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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Wrong creatures in wrong factions & constructive criticism
Thread: Wrong creatures in wrong factions & constructive criticism
Paiazza
Paiazza


Known Hero
لىخ ضل
posted October 07, 2014 04:16 PM
Edited by Paiazza at 16:26, 07 Oct 2014.

Wrong creatures in wrong factions & constructive criticism

This is about what you think it's wrong in heroes game series and would want to be fixed and how you'd want to be fixed, mainly focusing on which creatures belong to which factions and right/wrong faction themes. On topic - regarding H7.

Haven - they have too many humans, this seems to rather be a class faction based on human race.

Academy - i don't like the idea of magic zombies (titan/golem/gargoyle), i'd rather see them as living creatures especially titan and gargoyle, where gargoyle statue to only be the reference of real gargoyle which we should have in game, leaving only the golem to be magically created creature.

Sylvan - not much to say here, overall ok, some creatures design could have an improvement

Stronghold - way to arabic in h7, way to aztec in h6, instead let stronghold have it's own theme, which is orchish = brutal & might. Regarding creatures they should have ogres and trolls as well as orcs instead of orc classes.

Necropolis - why do they have to be sheer bareboned / rotten? Bring some dark theme here instead of green lantern theme. Dark , gloomy, dusty, old, ancient necropolis. Totally remove spiders and spider theme (the only relevance is that old things tend to be covered in dust and spider web). I would see nightmare fitting here rather than inferno, a headless knight riding flaming nightmares, and maybe werewolves and cerberus as well (cerberus is the guardian of hades, more belonging here).

Inferno - why do they have to be so burning? way too much red color. Change theme to hellish instead of burning. Recolor anything red, make it aflame and give it horns and voila you made a new demon. Way too many adjective named demons in h6, should rather have a more diverse creatures instead. There are a lot of demons that could be in inferno, rather than only burning demons. Nagas are creatures that live in hell according to they mythology, but we have them in sanctuary or tower instead.

Dungeon - why do they have to be so purple? i'd rather split this faction into two, proper dungeon and purple dark elves. Dungeon should be more about creepy, lurking in the depths creatures not recolor anything purple. The idea of hydra belonging here is wrong, beholder creatures like gave that wrong impression hydra belongs here, instead tentacles creatures like do indeed belong here like lurkers etc.

Sanctuary - for a rather newly formed faction, it's debut wasn't very great, could have had more lizards


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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted October 07, 2014 04:25 PM

I've written a few similar things a while back, which I still stand by.
You can read them HERE, HERE, HERE & HERE.
____________
Iron from Ice.

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Hobo2
Hobo2


Promising
Known Hero
posted October 07, 2014 05:56 PM bonus applied by Elvin on 11 Oct 2014.

Haven: It is OK in my mind to have a faction that is almost or entirely composed of people holding different weapons. Haven is within its rights to have humans with spears, humans with crossbows, humans with swords, humans on horses, and humans with staves. I think they probably cross the line by having three units that have swords. Sword and shield, two handed sword, and twin swords are all nominally different, but it really pushes the limit.

That being said, I would prefer it if they had more heraldric monsters. The Dire Wolf or Griffin is fine, but having both Dire Wolves and Griffins would be even better. Dire Wolves, Griffins, and Unicorns or Wyverns or something would be better still. What they have for Haven in Heroes 7 is minimally acceptable, but it would have been better if they had figured out how to have less people with swords and more mythical beasts.

Stronghold: I have pretty much no problems with any of the Stronghold lineups from a thematic standpoint. I really liked the look of the Heroes 6 Stronghold, where they made they dress up like various actual tribes from around the world rather than just shallow Conan-style "barbarians." Their problems have always been mechanical rather than lineup. In Heroes 6, a game which revolved almost entirely on loss minimization, they were the only faction to have no intrinsic healing or temporary troop creation. That made them mechanically bad, but I don't see anything wrong with Orcs, Ogres, and Goblins in tribal outfits per se. They can have any or all of Harpies, Behemoths, Thunderbirds, Centaurs, Trolls, Cyclopses, Dire Wolves, or even other stuff altogether. It's a very forgiving faction. It just has to work with the mechanics the edition offers.

