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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Mythological Creatures.. Heroes7
Thread: Mythological Creatures.. Heroes7 This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
DarkLord
DarkLord


Supreme Hero
Fear me..
posted September 14, 2014 05:49 PM

Poll Question:
Mythological Creatures.. Heroes7

With the development of recent Heroes games
more and more creatures from mythologies
are replaced with different creatures

I personally dont like this tendency and prefer to have more creatures
from mythology rather then newly created from nowhere

what you guys think
which type of creatures must be more in Heroes7  

Responses:
Mythological Creatures
New Creatures by Ubisoft
 View Results!

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alex_yakub
alex_yakub


Famous Hero
posted September 14, 2014 05:50 PM

Why is there no option for people who like both of them? I'd vote for that

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DarkLord
DarkLord


Supreme Hero
Fear me..
posted September 14, 2014 05:53 PM

alex_yakub said:
Why is there no option for people who like both of them? I'd vote for that


one doesnt exclude the other

the question is which option must be more
ideal 50%-50% will never happen anyways

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alex_yakub
alex_yakub


Famous Hero
posted September 14, 2014 05:56 PM

DarkLord said:
alex_yakub said:
Why is there no option for people who like both of them? I'd vote for that


one doesnt exclude the other

the question is which option must be more
ideal 50%-50% will never happen anyways

Amen to that

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Nitramar
Nitramar


Adventuring Hero
posted September 14, 2014 07:06 PM

Voted mythological. Because creatures by ubisoft usually just means humanoids with oversized fancy weapons and overly detailed shiny armor/clothing.

I also appreciate mythological creatures more because I don't care about lore. With a mythological creature I can just go "oh, ok it's a griffin, cool, carry on" without needing any additional explanation. What I especially dislike is when they take the name of a mythological creature and make it unrecognizable (like cyclops in H6).


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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
posted September 14, 2014 07:12 PM

I voted mythological. But when I remember two headed cerberus (that still haunts me) it becomes clear that Ubi can ruin evven those creatures.

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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 14, 2014 07:21 PM bonus applied by Elvin on 05 Oct 2014.



People tend to get mad at Ubisoft using new creatures. They want more mythology. But people also want original and inspired creatures and not cliches.

If you want more inspired mythology creatures, you are going to dig deep, and if you dig too deep you wake the nameless fear get people not knowing what the creature is. And if they can't tell the roots of a creature, it's not much different from them making up one (after all, it seems that Ubi has made it up, as they have never seen it before). Lamasu, for instance. They aren't as known as say, the Egyptian Sphinx, but they are from Sumerian mythology. People didn't like that they were included and not the "more appropriate" Death Knights or Wraiths.

If they use too many "classic" myth creatures, then they tend to be the overused ones. By now people can't see Sylvan without Phoenixes, or Unicorns. Or Haven without Griffins. Or Dungeon without Minotaur or Dragons. Or wizards without Titans. or Stronghold without Cyclops. or Necropolis without vampires. But many of these are classical mythology or folk tale beasts. And by this point, they have been in nearly every game for Heroes since their debut (except H6, where Unicorns and Titans were nowhere to be found. However, they have always been in a forest faction if they did exist, and a wizard faction if that existed, respectively). But I have seen many forms of fiction use Phoenixes, if not a outright creature, then as a clear reference. Unicorns tend to be the same way. The rest are used similarly. (Especially Vampires, sadly.)

But may the heavens forbid Ubisoft changing the myth units in any way to make them more original and unique to Ashan/Heroes. "Cerberus has 2 heads? Egad, the madmen! We can't let them change this!" is a paraphrase of a common quote I have heard. So they want units to be exactly like the myths, but also original? Never mind the fact that "our" Cerberus is from a Greek mythology tied to Earth and classical Greek culture, but this Cerberus in Ashan is not a single dog that guards the underworld and doesn't let souls out, but instead is a murder-beast numbered in the thousands for an army of demonic invaders that are in no way actually related to a god named Hades or from a cold underworld filled with all the souls of the dead or has been taken by a man named Heracles/Hercules during his twelve labors et cetera et cetera. The number of heads is the problem here?

"Vampires are a different form of Lich? Spider venom blood? Heresy!" Not to mention that vampires have many, many different forms throughout works of fiction and various cultures. Go take a gander at the Vampire Wikipedia page. Vampires can be very different.

Have Titans been proto-godly beings that were the progenitors of current gods of the world in question?

Are golems beings of clay brought to life with paper in its mouth?

