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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Do you like elves and dwarves having their own faction?
Thread: Do you like elves and dwarves having their own faction? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted August 19, 2014 05:33 PM
Edited by Avirosb at 17:37, 19 Aug 2014.

Quote:
The people who think H1-3 was original in any kind of way are hypocrites who only t know or want to talk about his game and not the fantasy culture of that era.
These old heroes games were based on fantasy stereotypes of that time.
Heroes 2, 3 and to a certain extent 4 took everyting - established tropes included(with the exception of Infernopolis)- and presented it fairly well IMO.

The graphics, the towns, the characters, the gameplay, music, you name it.

I just don't feel the same way about Ashan. It either feels like developers are either trying too hard or not hard enough.
HoMM 2, 3, and 4, I had no prior knowledge of those when I tried them. Most likely I would've been just as ungrateful during the development process had NWC still been in existence.

Quote:
Heroes 5+ makes factions have a sense of identification and organization
Most of the old factions are made up of beings that share a common interest.




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RMZ1989
RMZ1989


Supreme Hero
posted August 19, 2014 05:39 PM

Dave_Jame said:
Fal-Parsi said:
Nelgirith said:
And tbh, NWC's dwarves looked more like Snow White's dwarves than warmongers

It's true, and I like them that way. Most of the charm NWC games for me was that you could imagine your creatures and cities outside the war, it made the world feel alive (and granted more design freedom).
Now they are your usual tolkinian rip-off. Booooooring


What?
Part one if you would like to call Ashan dwarves a rip-off of something, it would have to be Warhammer, not Tolkien.
Part two, H2 was the most Tolkien inspired heroes ever.
Part three, if you cant imagine a world depicted with huge cities, mines and landscape without the conflict, the problem is not in the world but in you.


Part four. The people who think H1-3 was original in any kind of way are hypocrites who only t know or want to talk about his game and not the fantasy culture of that era. These old heroes games were based on fantasy stereotypes of that time. They shared this with the all the media fantasy projected itself into. Books (see any Gamebook by Jackson & Livingstone), RPG games (D&D), Board Games (Talisman 1st and 2nd edition, Old Magic cards). It was not original at all and people who say this are just blinded by nostalgia.
So right now a more Warhammer inspired style is popular (you can thank Warcraft for this), big deal. I wouldn't personal care if we would have 9 factions of re-colored beastmen models as long as the gameplay is OK.

So please stop complaining that Ubi tries to make their lore coherent. Most of you don't care for it anyway so just let it go.

Well said my friend, well said.

Most of the complaining about "originality" is just an excuse for not implementing something that they want anyway. I really like all those complains about how some unit is "boring", "overused" and "generic" while the fact is that in Heroes games(from 1-6) pretty much 90% of the stuff is generic and overused and is inspired by ton of other games and books.
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VOKIALBG
VOKIALBG


Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
posted August 19, 2014 05:48 PM
Edited by VOKIALBG at 17:49, 19 Aug 2014.

BUT put in different way that makes them unique. Dwarfs and elfs are older then Tolkien, much older then his work, but he "use" them in a way that makes them different and special, and unique for his literature. NWC did the same with many other creatures. Ubi just copied all.

Avirosb said it right.
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Fal-Parsi
Fal-Parsi


Hired Hero
posted August 19, 2014 05:54 PM
Edited by Fal-Parsi at 17:55, 19 Aug 2014.

I think I've not explained myself well. I don't mean NWC universe was full of original creatures and stories -most on the contrary, everything was generally easily recognisible and cliche (heck, there are even evil ninjas in Isles of Terra!). It'sthe whole of all that what I think is original, the ability to mix very different and somehow archetypal elements into a single, varied universe.
Laser shooting robots are not original nor exciting; fighting them with swords and magical staffs inside an alien pyramid after defeating hundreds of dragons and gargoyles in World of Xeen -that is refreshing for me.