Academy: This is also a pretty forgiving faction. Basically you just need Genies and Mages, and everything else is optional. The Mages don't even have to be a particular race. You could announce that the Academy Mages were Gnomes, Dwarves, or Gremlins and have them be really short. Or you could have them be Humans, Elves, or Lizardfolk and be normal size. You could have them be giant bugs or tiny halflings, it really doesn't matter. Tower/Order/Academy has had the basic race changed on them repeatedly and it honestly doesn't seem to matter. The other creatures in the faction similarly change a lot, and that seems OK as well. I miss the Naga when she isn't there, but life does go on. I don't think they even need the Titan, and I'd be inclined to put the Titan into the Dungeon with Medusae and Minotaurs to get a Greek thing going. If Academy is going for a more middle-eastern theme, they can always poach some more of the Conflux themes and get Phoenixes and Elementals or use some of the Persian monsters like Rocs and Manticores. I'm fine with them having a construct subfaction that is anywhere from large to non-existent. They could have any or none of: Gargoyles, Golems, Steam Dragons, Droids, Repair Droids.

Sylvan: Probably the most forgiving faction. Any number of critters from the old Morale Class C plus anything else you want from an AD&D Druid's forest friends list until you run out of spaces.

Necropolis: Next to Sylvan, the most forgiving faction. I don't think this faction was really done wrong in any version of the game (except obviously HoMM 1, where they didn't exist). They can be made of any amount of skeletal, ghostly, or fleshy undead monsters. They can even have any number of living units, so long as those living units agree to wear a lot of black and listen to The Cure. Heck, those living units don't even have to wear clothes, as long as they look like the kind of creature that would wear black and listen to The Cure if they wore clothes at all. Kings Bounty, Heroes 6, and Heroes 4 had living demonic units in the Necro army, and that was fine. Personally, I'd go with an agriculture theme, with scythes and flails and peasants for the vampires to eat, but I think pretty much anything the developers go with will be OK.

Inferno: One word: Boring. The Inferno is mostly just Hell Hounds and a pile of red skinned people with horns and/or wings. The only interesting unit introduced since Heroes 3 was the Breeder, and that was weird and kind of dumb. I think the only thing to do with this faction is just to drop it entirely until you can come up with at least five units that aren't "a red skinned dude with horns."

Dungeon: Ubisoft has handled this faction terribly. They are supposed to be a creature heavy faction, but instead we get a pile of Elves with just a couple of monsters. That's exactly wrong. I honestly don't care whether the basic population of the Dungeons are Dark Elves or Troglodytes, but whichever it is I don't want to see more than one unit on the list being from the townfolk. Everything else should be monsters. I don't care which monsters you choose, but there'd better be a lot of them. Heroes 5 had four Elves with different weapons. That was insulting. Personally, I'd go for a Greek theme, where the Dungeon populace wore togas and they got Greek monsters like the Medusa, Minotaur, Centaur, and Titan, but it would be completely OK if they went full D&D craziness and had Beholders and Soul Flayers and Cave Crabs and such. Or something else entirely. The only bottom line is that there needs to be a lot of creatures and if there are four Elves again that will be three Elves too many.

Sanctuary: Basically OK. It does the full Japanese thing well enough. My only real problem with the lineup is Spring Spirits, because those aren't conceptually different from Snow Maidens or Water Elementals. Heck, they don't even look different from Water Elementals, it's just a palette swap. Like everything in Heroes 6, it spent too much time ramming its faction color down our throats, but if you swapped the Spring Spirits out for something else from Japanese lore (like an Oni) that isn't "another female water spirit."

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cleglaw
cleglaw


Famous Hero
posted October 07, 2014 06:13 PM
Edited by cleglaw at 21:01, 08 Oct 2014.

Haven

i think they are better this way. nearly no high fantasty creature in their line-ups feels right to me. they are filling the role -worldish faction-

Academy

i dont agree with this. wizards are like gods, they like to create. they are brains, not muscles. its normal them to use artificial muscles-golems, orc experiment and such- in army.

Sylvan

i have no comment in this.

Stronghold

i completely agree, it was way too much similar to world-cultures. i can say the same for sanctuary too. both of them should be less world-cultural.

Necropolis

ashan is build on spier theme-necro connection, they cant just take it back now. and i like spider theme, it has some good lore in it. on the other hand i really dislike green neons creatures-towns have. they shouldnt be this much greenish-glowy. i doesnt feel right. i expect want a spooky-king theme.

Inferno

same problem in necro, inferno in h6 is too much red. more horns/more wings with different kinds and more type of bodies(like wurm, like drake, like mounted unit...) using more colors would feel perfect yet still infernal. it doesnt have to be red-humanoids.

