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NACHOOOO
Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
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posted October 10, 2014 02:05 PM |
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Edited by NACHOOOO at 14:08, 10 Oct 2014.
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blob2 said:
That's why I voted neither. While H6 system is similar to H3, it has a big flaw imo: squares instead of hexes...
Blob2 I still disagree. It has a negative impact on creature creation which imo leads to creatures of different factions being too similar. I don't like that the highest initiative creatures having to wait for everything else to go if the wait button is used. I don't like that the lowest initiative creatures wait button does absolutely nothing.
Why do you think hexes make such a big difference? I'm interested to know what kind of system you'd implement instead as well. Besides you never know who's reading
Alex I don't understand your logic. Yes Heroes is a TBS, but it is not chess. Chess does not have spells. Chess does not have heroes. You can still have a tbs where things are dynamic. It is the exact reason why spells like haste and slow exist, same goes for morale and luck. These are all examples of things that are dynamic
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Magic Bird, only a working
title. Phew
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 10, 2014 02:21 PM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 14:32, 10 Oct 2014.
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H5 all the way, ATB was a great idea!
...while the random starting ATB was a HORRIBLE idea.
Elvin said:
That's 80% initiative reduction!
No it's not. No wonder the greek economy is doing so bad with economists like you. 
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 10, 2014 02:22 PM |
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Quote:
Alex I don't understand your logic. Yes Heroes is a TBS, but it is not chess. Chess does not have spells. Chess does not have heroes. You can still have a tbs where things are dynamic. It is the exact reason why spells like haste and slow exist, same goes for morale and luck. These are all examples of things that are dynamic
Let's look at the simplest case. In case of two units (A and B) we have the following turn order under the classic system:
A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B
And this one with ATB:
A-B-A-B-A-A-B-A-B-A-A-B
It's not fair to B 
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 10, 2014 02:24 PM |
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NACHOOOO said:
Storm-Giant said:
Just because something sounds better in theory doesn't mean it'll be better in practice. Turn based combat has been proven successfully several times in the series, the same can't be said about ATB.
That is no lie SG. But just because we know something works to an acceptable level doesn't mean that it can't be improved upon. From your previous posts I got the impression that you were moving over to the H5 side of the house? Look I'm not completely opposed to the H6 initiative system, and if someone has an argument that is convincing enough I'd change my opinion, but I haven't seen anything on here that has convinced me that it is the better system. Not only that but it is far from faultless as I've previously mentioned
You get me wrong, in that post I was just addressing Stevie post, as I disagree with his opinion.
My position is that both system can work. Turns are the safest choice as they have been used in the past (with no little success), while ATB I think it deserves another chance with a better thought design. Be in H7 or further, that's up to the developers
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted October 10, 2014 02:27 PM |
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NACHOOOO said:
I don't like that the highest initiative creatures having to wait for everything else to go if the wait button is used. I don't like that the lowest initiative creatures wait button does absolutely nothing.
1. ATB system still doesn't change that. It even worsens it...
2. What about battles in which creatures have similar initiatives? You can use Wait then. Besides a slower unit has his uses. I "wait" with my other units, so my slowest Zombie can hit that dragon as the first unit in line and use up it's retaliation. That's what cannon fodder is for 
NACHOOOO said:
Why do you think hexes make such a big difference? I'm interested to know what kind of system you'd implement instead as well. Besides you never know who's reading
The same as in H3?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 10, 2014 02:27 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 14:27, 10 Oct 2014.
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AlexSpl said:
Quote:
Alex I don't understand your logic. Yes Heroes is a TBS, but it is not chess. Chess does not have spells. Chess does not have heroes. You can still have a tbs where things are dynamic. It is the exact reason why spells like haste and slow exist, same goes for morale and luck. These are all examples of things that are dynamic
Let's look at the simplest case. In case of two units (A and B) we have the following turn order under the classic system:
A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B
And this one with ATB:
A-B-A-B-A-A-B-A-B-A-A-B
It's not fair to B
Let's compare Peasants with Dragons.
Peasant attack = 1
Dragon attack = 50
It's not fair for Peasant
Apples and oranges.
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flonembourg
Known Hero
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posted October 10, 2014 02:30 PM |
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JoonasTo said:
H5 all the way, ATB was a great idea!
...while the random starting ATB was a HORRIBLE idea.
+1000
I'll add also the difference between the fastest creatures 17 initiative (air elemental if i remember well) and the slowest with 5 initiative ( earth elemental, useless creature ever)
Air elemental can act 3 times before earth can move.
This should be changed.