H2 hadn't anything original in itself, on the contrary, every unit somehow recall shared childhood utopian fantasies, and that is precisely what make it stand for me.
H3 had a quite different vibe, much darker, but still, while having creatures borrowed from hundreds of different fantastic lores, it achvieved its own character -the whole is different from anything else.

EDIT, since I see recent posts already said what I tried to.


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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted August 19, 2014 06:01 PM
Edited by Dave_Jame at 18:07, 19 Aug 2014.

Ok lets, skip the elves and Dwarves. Why not try to come up with ideas and examples with which Ubi DID tried to make the game original and new, or at least tried to come up with an approach that is not overused.

I'll start:
1: Rakshasa. A mythical creature that is not overused. I think one of their best moves.

2: Orcs = Human mutants. Rather then Aliens from other world. More in the line of Tolkien's orcs who were of elven descent.

3: Asian based nagas: Original in the way "it was not used for a long time" Still hated for too much use of Female model, even if they were original asian myths.

4: Liches and Vampires: Ubi tried to make their vampires different. So instead of beastial nosferatu like creatures, they made them beeings that need blood to not get devoured by the venom in their body. But how did this inovation came out. Well most people here do wnat those aristocratic nobles or bestial stalkers.

So these are the more original ideas that Ubi tried to come up with. How many of these ideas were criticized by nostalgic fans? I'll let you answer for your self. I'm not saying all of these are pure gold. Just that you should think about them, and how unthankfull it is to come up with new ideas.
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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted August 19, 2014 06:15 PM

Liches and Vampires are stupid (as they are presented in H6) and that has nothing to do with nostalgia.
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Fal-Parsi
Fal-Parsi


Hired Hero
posted August 19, 2014 06:27 PM

Dave_Jame said:
1: Rakshasa. A mythical creature that is not overused. I think one of their best moves.

2: Orcs = Human mutants. Rather then Aliens from other world. More in the line of Tolkien's orcs who were of elven descent.

3: Asian based nagas: Original in the way "it was not used for a long time" Still hated for too much use of Female model, even if they were original asian myths.

4: Liches and Vampires: Ubi tried to make their vampires different. So instead of beastial nosferatu like creatures, they made them beeings that need blood to not get devoured by the venom in their body. But how did this inovation came out. Well most people here do wnat those aristocratic nobles or bestial stalkers.



1. I hated it for its excessive blue, but without doubt the Rakshasaa is a cool addition if it gets better coloured. A good substitution for the naga.

2. Their origin doesn't matter at all, I don't care about the new lore. What matters for me is what I see in the game, and those orcs look like any other orc, although I wouldn't complain too much about that (the american theme in H6 was cool). Now, look at Heroes II and IV; how many orcs have you seen with a pig face?
That really is something unique in videogames, don't you think?

3. I'm not very interested in asian themes, but I liked H6 nagas. I  prefer the swamps of H3, but still think nagas were a nice addition to Ashan. It's a shame they're not coming back and improved in H7. I also liked Irina, her heroine.
Problem is, visually they were way too uniform.

4. I think you're again speaking about lore, about what we do not see when exploring the adventure map or fighting a battle -and those are the things that matter.

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted August 19, 2014 06:36 PM

Fal-Parsi said:
Problem is, visually they were way too uniform.

Aren't all H6 factions too uniform, visually speaking?
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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted August 19, 2014 06:40 PM

Storm-Giant said:

Aren't all H6 factions too uniform, visually speaking?


h6 rapes your eyes with overused colors

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Miru
Miru


Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
posted August 19, 2014 08:13 PM

I just don't like the dwarves in Heroes 5-7 at all. A defensive faction that isn't heavy on shooters? Why? I never found their characters, lore, morals, or anything about them the slightest bit interesting. They somehow managed to be even more boring than the human faction IMO.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 19, 2014 10:33 PM

Voted 'Yes, but done differently'.

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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 19, 2014 11:05 PM
Edited by mvassilev at 02:16, 20 Aug 2014.

This reminds me of the old races vs themes discussion.

