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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Phoenix
Thread: Phoenix This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted September 16, 2014 04:39 PM
Edited by Galaad at 02:29, 19 Sep 2014.

Phoenix

                                               

A first read :

New World Encyclopedia said:

The phoenix, or phœnix as it is sometimes spelled, has been an enduring mythological symbol for millennia and across vastly different cultures. Despite such varieties of societies and times, the phoenix is consistently characterized as a bird with brightly colored plumage, which, after a long life, dies in a fire of its own making only to rise again from the ashes. From religious and naturalistic symbolism in ancient Egypt, to a secular symbol for armies, communities, and even societies, as well as an often-used literary symbol, this mythical bird's representation of death and rebirth seems to resonate with humankind's aspirations.

Although many cultures have their own interpretation of the phoenix, the differences in nuance are overshadowed by the mythical creature's more homogeneous characteristics. The phoenix is always a bird, usually having plumage of colors corresponding to fire: yellow, orange, red, and gold. The most universal characteristic is the bird's ability to resurrect. Living a long life (the exact age can vary from five hundred to over a thousand years), the bird dies in a self-created fire, burning into a pile of ashes, from which a phoenix chick is born, representing a cyclical process of life from death. Because it is reborn from its own death, the phoenix also took on the characteristics of regeneration and immortality.

MYTHICAL ORIGINS

Egyptian

The earliest representation of the phoenix is found in the ancient Egyptian Bennu bird, the name relating to the verb “weben,” meaning “to rise brilliantly,” or “to shine.” Some researchers believe that a now extinct large heron was a possible real life inspiration for the Bennu. However, since the Bennu, like all the other versions of the phoenix, is primarily a symbolic icon, the many mythical sources of the Bennu in ancient Egyptian culture reveal more about the civilization than the existence of a real bird.

One version of the myth says that the Bennu bird burst forth from the heart of Osiris. In the more prevalent myths, the Bennu created itself from a fire that was burned on a holy tree in one of the sacred precincts of the temple of Ra. The Bennu was supposed to have rested on a sacred pillar that was known as the benben-stone. At the end of its life-cycle, the phoenix would build itself a nest of cinnamon twigs that it then ignited; both nest and bird burned fiercely and would be reduced to ashes, from which a new, young phoenix arose. The new phoenix embalmed the ashes of the old phoenix in an egg made of myrrh and deposited it in the Egyptian city of Heliopolis ("the city of the sun" in Greek).

The Bennu was pictured as a grey, purple, blue, or white heron with a long beak and a two-feathered crest. Occasionally it was depicted as a yellow wagtail, or as an eagle with feathers of red and gold. In rare instances the Bennu was pictured as a man with the head of a heron, wearing a white or blue mummy dress under a transparent long coat. Because of its connection to Egyptian religion, the Bennu was considered the “soul” of the god Atum, Ra, or Osiris, and was sometimes called “He Who Came Into Being by Himself,” “Ascending One,” and “Lord of Jubilees.” These names and the connection with Ra, the sun god, reflected not just the ancient Egyptian belief in a spiritual continuation of life after physical death, but also reflected the natural process of the Nile River's rising and falling, which the Egyptians depended upon for survival. The Bennu also became closely connected to the Egyptian calendar, and the Egyptians kept intricate time measuring devices in the Bennu Temple.

Persian

The Huma, also known as the "bird of paradise," is a Persian mythological bird, similar to the Egyptian phoenix. It consumes itself in fire every few hundred years, only to rise anew from the ashes. The Huma is considered to be a compassionate bird and its touch is said to bring great fortune.

The Huma bird joins both the male and female natures together in one body, each sharing a wing and a leg. It avoids killing for food, rather preferring to feed on carrion. The Persians teach that great blessings come to that person on whom the Huma's shadow falls.