And if a new unit is created? "Mother of god! A Maniac! A Juggernaut! A Tormentor! A Breeder! A Blazing Glory! A Fate Weaver! None of these belong in a true Heroes game!" One could say they aren't super original, which is true for some. But a few of the alternatives so far have been underwhelming. Yet another human for the Glory? Bone Dragons instead of Weavers? I personally think the Fate Weavers are pretty original, and even though there are spider ladies in other forms of media (Driders are the primary example) they aren't as overused as the idea of a dead dragon come back to "life". And I feel that Haven shouldn't get a pass at whether it has "too many humans" but another race is suddenly under attack if they have more than 2.

It's not that there weren't completely new units in past Heroes games either. We have a beast that is made of living ooze and throws poison at long range covered in spikes and tentacles that sides with Death (Venom Spawn)? Fantastic. We have a beast that is made of enormous amounts of flesh and throws flaming tentacled imps at long range covered in gaping maws and tentacles that sides with Chaos (Breeder)? Suddenly a problem? We have a eyeless humanoid beast with a stick (Troglodyte)? Perfect. We have an eyeless, skinless beast made of muscles with bones protruding from it (Tormentor)? Is this not okay?

It's not a matter of "classic" or "new". They are both fictional, it really shouldn't matter. Quality of the creature within its new world is what's important. Besides, NWC's Axeoth and Antagarich still weren't Earth, and neither is Ubi's Ashan. Inspirational origin of the creature should mean little once the creature has entered that world's "reality".

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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
posted September 14, 2014 07:34 PM

Well, I understood that the poll was about what we want and what we think. So, if Ubi decides to create two headed cerberus, fine, but I do not need to like that

I think that they should avoid using names of well known mythological creatures because of the possible confusion. But that is only what I think I am not mad at Ubi because of creatures, I am mad because they ruined gameplay and turned HoMM into below average turn based game (again this is my oppinion).

I admit that there were some good creatures introduced in HoMM6 (Fate Weaver being one of them), but some of their choices I don't like: Sun Rider (or whatever it was it's name), all of the inferno creatures (except Succubi and Pit Fiends/Lords), look of the vampires (H5 looked much better IMO) etc. The other thing I dislike about Ubi creatures (whether they are original or not) is dominant colour: green undeads, purple dungeon units, gold haven, etc.

So, again, this is what I think and like

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Raelag84
Raelag84


Famous Hero
posted September 14, 2014 07:38 PM

Wow Protolisk. You've perfectly summed up all the contradictions involved with this whole process. We want something entirely new, and yet want everything to be the same, in the same breath, without irony.

Ubisoft steals so many ideas from myths and folk lore just to make them into something else entirely.

I voted mythological creatures. I was first attracted to Heroes of might and magic, because, it is a vast, interactive encyclopedia of of myths all perfectly organized into a narrative. My only recommendation is that Ubi begin looking more at myths outside of Europe. They have started the process, but they need to build on it.

Nothing against Europe by the way, but other peoples can have good myths too.

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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 14, 2014 07:54 PM

frostymuaddib said:
Well, I understood that the poll was about what we want and what we think. So, if Ubi decides to create two headed cerberus, fine, but I do not need to like that

I think that they should avoid using names of well known mythological creatures because of the possible confusion. But that is only what I think I am not mad at Ubi because of creatures, I am mad because they ruined gameplay and turned HoMM into below average turn based game (again this is my oppinion).

I admit that there were some good creatures introduced in HoMM6 (Fate Weaver being one of them), but some of their choices I don't like: Sun Rider (or whatever it was it's name), all of the inferno creatures (except Succubi and Pit Fiends/Lords), look of the vampires (H5 looked much better IMO) etc. The other thing I dislike about Ubi creatures (whether they are original or not) is dominant colour: green undeads, purple dungeon units, gold haven, etc.

So, again, this is what I think and like


Most of what you say is true, but I sort of got mad that this kind of question exists. I can't properly answer in such a poll because neither of the options I would choose, and I am tired of the subject being brought up as it tends to bring up tons of cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy.

I agree that the names should resemble the beast that bears it. Pardon my use of the dread website, but the TVTropes "Call a Rabbit a Smeerp" and "Call a Smeerp a Rabbit" annoy me to no end. However, things like the Sun Rider is just a more fantastical form of the, to me at least, rather boring "guy on a horse." Now he's a guy on a horse of light, and has an ability to match.  Furthermore, are the Cerberus multi-headed dogs? Yes. Are they, however, "a multi-headed (usually three-headed) dog, with a serpent's tail, a mane of snakes, and a lion's claws." From any and all versions of Heroes, no. If they can change one thing, it should stand to reason they can change another. Got that quote from Wikipedia, and from my readings of classical myth, it is consistent.

