come-uppance merely because their ancestors were slaves, or that any of them might have experienced racism at the hands of a racist? **** no. the same goes with feminists. this isn't macho speak, because i "feel threatened by the fact that somebody is trying to take away any power i may have"; this is simple logic. the ideas of both feminists and racist blacks, of what i stated here, is preposterous. the ideas are one and the same, and they are both drastically flawed reasoning.
Adrius said:
I'm gonna be a bit harsh but "roll along much faster"...? By just being a bit more polite or what? What women have won so far they have not won by being polite. In fact, it's a very patriarchal behaviour to -from our positions- ask them to calm down. We have the privilege to NOT CARE, we can just say **** off to feminism and go back to our lives... of course we can just calm down. Try and calm down when you live and see that oppression every day, in fact I'm amazed women are collected as they are. That's the patriarchy I guess, the greatest success of an oppression is to make the victims themselves feel their position is natural.
you can be as harsh as you want, it won't change my mind. aggression is something that i understand completely. i also know that it is counterproductive when it comes to making a positive change, which is why the oppressed take things slow. the places where feminism is prevalent, are in places where they won't get killed merely by voicing their opinion. in more "civilized" countries, you have miles of red tape, and public opinion to sway. yes, it is an uphill battle to make a great change. yes, it will be slow going. but anything else is counterproductive to peace. human beings(male AND female) can only deal with so much change at a time.
Adrius said:
I'd rather place responsibility on the public to reflect a bit on their roles in society, then maybe they (read: white men like me, almost always.) won't be so damn butthurt about being questioned once in their lives.
are you implying that i am butthurt over this? lol, i sure hope not. i get pissed when somebody tries to shove something down my throat, though(especially when it is irrational). go fig.
Adrius said:
But yeah... the slightly more mainstream feminism is probably more effective overall.
yes, it will be, if feminists want positive change; instead of being fought tooth and nail over every little foothold. popular media is sure helping, though. just like it helped to integrate blacks with whites.
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@ antipaladin: i realize we have drifted somewhat off-topic here, and i apologize for that. if a mod would be so kind as to move all of this jibber-jabber over to the "feminism" thread, it would be much obliged.
also, anti: this is kind of on-topic, as you can see what different opinions are about your first post, and in regards to the mentalities behind the responses to it.
(damn typos)
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 17, 2014 10:29 PM |
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Ummm, that's a study about political parties, not companies. There's a key difference in them. The people working under you being competent will make you look good in a company and very rarely will they be a threat to your position. Unlike in politics where your competition comes from all those working under you.
Btw. women leaders are better than men on average. The problem is just in their numbers, just like in nurses. In time it will even out, it's equalizing pretty fast too in the western world. I'm saying give it time. We have more women in higher education than men, It is bound to even up in leadership eventually. Structural changes take time. Why risk the potential fallout damage for ideological reasons while a couple decades of natural evolution will do it for you?
I've got nothing against gender equal representation anywhere. I'm just strongly against forcing it with quotas.
And let's be fair, the quotas are not about forcing equality, they're about fattening the wallets of a very select group of women. Quite often the same women who are driving them. I still have not heard of any talk about quotas for men/women in low paying professions.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 17, 2014 10:46 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 23:15, 17 Jul 2014.
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Quotas are sort of like placing a sheet over a hole in the wall, caused by a vandal that ran away. It might look better on the outside, but both the hole and the vandal that caused it are still out there.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 17, 2014 11:11 PM |
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antipaladin said:
you guys walk in my thread, go completely off topic,discussing,and bashing each other,and im embarrassing myself?!
I figured a Corribus quote would be welcomed 
Corribus said:
Just to be clear, the opening poster of a thread does not get to dictate terms of the thread to other members. If you don't like the way someone is treating the topic of a thread, you may ask him or her politely to change their posting style, and a moderator will then determine whether to enforce the request if it is ignored. The host of a thread is the community at large, not an individual who happens to start the thread.
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