According to Sufi master Hazrat Inayat Kahn, the word huma in the Persian language stands for a fabulous bird. There is a belief that if the huma bird sits for a moment on someone's head it is a sign that he will become a king. Its true meaning is that when a person's thoughts evolve so that they break all limitation, he then becomes a king. It is the limitation of language that it can only describe the Most High as something like a king.

Greek

The Greeks adapted the word bennu and identified it with their own word phoenix 'φοινιξ', meaning the color purple-red or crimson. They and the Romans subsequently pictured the bird more like a peacock or an eagle. According to Greek mythology, the phoenix lived in Arabia next to a well. At dawn, it bathed in the water of the well, and the Greek sun-god Apollo stopped his chariot (the sun) in order to listen to its song.

Oriental

The phoenix (known as Garuda in Sanskrit) is the mystical fire bird which is considered as the chariot of the Hindu god Vishnu. Its reference can be found in the Hindu epic Ramayana.

In Tibet, the phoenix is also called Garuda, which means "the bird of life" and is depicted as a conglomerate of the typical brightly colored bird, eagle, and human.

In China, the phoenix is called Feng-huang and symbolizes completeness, incorporating the basic elements of music, colors, nature, as well as the joining of yin and yang. It is a symbol of peace, and represents fire, the sun, justice, obedience, and fidelity. The Feng-huang, unlike the phoenix which dies and is reborn, is truly immortal although it only appears in times of peace and prosperity.


Now that we all agree on Phoenix's symbolic connection with nature, we can ask ourselves about its role within the Heroes of Might and Magic franchise.

Lots of fans criticize H2-3 lovers to be "stuck in the 90's", I hope I can provide relevant information.

First I'd like to mention that I've read some disambiguations about Ashan, such as people saying Phoenix doesn't belong to "Sylvan" etc. While it could be a matter of taste some like better Ashan than Enroth, I'd like to remind Ashan is part of the HoM&M world and it is not the other way around. Creatures, moreover iconic ones, should not be ruled in or out for the sole World reason.

Secondly, H3 was the first game to replace Phoenixes with Dragons and I might need to recall to some people that this change wasn't best welcomed by all. Hopefully H3 turned out to be such a great game that Dragons went just fine, but still. Then we had it back in the sadly failed H4, and H5 featured Dragon Champions as in H3 again. Then, No Sylvan in H6 (!)

So no, some of us don't forget Phoenix's affiliation with Sorceress/Rampart/Nature/Sylvan Elven town, its proper coming back is awaited for now 15 years.

Phoenix represents a lot to this faction, so please people, be respectful towards the franchise and avoid silly statements like "Phoenix will burn the forest", which is clearly a bad tasted joke turned into hateful and mindless propaganda.

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Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted September 16, 2014 05:08 PM

Galaad said:
Now that we all agree on Phoenix's symbolic connection with nature (...)

No we don't. All you just quoted connects the phoenix to life, which is Asha's domain.
If the phoenix would be depicted as a colorful bird that would only burst into flames upon death, it might fit into the nature faction. However in the last four installments the phoenix has been depicted as a bird on fire, which doesn't fit into the forest at all.

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RMZ1989
RMZ1989


Supreme Hero
posted September 16, 2014 05:16 PM

Nice try Elvin, but Moonix still sucks!

On the serious note, I've said countless times why I dislike Moonix, not just in Sylvan but as unit in Heroes franchise.

We all know that things like "Phoenixes will burn the forest" or something similar are just excuses for not liking the unit, but on the other hand "positive" arguments how "Phoenixes belong in this town because they were in it in H1,H2 and H4" are just equally bad. Even in the most played series(H3, that is rated by majority of community to be the best) Phoenixes weren't in Rampart.

This is Ashan, new universe, completely different from H1-H4, and they established some things here that shouldn't be changed. If Phoenixes were in Sylvan town in other games(Heroes 5, 6, Duel of Champions, Clash of Heroes) that use Ashan universe I wouldn't have problems with them being in Sylvan(except for the fact that I would still absolutely hate them, but that is beside the point), but inconsistency in Ashan is boggling my mind.

