Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: What is the optimal battlefield size?
Thread: What is the optimal battlefield size? This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 20, 2014 07:43 AM

JollyJoker said:
And think of immediate AoE spells, if you are forced to a cramped deployment, just because you field a full army.

Well I think I agree with the general point you are making but just want to say that you could turn this around and say: If you fill your army with large units and this in turns leads you to being vulnerable to AOE spells, then maybe you made the wrong strategic choice by bringing all those large creatures? You could think of this as another strategic parameter you had to take into consideration apart from just amassing all the most powerful units into one army.
____________
What will happen now?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 20, 2014 08:17 AM

That's true - but shouldn't you have an opportunity to turn that round?
What I want to say is, it's a game, and that game should allow you to "coordinate your actions and decisions in order to present opponent problems they cannot solve".
Which means the following:
2x2 units SHOULD most of the time be good and strong units, that's why they are big. So having big units in your army seems like a good idea as well.
If that means, your deployment becomes cramped (you CAN do it, but for a price), there may also be an option to learn or get something guarding against too massive AoE attacks.

Which means, the BF should allow to place 7 big units - albeit cramped -, but allow smaller units to disperse.

Incidentally, with a fireball you cannot hit more than two biggies which are placed in one row, but in a cramped deployment zone like 2 rows in 12x10, if you add small units, a Fireball will hit more.

That's why I would like a 14 square wide BF with 3 deployment rows, since that would allow an army of mostly small creatures to disperse, it would allow to filed 7 biggie stacks as well - but they would be quite cramped.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
VOKIALBG
VOKIALBG


Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
posted August 20, 2014 10:22 AM
Edited by VOKIALBG at 10:47, 20 Aug 2014.

There must be NO optimal size. I like a lot the idea of different battlefields. It's not natural to have only alike battlefields.

I'll like to see something like different "levels" on the battlefield, to make them a relief as ground. And this may have something to do with gameplay... like speed reduction when the ground is rising and etc.

Weather changes will also be nice to see. Lets say that fog will reduce the ranged dmg and etc...
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted August 20, 2014 10:35 AM

VOKIALBG said:

I'll like to see something like different "levels" on the battlefield, to make them a relief as ground. And this may have something to do with gameplay... like speed reduction when the ground is rising and etc.

This is a good idea, but it should be very clear on the adventure map where you'll get such a battlefield and who will be on the high ground. Those stairs from heroes 6 would do the trick, and other, similar, slopes might also work. As long as it is clear the army is standing on a slope. Smaller elevations could maybe result in small hills on the battlefield...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 20, 2014 10:52 AM

VOKIALBG said:
There must be NO optimal size. I like a lot the idea of different battlefields. It's not natural to have only alike battlefields.

I'll like to see something like different "levels" on the battlefield, to make them a relief as ground. And this may have something to do with gameplay... like speed reduction when the ground is rising and etc.

Weather changes will also be nice to see. Lets say that for will reduce the ranged dmg and etc...

On the contrary - there MUST be one, because without an optimal BF size, any variation may tilt things too far in one direction.

Once you have established a COMFORTABLE size - that will be fair for every creature size, allows kind of neutral deployment and also unit speeds that are increased or decreased in the right way via abilities and so on - you can then have alterations in order to make it easier or more difficult for certain kinds of army constellations or abilities.

I mean, if a BF is cramped, making it more cramped makes no sense. If it's NOT cramped, though, you can have it smaller in certain instances. Likewise, if you can easily disperse and run in circles on the regular map, it makes no sense to make it even bigger.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted August 20, 2014 02:23 PM

JollyJoker said:
Now consider what happens with 2x2 creatures: what if you want to build 7 stacks of them for your army? Not possible? Are you kidding?


This is not a huge issue for me but I agree with you JJ. In H5 7 slots would not allow 7 large creatures. For me I'd rather be able to use 7 biggies and not have to set two aside every battle. Not so much for the game in the beginning but on later custom maps once the game has been out for a bit.

Funny, I remember thinking when I put 7 level seven stacks (I didn't want 1000 of one thing) in a neutral "Outpost" on a custom map that this will be tougher and then came the battle field limit. <imo> 7 slots should mean seven anything.

Hmm, and there's going to be 9 available creatures now? I might be asking too much...don't know for sure but I doubt it.


____________
"Do your own research"

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted August 20, 2014 02:28 PM

markkur said:
JollyJoker said:
Now consider what happens with 2x2 creatures: what if you want to build 7 stacks of them for your army? Not possible? Are you kidding?


This is not a huge issue for me but I agree with you JJ. In H5 7 slots would not allow 7 large creatures. For me I'd rather be able to use 7 biggies and not have to set two aside every battle. Not so much for the game in the beginning but on later custom maps once the game has been out for a bit.

Funny, I remember thinking when I put 7 level seven stacks (I didn't want 1000 of one thing) in a neutral "Outpost" on a custom map that this will be tougher and then came the battle field limit. <imo> 7 slots should mean seven anything.

Yeah, that was annoying.

markkur said:
Hmm, and there's going to be 9 available creatures now? I might be asking too much...don't know for sure but I doubt it.

8 Creatures per faction, although your hero can only carry 7 stacks.

____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted August 20, 2014 02:38 PM

Thanks. Then I hope 8 slots means 8 anything. Like I said, I may want too much...don't know till we can take it for a spin.
____________
"Do your own research"

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted August 20, 2014 03:17 PM

My idel size would be 14 Wight (7x2 to have the option of all 7 creatures beeing large) and 16 lenght
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.