Dungeon

same problem with inferno and necro but even more! really too much purple, sometimes i regret upgrading my minotaurs/manticores. town literally shines with purple colors. h3 dungeon is much more dark then ashan dungeon which i find very ironic. it should be made much lss purple and much more dark like it was supposed to be.  

i would rather have basilisks-evil eyes in dungeon in champion/elite position. they have no problems with theme and they fit perfectly. i saw a cult in baldurs gate, it was a blind cult. they carve out their own eyes and worship a big beholder. i think this would be perfect for heroes dungeon. evil eyes in champion, supported by blind cult army, basilisk in elite. this felt much more right and evil and ofcourse much more attuned with darkness.

Sanctuary

water theme is good, but i think it has same problem stronghold has, too much world-culture in it. and also they had too much female sprits, only one would be better.

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Kurush
Kurush


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2014 01:52 PM

@ hobo2

They did redraw the water elemental in DoC(looks very much like the one from H5)

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Kimarous
Kimarous


Supreme Hero
posted October 08, 2014 07:15 PM

I don't really have a faction-by-faction breakdown like others, but I do have something to say about Inferno - after a bit of extrapolation.

Last night, I decided that I'd come up with my own pseudo-HoMM universe as if it were, as another user suggested in another topic, like Final Fantasy and each instalment had its own continuity. The big twist in my version would be that every single faction could serve as both hero and villain - a comparatively good side, and a comparatively bad side. Haven would have "Nobility vs Tyranny", Academy had "Understanding vs Extravagance", Sylvan was "Synergy vs Savagery" and so forth. Ultimately I found that coming up with entire rosters of mostly original creatures for multiple factions was a bit too much for my puny little mind, especially when trying to mix two unrelated together. Sure, trying to make a choice between Griffin and Manticore with a base "Winged Lion" creature sounds fine at first, but then visualizing it makes it... yeah, no. Still, I do think there's some potential in a "good guy vs bad guy" split in the upgrade selection.

Now where am I going with this? My split with Inferno was "Purgatory vs Hell" - the demons who serve a role in cosmic judgment and keep the afterlife in line, and the ones who succumb to their own darkness and assemble hordes of the damned on extradimensional incursions on the living. Pit Lords who lead against Pit Fiends who run wild - the Damned cursed to fight for eternity vs the Purged who burn away their sins through valour - the warden-guardian Cerberus vs the unruly beast Orthus - Succubus Seducers who tempt those to fall vs Succubus Relievers who ease the suffering of their allies.

And that's when I ran into a brick wall and couldn't think of anything more. Why? I'm one of those people who has absolutely no problem with the whole "big red flaming devil" aesthetic of traditional demons and I struggle to think of "demons" that do not fall under that category.

Oh, sure, I did have an idea for a big cosmic horror unit to be included... in the Academy faction. A Cthulhu-like being torn out from the space between spaces, not from the realms of the afterlife; not demon, not angel, but something unknowable from the beyond... the perfect subject of research.

Maybe it is just me, but I have a mental block that keeps me from visualizing "cosmic horror" entities as "demons." For me, "cosmic horrors" are a class unto their own. Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with things like the Breeder Mother being added to the Inferno faction; I think it was a great addition and I hope we see more like it. I just can't think of such entities on my own, at least while counting them in my own concept of demons.

So for the complaints of there's "too much red", "too much flame", and so forth, I'm really at a loss for what to do. Maybe I'm just the wrong person to discuss the matter, and maybe this was just a bunch of TL;DR for people in that camp. I will conclude with one question, however - if that's what you DON'T want, what DO you want instead? "Something else" is not a clear enough idea to work with.

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Hobo2
Hobo2


Promising
Known Hero
posted October 08, 2014 08:03 PM

If you're struggling to come up with more Demons, crack open a D&D monster book. Seriously, any D&D monster book from any edition at all (including Pathfinder). They just fall over themselves making Demons, Devils, Demodands, Daemons, etc. There is a long tradition of making new fiends in that game, and there are enough of them that look pretty cool that you could easily fill an 8 unit or 13 unit faction.







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Jackissocool
Jackissocool


Hired Hero
posted October 08, 2014 08:57 PM

Hobo2 said:
Haven: It is OK in my mind to have a faction that is almost or entirely composed of people holding different weapons. Haven is within its rights to have humans with spears, humans with crossbows, humans with swords, humans on horses, and humans with staves. I think they probably cross the line by having three units that have swords. Sword and shield, two handed sword, and twin swords are all nominally different, but it really pushes the limit.

That being said, I would prefer it if they had more heraldric monsters. The Dire Wolf or Griffin is fine, but having both Dire Wolves and Griffins would be even better. Dire Wolves, Griffins, and Unicorns or Wyverns or something would be better still. What they have for Haven in Heroes 7 is minimally acceptable, but it would have been better if they had figured out how to have less people with swords and more mythical beasts.