If you take a look at H1-H4, there are other units that could be in Sylvan but are now belonging to other factions, like Dwarves or Centaurs, and I am pretty sure that you can make same arguments for Dwarves as you did for Phoenixes and how they belong to Sylvan but it won't change the fact that majority of people won't like Dwarves in Sylvan now after Heroes 5, where we had established Dwarf faction.


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Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted September 16, 2014 05:22 PM

Don't know where you got the idea, but I'm not Elvin
It's not that I dislike phoenixes (although I hated fighting them in H6), but just like you I feel that they either belong as a neutral or in academy. I prefer them as neutral, making them summonable as a lvl 5 spell like in heroes 5. That way phoenixes would still be in the game and everyone can enjoy them

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 16, 2014 05:22 PM

Copied from the sylvan lineup thread:

Quote:
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Phoenix_%28mythology%29

From religious and naturalistic symbolism in ancient Egypt [...]

the Bennu(earliest phoenix version) created itself from a fire that was burned on a holy tree in one of the sacred precincts of the temple of Ra.

In China, the phoenix is called Feng-huang and symbolizes completeness, incorporating the basic elements of music, colors, nature, as well as the joining of yin and yang. It is a symbol of peace [...]

From other sources:

In Judaism, the phoenix is known as Milcham or Chol (or Hol): The story of the phoenix begins in the Garden of Eden

The phoenix is a bird of Arabia, so called either because its colouring is Phoenician purple (Bennu also featured blue/purple)

When it is old, it builds a pyre of wood and spices and climbs on to it. (Guess where it finds them? )

When it has lived for five centuries, it then builds a nest for itself in the topmost branches of a swaying palm tree, using only its beak and talons. As soon as it has lined it with cassia bark, and smooth spikes of nard, cinnamon fragments and yellow myrrh, it settles on top, and ends its life among the perfumes. (The Metamorphoses, Book 15, 391-417)

The phoenix, of which there is only one in the world, is the size of an eagle. It is gold around the neck, its body is purple, and its tail is blue with some rose-colored feathers. [1st century CE] (Natural History, Book 10, 2)

The phoenix is a bird of Arabia, which gets its name from its purple (phoeniceus) color; or because it is singular and unique in the world and the Arabs call singular and unique phoenix. It lives for 500 years or more. When it sees that it has grown old it builds a pyre for itself from spices and twigs, and facing the rays of the rising sun ignites a fire and fans it with its wings, and rises again from its own ashes. [7th century CE] (Etymologies, Book 12, 7:22)

hammerhand said:

and pheonixes in many culture can belong to forests too, slavic£¬Chinese, etc.in chinese myth, pheonixes  dwell on a giant sacred tree.


It is obvious that there are more than one versions of the phoenix, differing on the colour, natural habitat and so on. But there are mentions of a blue phoenix, that lives in a woodland area. I bet most of you don't know that the unicorn has different versions either. How would you feel about a multi-coloured unicorn?

Bonus mention:

The firebird, phoenix's Russian cousin is said to glow wonderfully in the darkness of the forest and is often involved in great and impossible quests

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted September 16, 2014 05:23 PM

well as much as I agree with you Galaad, I can't deny that the Ashan people have a point

I mean it is simply a total contradiction of the last few games to reshuffle the phoenix into the Sylvan town
you're either gonna have a big blue bird in there, or a big violation of this universe that everyone is expected to take so seriously, that is a problem and there's simply no two ways around it

I really, really wish Ashan were just its own IP or brand without the Might and Magic name, because I agree it has potential but its main values come into direct conflict with the whimsical spirit of the MM series in situations like these

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RMZ1989
RMZ1989


Supreme Hero
posted September 16, 2014 05:36 PM
Edited by RMZ1989 at 17:36, 16 Sep 2014.