We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 20, 2014 04:15 PM

JollyJoker said:
That's why I would like a 14 square wide BF with 3 deployment rows, since that would allow an army of mostly small creatures to disperse, it would allow to filed 7 biggie stacks as well - but they would be quite cramped.

Yeah, I do agree that 14 squares wide makes sense with a 7-unit army. I just hope they can make units show up a little better than what we see in the video so that they don't all come across as coloured blops.
____________
What will happen now?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Miru
Miru


Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
posted August 20, 2014 10:09 PM

I think there is another underlying issue behind the whole what if I want 7 large creatures thing -- racial mixing. Allow me a tangent for a moment.

One thing I never liked about the Heroes series is the incentive to split your main army, or rather lack thereof. I started playing when I was like 6 and I always kept my entire army on my one hero. I only won a single game of H1 ever, and probably single digits H2 games. Around Heroes 3 I recognized that it would be better to hire more heroes to use as scouts and to split your army up to accomplish multiple things at once, but I didn't start really doing that until the fourth game. I quickly figured out, much to my dismay, that what I thought would be a hard balance -- choosing how many troops to take, how many to leave in defense, and how many to put on secondaries --, was in fact total snow. The best thing to do in almost all situations is put your whole army in one stack. What this means is that when you capture a second town rather than have one army for each race, you put the best troops of both into one army, assuming morale compatibility. I think the game would be a lot more interesting if your castle was periodically besieged and needed a standing defense, and if the were more easy neutrals far apart, to force you to divide your troops intelligently to cover ground. As is, you can often walk from one edge of your domain to another in 3 or 4 days and clear the stacks from easiest to hardest, leaving little reason not to put your whole army in one stack.

I other words the real problem here is you shouldn't want to put 7 large creatures in one army, not that you cant'.
____________
I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
arain21
arain21

Tavern Dweller
posted August 20, 2014 10:44 PM

About combat size the playeres who play MMHO know which will be the result because MMH7 is a copy from it but tweaked a bit.

If you create a large combat map with slow speed of creatures only occur the combat will be tedious, in order words, more than 15 min per battle and it is a problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVeJaqY1y48

In my opinion the correct combat map size and speed is HOMM3/5.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 20, 2014 11:01 PM

Except that HoMM 3 is way bigger than HoMM 5.
Unit speed is a factor here as well.

I also diasagree with Miru. I'm a player who doesn't like to mix. HoMM 1 and 2 were different from the rest for a reason.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 20, 2014 11:26 PM

I think one crucial detail that H3 had correct was that some, but only a few, creatures could cross in first turn. That gave these creatures a very special and powerful role in the combat. In H5 as others have said, far too many creatures could cross in first turn, which gave some lame situations. I think on the other hand if battlefield is much larger than what the fastest creatures can move, battles will just become tedious.
____________
What will happen now?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Nocturnal
Nocturnal


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted August 21, 2014 12:42 AM
Edited by Nocturnal at 00:47, 21 Aug 2014.

The first problem is not the size of the battlefield but the things around the battlefield.

If you look at the catapult battle screenshot, you can see that nearly 1/3 of the screen shows the surroundings of the battlefield. A houes, a wagon, huge rocks, the road nearby, fences, etc. This makes the battlefield itself small in the screen let alone the creatures in the field. The standart zoom must be closer. Cause zooming in at the start of every battle is not the same.

About the battlefield, if a creatures max standart speed is 8, there must be at least 9 squires between two lines of armies. Meaning add one more horizontal line to H5 field. Because then the importance of initiative and speed becomes very huge. Remember the Heaven army in H5. Battle starts, the Cavalier charges and destroys two whole stacks of units or the Emeral Dragon of Sylvan. That shouldn't happen. Only a few units should have that and ideally those units shouldnt have other very big skils.

Also add two more vertical lines to H5 field to place an all-large army
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Atronach
Atronach


Hired Hero
Fired Hero
posted August 21, 2014 01:57 AM

I think the problem of not being able to fit 7 2x2 stacks would be ameliorated if there were more creatures that had sizes like 1x2 and 2x1 instead of taking up four tiles. It may also help if battlefields were slightly longer (more space between players' armies), and you could have a greater tactical area in which to arrange your units. For example, you could have something like a 12x4 area for tactics at the beginning of battle, while still leaving plenty of space between you and your opponent.
____________
To the victor go the spoils.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
arain21
arain21

Tavern Dweller
posted August 21, 2014 02:18 AM

I play a lot this system (dynamic size of battlemap) at MMHO and I can say only works standard size. Larger battlemap = tedious combat with a duration >15 min each battle.

Yes, with a larger battlemap you obtain more obstacles but is only this. Ubi argue this decision because there are more strategic depth but I see even more strategy at previous Heroes. Also there are the factor of flanking and backstab, other element I can't see clear.

Nival tested this system in his Heroes V beta and they removed this feature (larger battlemap).

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Avonu
Avonu


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
posted August 21, 2014 06:56 AM

IIRC the problem with larger battlefield in H5 beta was something else.
In Heroes Online each shooter has maximum shot range and can move AND shoot.
In H5 all shooters can shot from one corner of battlefield to another and with larger battlefield it would mean, that you can easly shot down any unit before they reach your lines.
With max shot range this problem however is fixed (more or less).
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 21, 2014 07:03 AM

In H3 ranged units have a limited 'maximum damage' range, beyond which their effective drops off dramatically. I assume the same could be done here.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Avonu
Avonu


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
posted August 21, 2014 07:23 AM

In Heroes Online maximum range is range beyond which you cannot shoot. You must move your shooters closer to enemy.
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0379 seconds