I'd like to see dwarves and elves continue to be separate, and be the central element of their respective towns, e.g. the dwarf town's heroes should mostly be dwarves and the elf town's heroes should mostly be elves. But I think H5 went too far in making all of the towns' creatures of the town's race - Fortress is an especially egregious offender, there's no need for so many dwarves. The elf town would ideally replace Blade Dancers with something like wolves or white tigers, and the dwarf town could have mechanical units (Fortress + Forge!) or the kinds of beasts one would find on cold mountains - mountain goats, yetis, etc.
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 19, 2014 11:11 PM
Edited by xerox at 23:14, 19 Aug 2014.

The obsession with race is a social construct that we're applying to a fantasy world. Themes are way more interesting.

edit: lol @ at the posts of 13 year old xerox in that thread
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 19, 2014 11:25 PM
Edited by Galaad at 23:27, 19 Aug 2014.

Avirosb said:
Heroes 2, 3 and to a certain extent 4 took everyting - established tropes included(with the exception of Infernopolis)- and presented it fairly well IMO.
The graphics, the towns, the characters, the gameplay, music, you name it.
I just don't feel the same way about Ashan. It either feels like developers are either trying too hard or not hard enough.

I share this.
mvassilev said:
This me of the old races vs themes discussion.
The elf town would ideally replace Blade Dancers with something like wolves or white tigers, and the dwarf town could have mechanical units (Fortress + Forge!) or the kinds of beasts one would find on cold mountains - mountain goats, yetis, etc.

I actually like this idea, espectially the Fortress + Forge part !

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Kivo
Kivo


Famous Hero
posted August 19, 2014 11:35 PM
Edited by Kivo at 23:36, 19 Aug 2014.

No...

If you think about it, Ashan basically stole the originality from the HoMM series. Its like in any other game where Elves and Dwarves are seperate factions/races. Boring!

At least the old system made HoMM stand out.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 20, 2014 12:04 AM

Kivo said:
If you think about it, Ashan basically stole the originality from the HoMM series. Its like in any other game where Elves and Dwarves are seperate factions/races. Boring!
Not really, having them as separate faction is no different from having humans and elves as separate factions. Everything else they did with them is what made them boring.

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 20, 2014 12:05 AM

I've really grown to respect the old universes. Ashan really is the most generic thing.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
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sovereign.
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Kivo
Kivo


Famous Hero
posted August 20, 2014 12:10 AM

xerox said:
I've really grown to respect the old universes. Ashan really is the most generic thing.


Exactly.

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JeremiahEmo
JeremiahEmo


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
posted August 20, 2014 02:48 AM
Edited by JeremiahEmo at 02:49, 20 Aug 2014.

mvassilev said:
The elf town would ideally replace Blade Dancers with something like wolves or white tigers, and the dwarf town could have mechanical units (Fortress + Forge!) or the kinds of beasts one would find on cold mountains - mountain goats, yetis, etc.


yes, I would rather mix the Dwarves with fire and ice, you know what I mean? Not just fire.
I'd love to see them return for H7, specifically in the base game (but not over the Elves).
A Fortress faction that is composed of mountain (or ice) units, fire, mechanical and ofcourse Dwarf units would make the faction amazing.

I disagree with the Blade Dancers though. I want Blade Dancers to be there to basically tell people that Elves are all about agility, to a point of sacrificing their sturdiness.


Anyway, a good lineup for Dwarves would be:

Core:
1. Defender -> Shieldguard
2. Helipad -> Battlecopter
3. Blacksmith -> Mastersmith

Elite:
4. Ice Troll -> Mountain Troll
5. Steam Tank -> Heavy Tank
6. Jotunn -> Fire Giant

Champion
7. Yeti -> Bigfoot
8. Lava Lizard -> Magma Lizard

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 20, 2014 04:19 AM

I'd say swap the Jotunn and Yeti, a mere beast shouldn't rank more powerful than a being that can do battle with gods (at least in mythology).

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