Steyn said:
Don't know where you got the idea, but I'm not Elvin
It's not that I dislike phoenixes (although I hated fighting them in H6), but just like you I feel that they either belong as a neutral or in academy. I prefer them as neutral, making them summonable as a lvl 5 spell like in heroes 5. That way phoenixes would still be in the game and everyone can enjoy them

Nah, I was joking about Galaad being Elvin because he supports Phoenixes. ^^
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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 16, 2014 06:12 PM
Edited by Protolisk at 18:18, 16 Sep 2014.

I find it funny that people decide that using real world mythology to describe a creature in a video game is the best way to defend their position, especially since this series hasn't gotten many other creatures "right" according to myths. (It would be rather un-fun to have a dust/clay golem and those only, right?)

The point is, as it stands, Phoenixes in Ashan have been varied, between a neutral draconic "birds of pure fire" (H5), Academy owned multicolored birds (in Clash of Heroes, they could be Yellow, Purple or Blue...), or neutral beings based off the moon/Asha's life aspect (H6, the Duel of Champions Moon Phoenix)

I don't know if there are phoenixes in Dark Messiah or M&MX, or if there are others so far in Duel of Champions, but if there are, they would either be the same as the three described above, or even more diverse.

Fact is, there have been many different colored, differently based Phoenixes throughout the Ashan universe. A new type for Sylvan wouldn't be too far fetched. Although I would personally prefer a neutral Phoenix, I won't mind a Earth/Sylvan-aligned one.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted September 16, 2014 06:14 PM
Edited by Galaad at 20:26, 16 Sep 2014.

Elvin said:
Copied from the sylvan lineup thread

No you copied, my post was there first ! Anyway is good Phoenix got its own thread I believe..
Verriker said:
you're either gonna have a big blue bird in there, or a big violation of this universe that everyone is expected to take so seriously, that is a problem and there's simply no two ways around it

I think I can live with Phoenix being blue, and isn't the way having it currently being offered by Ubi through voting process ?
Steyn said:
All you just quoted connects the phoenix to life, which is Asha's domain
And what is nature if not life ? Though Elvin's post makes affiliation clearer

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 16, 2014 10:15 PM
Edited by Elvin at 22:16, 16 Sep 2014.

I meant that *I* copied my post here

Protolisk said:
I find it funny that people decide that using real world mythology to describe a creature in a video game is the best way to defend their position, especially since this series hasn't gotten many other creatures "right" according to myths. (It would be rather un-fun to have a dust/clay golem and those only, right?)

The point is, as it stands, Phoenixes in Ashan have been varied, between a neutral draconic "birds of pure fire" (H5), Academy owned multicolored birds (in Clash of Heroes, they could be Yellow, Purple or Blue...), or neutral beings based off the moon/Asha's life aspect (H6, the Duel of Champions Moon Phoenix)

My point was that there is some basis for the new phoenix concept, rather than ubi making it different for the heck of it. I far prefered the homm 2 version of course but this was not some random Ashanification. I hate it when they radically change stuff we have grown to love, especially when that change is for the worse. This phoenix retains its signature abilities and looks majestic so it's fine in my book.

I would not be surprised if there was a twist to it, considering the odd retcon here and there. Ashan tries to be well-defined and coherent but it's still evolving and I'd much rather see a change in things that don't work well than see them unchanged for consistency's sake. I don't want my units to look the same in every game, who would want that? Unless they are to change for the worse
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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted September 16, 2014 10:26 PM

A lot of you don't know that in short term fire is bad for nature, but in long term it helps to build something stronger and new from the ashes. Phoenix symbolizes that perfectly.