And while I didn't like the line up of H6 Inferno fully, it was mostly because three units all had the same role, as walkers that hit stuff, and got things to hit them. If, say only the Juggernaut stayed and the others were replaced by Nightmares and Efreet, i wouldn't mind. Or if they were replaced by cool, interesting demons, I wouldn't mind. Breeders were a good concept, and Cerberi (to me) had no problem.

Yes, my personal tastes are opinions, as are yours, and they are not to be reduced and ridiculed from either side. However, if people harbor differing opinions about different, but similar, topics, I get mad at the double standard, and I would like to call them out.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 14, 2014 10:57 PM
Edited by MattII at 23:00, 14 Sep 2014.

Voted mythology, because Ubisoft is crap at making their own units.

Protolisk said:
"Cerberus has 2 heads? Egad, the madmen! We can't let them change this!" is a paraphrase of a common quote I have heard.
And rightly so. Having three heads is basically what a cerberus is about, and if you want two heads, go the Orthrus, brother two the cerberus but with one less head.

Quote:
"Vampires are a different form of Lich? Spider venom blood? Heresy!" Not to mention that vampires have many, many different forms throughout works of fiction and various cultures. Go take a gander at the Vampire Wikipedia page. Vampires can be very different.
Yes, and none of them have ever been like this before. Not that I'm complaining mind you, it's a viable attempt to integrate vampires with the rest of the undead, an attempt which has never been made previously.= AFAIK.

Quote:
Yet another human for the Glory?
I suspect this had more to do with people feeling flying nude women inappropriate for Haven

Quote:
Bone Dragons instead of Weavers? I personally think the Fate Weavers are pretty original, and even though there are spider ladies in other forms of media (Driders are the primary example) they aren't as overused as the idea of a dead dragon come back to "life".
Yes, but it links back to the poor world-building used to create Ashan, plus there's the question over whether or not it's actually undead.

Quote:
And I feel that Haven shouldn't get a pass at whether it has "too many humans" but another race is suddenly under attack if they have more than 2.
Agreed wholeheartedly

Quote:
It's not that there weren't completely new units in past Heroes games either. We have a beast that is made of living ooze and throws poison at long range covered in spikes and tentacles that sides with Death (Venom Spawn)?
Anything to do with the H4 Death faction is carefully ignored for the most part, especially the ooze creature.

Quote:
We have a beast that is made of enormous amounts of flesh and throws flaming tentacled imps at long range covered in gaping maws and tentacles that sides with Chaos (Breeder)?
I thought it was one of the most imaginative units in the faction.

Quote:
We have a eyeless humanoid beast with a stick (Troglodyte)?
Another unit more-or-less unique to the series.

Quote:
We have an eyeless, skinless beast made of muscles with bones protruding from it (Tormentor)?
Looking very like the Kreegans from Might and Magic VI.

Quote:
Inspirational origin of the creature should mean little once the creature has entered that world's "reality".
Agreed, but many people (rightly in some cases) tie Ashan's creatures with Ubisoft's miss-more-often-than-hit attempts at story-writing.

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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 14, 2014 11:15 PM

MattII said:
Voted mythology, because Ubisoft is crap at making their own units.

And rightly so. Having three heads is basically what a cerberus is about, and if you want two heads, go the Orthrus, brother two the cerberus but with one less head.

Yes, and none of them have ever been like this before. Not that I'm complaining mind you, it's a viable attempt to integrate vampires with the rest of the undead, an attempt which has never been made previously.= AFAIK.

I suspect this had more to do with people feeling flying nude women inappropriate for Haven

Yes, but it links back to the poor world-building used to create Ashan, plus there's the question over whether or not it's actually undead.

Anything to do with the H4 Death faction is carefully ignored for the most part, especially the ooze creature.

Quote:
We have an eyeless, skinless beast made of muscles with bones protruding from it (Tormentor)?
Looking very like the Kreegans from Might and Magic VI.

Agreed, but many people (rightly in some cases) tie Ashan's creatures with Ubisoft's miss-more-often-than-hit attempts at story-writing.


Eh, again, Cerberus doesn't need 3 heads, although it is the most popular version of them. I agree that I would rather a 3 headed over a two headed, but I think we still get the gist that it is the multi-headed hound.

And didn't they say that the fate Weaver is a literal aspects and avatar of death? If it isn't "undead", are Wraiths from H5?

I can agree with you on the Glory, but, still, what would have been the replacement? Cause beyond extra humans, I never saw any better idea. Better to have 4 humans and a lady of light than 5 humans in my eyes.