Stronghold: I have pretty much no problems with any of the Stronghold lineups from a thematic standpoint. I really liked the look of the Heroes 6 Stronghold, where they made they dress up like various actual tribes from around the world rather than just shallow Conan-style "barbarians." Their problems have always been mechanical rather than lineup. In Heroes 6, a game which revolved almost entirely on loss minimization, they were the only faction to have no intrinsic healing or temporary troop creation. That made them mechanically bad, but I don't see anything wrong with Orcs, Ogres, and Goblins in tribal outfits per se. They can have any or all of Harpies, Behemoths, Thunderbirds, Centaurs, Trolls, Cyclopses, Dire Wolves, or even other stuff altogether. It's a very forgiving faction. It just has to work with the mechanics the edition offers.

Academy: This is also a pretty forgiving faction. Basically you just need Genies and Mages, and everything else is optional. The Mages don't even have to be a particular race. You could announce that the Academy Mages were Gnomes, Dwarves, or Gremlins and have them be really short. Or you could have them be Humans, Elves, or Lizardfolk and be normal size. You could have them be giant bugs or tiny halflings, it really doesn't matter. Tower/Order/Academy has had the basic race changed on them repeatedly and it honestly doesn't seem to matter. The other creatures in the faction similarly change a lot, and that seems OK as well. I miss the Naga when she isn't there, but life does go on. I don't think they even need the Titan, and I'd be inclined to put the Titan into the Dungeon with Medusae and Minotaurs to get a Greek thing going. If Academy is going for a more middle-eastern theme, they can always poach some more of the Conflux themes and get Phoenixes and Elementals or use some of the Persian monsters like Rocs and Manticores. I'm fine with them having a construct subfaction that is anywhere from large to non-existent. They could have any or none of: Gargoyles, Golems, Steam Dragons, Droids, Repair Droids.

Sylvan: Probably the most forgiving faction. Any number of critters from the old Morale Class C plus anything else you want from an AD&D Druid's forest friends list until you run out of spaces.

Necropolis: Next to Sylvan, the most forgiving faction. I don't think this faction was really done wrong in any version of the game (except obviously HoMM 1, where they didn't exist). They can be made of any amount of skeletal, ghostly, or fleshy undead monsters. They can even have any number of living units, so long as those living units agree to wear a lot of black and listen to The Cure. Heck, those living units don't even have to wear clothes, as long as they look like the kind of creature that would wear black and listen to The Cure if they wore clothes at all. Kings Bounty, Heroes 6, and Heroes 4 had living demonic units in the Necro army, and that was fine. Personally, I'd go with an agriculture theme, with scythes and flails and peasants for the vampires to eat, but I think pretty much anything the developers go with will be OK.

Inferno: One word: Boring. The Inferno is mostly just Hell Hounds and a pile of red skinned people with horns and/or wings. The only interesting unit introduced since Heroes 3 was the Breeder, and that was weird and kind of dumb. I think the only thing to do with this faction is just to drop it entirely until you can come up with at least five units that aren't "a red skinned dude with horns."

Dungeon: Ubisoft has handled this faction terribly. They are supposed to be a creature heavy faction, but instead we get a pile of Elves with just a couple of monsters. That's exactly wrong. I honestly don't care whether the basic population of the Dungeons are Dark Elves or Troglodytes, but whichever it is I don't want to see more than one unit on the list being from the townfolk. Everything else should be monsters. I don't care which monsters you choose, but there'd better be a lot of them. Heroes 5 had four Elves with different weapons. That was insulting. Personally, I'd go for a Greek theme, where the Dungeon populace wore togas and they got Greek monsters like the Medusa, Minotaur, Centaur, and Titan, but it would be completely OK if they went full D&D craziness and had Beholders and Soul Flayers and Cave Crabs and such. Or something else entirely. The only bottom line is that there needs to be a lot of creatures and if there are four Elves again that will be three Elves too many.

Sanctuary: Basically OK. It does the full Japanese thing well enough. My only real problem with the lineup is Spring Spirits, because those aren't conceptually different from Snow Maidens or Water Elementals. Heck, they don't even look different from Water Elementals, it's just a palette swap. Like everything in Heroes 6, it spent too much time ramming its faction color down our throats, but if you swapped the Spring Spirits out for something else from Japanese lore (like an Oni) that isn't "another female water spirit."

I agree with all of this, although H6 did a much better job than H5 at having creepy monsters in Dungeon.

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