I still voted for the Strength of the Forest, but I see no problem in Phoenix at all.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted September 16, 2014 10:37 PM

Elvin said:
I would not be surprised if there was a twist to it, considering the odd retcon here and there. Ashan tries to be well-defined and coherent but it's still evolving and I'd much rather see a change in things that don't work well than see them unchanged for consistency's sake. I don't want my units to look the same in every game, who would want that? Unless they are to change for the worse


the thing is, if they alter this again, they have literally no excuse not to alter that again, where "that" is every other unpopular creature redesign. at this point, I would kind of prefer they just stick by their guns than pull even more threads out of the setting they're trying to create.

either that, or pick another setting, or just be fair to everyone and outright stop stylising creatures so radically, because the generic designs of H1-4 made the world very flexible for mapmakers

I mean, will the moronic lich of Ashan be fixed? the bald floating guy who's currently standing in place of the kickass skeletal wizard from the old games?
will the two headed cerberus be changed back? and how exactly do you decide whether something doesn't work, such as the color coding which I personally find to be the lamest thing they've done?

plus they have already said the Moonix is going to be in, lol

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blob2
blob2


Legendary Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted September 16, 2014 10:58 PM
Edited by blob2 at 22:59, 16 Sep 2014.

Phoenix, Moonix, Dayix, Nightix... S#itix

It all means snow if the game will be bad...

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ninjata12
ninjata12


Adventuring Hero
posted September 16, 2014 11:19 PM

For people who don't like the phoenix - it's a champion unit, so you can just ignore it and play with the dragon. But for example I don't like blade dancers and if Fury wins I will have to use them anyway...
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 17, 2014 12:14 AM

verriker said:
well as much as I agree with you Galaad, I can't deny that the Ashan people have a point

I mean it is simply a total contradiction of the last few games to reshuffle the phoenix into the Sylvan town
you're either gonna have a big blue bird in there, or a big violation of this universe that everyone is expected to take so seriously, that is a problem and there's simply no two ways around it
There is actually, it's called another retcon. Remember, according to the H5 timeline, Necropolis shouldn't even have been a big force within the Silver Cities by the Second Eclipse, never mind a separate faction.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted September 17, 2014 12:22 AM

MattII said:
There is actually, it's called another retcon


hello there MattII, fun fact, did you know that "another retcon" falls under the umbrella of "big violation of this universe that everyone is expected to take so seriously"?

sigh, lol

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Marzhin
Marzhin

Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
posted September 17, 2014 12:25 AM
Edited by Marzhin at 00:26, 17 Sep 2014.

MattII said:
There is actually, it's called another retcon. Remember, according to the H5 timeline, Necropolis shouldn't even have been a big force within the Silver Cities by the Second Eclipse, never mind a separate faction.


I don't see where there's a retcon. In H6, Necromancers have existed for one century. That's more than enough time to have their own wardrobes, their own architectural style, and slightly starting to get on everyone's nerves
Technically speaking, Necromancers are still part of the Seven Cities during H6.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 17, 2014 12:38 AM

Marzhin said:
I don't see where there's a retcon. In H6, Necromancers have existed for one century. That's more than enough time to have their own wardrobes, their own architectural style, and slightly starting to get on everyone's nerves
Technically speaking, Necromancers are still part of the Seven Cities during H6.
Maybe you missed it, but they didn't even start becoming a major factor within the cities for another half-century or so.

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Marzhin
Marzhin

Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
posted September 17, 2014 12:56 AM

MattII said:
Maybe you missed it, but they didn't even start becoming a major factor within the cities for another half-century or so.


In H6, they're not. The other Wizards don't really care about Necromancers. For all we know, no Necromancer is sitting at the Circle of Nine that rules the Cities.
It's a different story in Shades of Darkness however (one century later).

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 17, 2014 01:13 AM
Edited by MattII at 01:16, 17 Sep 2014.

The faction was called the Necropolis, so no, it's not mere sect of the wizards, but a separate faction, only, half a century before it's supposed to be even a reasonable power within the cities, and over two centuries before it's supposed to be separate. The fact is, Ubisoft is crap at sticking to even its own limitations.

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