And I always thought the Kreegans just looked like the Devils from H3. If this isn't the case, wow, that's awesome!

H4 should be ignored. I do it all the time.

But I cannot stress enough how much I agree with you with the story writing. Ashan has some promise, but they need to write it a bit better. With that, more new creatures could rise from it.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 15, 2014 10:38 AM

Protolisk said:
Eh, again, Cerberus doesn't need 3 heads, although it is the most popular version of them. I agree that I would rather a 3 headed over a two headed, but I think we still get the gist that it is the multi-headed hound.
Except that having three heads is basically what a cerberus is about, if you change that, you might as well take away the angels wings, or the unicorn's horn.

Quote:
And didn't they say that the fate Weaver is a literal aspects and avatar of death?
Yes, which I suspect most people disliked, since it does kind of change the whole feel of the faction from just a bunch of rogue wizards dabbling forbidden arts, to a bunch of wizards led by a rogue demi-god. I suspect the shape-changing aspect soured a few opinions too.

Quote:
If it isn't "undead", are Wraiths from H5?
H5 Wraiths are H3 Wraiths with a power boost and scythes, so yes, definitely undead.

Quote:
I can agree with you on the Glory, but, still, what would have been the replacement? Cause beyond extra humans, I never saw any better idea. Better to have 4 humans and a lady of light than 5 humans in my eyes.
Move the Sisters up, and stick in a war-dog in their place. Now yes, some will complain that this doesn't fit with Haven, but that just shows that they haven't studied history, because war dogs were used extensively in some quarters, especially by the conquistadors in their conquest of America. In addition, the usual bloodstock of those dogs was mastiffs or molossers, not wolves.

Quote:
And I always thought the Kreegans just looked like the Devils from H3. If this isn't the case, wow, that's awesome!
Okay, not a great picture, but here's one from the actual game.


Quote:
H4 should be ignored. I do it all the time.
[Which is a pity, because many consider the game, for all its faults, the best of the series in terms of actual story-writing.

Quote:
But I cannot stress enough how much I agree with you with the story writing. Ashan has some promise, but they need to write it a bit better. With that, more new creatures could rise from it.
Yes they should, but I'm not holding my breath, the game is no longer in the hands of people who see it as a legacy, merely as a source of income.

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VOKIALBG
VOKIALBG


Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
posted September 15, 2014 08:13 PM

Mythological.

Ubi created only few fails and copied few from other games.
____________

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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 15, 2014 08:41 PM

MattII said:
Except that having three heads is basically what a cerberus is about, if you change that, you might as well take away the angels wings, or the unicorn's horn.

Like I said, the "actual" Cerberus also had a serpent's tail and a mane of snakes, but you never see that interpreted correctly. Heck, one could say that would make them even more demonic, but, what ever. I do think they should have three heads, but I am fine with two. Agree to disagree?

Quote:
Yes, which I suspect most people disliked, since it does kind of change the whole feel of the faction from just a bunch of rogue wizards dabbling forbidden arts, to a bunch of wizards led by a rogue demi-god. I suspect the shape-changing aspect soured a few opinions too.

Okay, I can see the "god" problem being, well, a problem. Even in H5, Markal was pretty much doing his own stuff like a Necromancer should, while Arantir was more of a "Spider" guy. And although I particularly disliked the way the six armed form was handled, I think a shape-shifter (where both shapes are useful) is an excellent idea.

Quote:
H5 Wraiths are H3 Wraiths with a power boost and scythes, so yes, definitely undead.

Taking from the description of Wraiths in H5 (taking it from the "heroesofmightandmagic.com" site, which i believe to be consistent with the actual description in game, but I may be wrong) it says: "Wraiths are Death itself, nothing can endure their chilling touch and survive. Any enemy creature that fights them is drained of its soul-substance." I guess that could be a metaphor, but I always read it literally. In addition, I think that the H3!Wraiths are more like the H5!Ghosts/Spectres. They both can fly, have some ability to stay alive longer, and the upgrade can drain mana, and are in tier 3. The H5!Wraiths only share the name and a hood.

Quote:
Move the Sisters up, and stick in a war-dog in their place. Now yes, some will complain that this doesn't fit with Haven, but that just shows that they haven't studied history, because war dogs were used extensively in some quarters, especially by the conquistadors in their conquest of America. In addition, the usual bloodstock of those dogs was mastiffs or molossers, not wolves.

I can accept a war-dog/hound/wolf, but, as an elite? That seems a bit too powerful...

Quote:
Okay, not a great picture, but here's one from the actual game.



Oh yeah, I remember seeing the intro to that game. I think due to Heroes 3, they kept saying "Kreegans of Eofol" and "Devils" as if they were synonymous (but not exactly demons), so I thought "H3 Devils/Arch Devils = Kreegans." They do indeed look cool.

Quote:
Which is a pity, because many consider the game, for all its faults, the best of the series in terms of actual story-writing.

Perhaps. The only story I really remember was Gouldoth Half-Dead, which was pretty interesting. I also remember the Nature one's beginning, but it seemed like a sappy love story so I got burnt out over it. i forgot the rest (not to say the others weren't good, I just need to jog my memory)

Quote:
Yes they should, but I'm not holding my breath, the game is no longer in the hands of people who see it as a legacy, merely as a source of income.


I dunno. I liked H5 and Clash of Heroes. I was thinking H6 might have been a rather painful hiccup. I reserve judgement until I see H7.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 15, 2014 09:03 PM
Edited by MattII at 21:04, 15 Sep 2014.

Protolisk said:
Like I said, the "actual" Cerberus also had a serpent's tail and a mane of snakes, but you never see that interpreted correctly. Heck, one could say that would make them even more demonic, but, what ever. I do think they should have three heads, but I am fine with two. Agree to disagree?
Disagree, Orthrus is a fine, if underused creature of exactly that description, oh and it's Cerberus' brother.

Quote:
In addition, I think that the H3!Wraiths are more like the H5!Ghosts/Spectres. They both can fly, have some ability to stay alive longer, and the upgrade can drain mana, and are in tier 3. The H5!Wraiths only share the name and a hood.
Agreed on this point, but the name and look are enough for most people.

Quote:
I can accept a war-dog/hound/wolf, but, as an elite? That seems a bit too powerful...
No, war-dog as core, Sister/Vestal as elite.

Quote:
I dunno. I liked H5 and Clash of Heroes. I was thinking H6 might have been a rather painful hiccup. I reserve judgement until I see H7.
Well CoH might be good, but H5 took forever to get right, even the basics like the thing not jamming up.

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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 15, 2014 09:28 PM

MattII said:
Disagree, Orthrus is a fine, if underused creature of exactly that description, oh and it's Cerberus' brother.

I know who Orthrus is. However, most people not super well versed in classical Greek mythology would see a two headed dog, see the name, and wonder why. Hopefully they will learn about mythology, but more often than not, when they expect one thing and get the other, they get angry (what do ya know, we are the same way!) I never said I was happy with two heads, just that it's okay. It's definitely not what I prefer.
Quote:
Agreed on this point, but the name and look are enough for most people.

Yay.
Quote:
No, war-dog as core, Sister/Vestal as elite.

*facepalm* Read your first post as "Move GLORIES up, and put..." Yeah, I think them being the equivalent of Monks from H3/5 would be a fine change. (In fact, in the HD form of Clash of Heroes, they ARE the Elites.)
Quote:
Well CoH might be good, but H5 took forever to get right, even the basics like the thing not jamming up.

Well, I didn't have a whole lot of time to play the early versions just as it came out, and really got into it when ToE came out, so I guess I passed over launch-bugs season? I've been the same way for H6, as I really got into it after Dungeon joined (I played the beginning campaigns just as that was coming out) so most of it was fixed. I d however remember back when Sisters/Coral Priestess/Ghosts healed and their upgrades had combat abilities, but I only played that original version for a short time (my computer was at fault here, not the game).

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Sandman
Sandman


Known Hero
Fearsome Warrior
posted September 15, 2014 09:42 PM

Mythological rules, its one of the great parts of a heroes game. If they were all made up creatures it would be just like any other game.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 15, 2014 10:56 PM

Protolisk said:
I know who Orthrus is. However, most people not super well versed in classical Greek mythology would see a two headed dog, see the name, and wonder why. Hopefully they will learn about mythology, but more often than not, when they expect one thing and get the other, they get angry (what do ya know, we are the same way!)
They will probably get less angry at Ubisoft for giving them an unknown mythical creature, than 'vandalising' a well-known one.

Quote:
Well, I didn't have a whole lot of time to play the early versions just as it came out, and really got into it when ToE came out, so I guess I passed over launch-bugs season?
Oh yes, these were major issues in the early days.

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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 15, 2014 11:48 PM

MattII said:
They will probably get less angry at Ubisoft for giving them an unknown mythical creature, than 'vandalising' a well-known one.

True, true...

Quote:
Oh yes, these were major issues in the early days.

Guess I lucked out then!




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