Like 100 for the fastest and maybe 50 for the slowest.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 10, 2014 02:31 PM |
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Quote:
Peasant attack = 1
Dragon attack = 50
Because Dragon is Dragon, and Peasant is Peasant. This doesn't mean Dragon should be allowed to hit twice in a row. If you want him to, just give him the 'double-attack' ability.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 10, 2014 02:38 PM |
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Same can be said about your example. Because A is A and B is B. So what's the problem?
You are opposed to the potential of ATB. As I said, it adds a new dimension to the game which turns cannot, and that's frequency. It's an improvement no matter how you look at it.
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NACHOOOO
Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
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posted October 10, 2014 02:40 PM |
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Edited by NACHOOOO at 14:45, 10 Oct 2014.
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AlexSpl said:
Quote:
Alex I don't understand your logic. Yes Heroes is a TBS, but it is not chess. Chess does not have spells. Chess does not have heroes. You can still have a tbs where things are dynamic. It is the exact reason why spells like haste and slow exist, same goes for morale and luck. These are all examples of things that are dynamic
Let's look at the simplest case. In case of two units (A and B) we have the following turn order under the classic system:
A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B-A-B
And this one with ATB:
A-B-A-B-A-A-B-A-B-A-A-B
It's not fair to B
Ok so for how I see a new H5 style initiative system working, your example would be an extreme case, yet still one that could be justified as long as buffs and or debuffs are used. I want you to think bigger picture than two creatures though. Think of a bigger battle.
I'm going to pick two random creatures from factions I haven't used yet. Let's go with Academies Djinn, and Sylvan Moon Doe. Both Elites. Djinn's are traditionally more of a glass cannon, high initiative, high speed, high damage, terrible defense. The Moon Doe we don't know yet but let's say it is more moderate, it has moderate initiative, moderate attack, moderate defense, slightly higher health, and it also has buffing abilities.
By the two creatures having different stats and play styles it is more than fair.
Doing things like this add depth and character to a factions creatures and can easily be balanced. Don't get me confused for wanting creatures that are able to attack a stupid amount of times compared to their peers.
Blob2 personally I don't have an issue going to the square system so you're going to have to explain to me why it's such a big issue and how it affects the initiative system also.
Also, how did the H5 init system worsen the timing of creatures attacks? High initiative creatures went again fairly shortly after you used the wait feature. I agree that the H5 models percentages were out of whack, but if they are reduced then I don't see the problem
____________
Magic Bird, only a working
title. Phew
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 10, 2014 02:50 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 14:51, 10 Oct 2014.
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Quote:
Don't get me confused for wanting creatures that are able to attack a stupid amount of times compared to their peers.
But in the long run, you'll be forced to face the situation described above (A-A-B). It's not fair, because nobody wants to just sit and watch how his opponent tears you own army apart without even a chance to make a countermove.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 10, 2014 02:52 PM |
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Speaking of spellcasting. Heroes should just have an initiative of ten and be able to cast spells whenever they wish. As long their atb is full. After casting it would reset. Very simple.
AlexSpl said:
Quote:
Just because this is a tbs doesn't mean that everything has to be predetermined
HoMM is a TBS to give you time to think about your next move, which you, of course, want to be optimal; and how can you do that if you can't plan your strategy well because so many things are undetermined?
They are not undetermined. If no one does nothing. It will go just as planned.
There are simply more variables to take into account. Instead of distance you also have to take into account time. It's quite simple actually.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted October 10, 2014 02:56 PM |
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Well, hexes give more defensive options (which I prefer). There was a thread somewhere that described all it's peers and aspects thoughtfully. With squares and disproportions in initiative, not only your blocker units don't have a chance to move and change position, when you pair it with squares that give more potential attack directions, makes those slower units utterly useless.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 10, 2014 02:56 PM |
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JoonasTo said:
Speaking of spellcasting. Heroes should just have an initiative of ten and be able to cast spells whenever they wish. As long their atb is full. After casting it would reset. Very simple.
That is something JJ proposed in the previous page, and I agree it'd be a good step if ATB is the choice.
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NACHOOOO
Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
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posted October 10, 2014 02:58 PM |
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AlexSpl said:
Quote:
Don't get me confused for wanting creatures that are able to attack a stupid amount of times compared to their peers.
But in the long run, you'll be forced to face the situation described above (A-A-B). It's not fair, because nobody wants to just sit and see how his opponents tears you own army apart without even a chance to make a countermove.
No because instead of having a situation where you have a zombie with 6 initiative and a blood fury with 14 initiative, I'd much rather see a system where the values are higher and the percentage differences are far less. As I said, your example would be an extreme example. I could see it happening though if one unit was buffed with haste and the other was debuffed with slow so that their initiatives were to opposing values of something like 40 vs 70. The standard however would be that the Djinn may have initiative of 60 while the Moon Doe has initiative of 52. Those numbers are untested and for example only. Combine that with the extra health and the buffing abilities the moon doe has and all is good in the world
____________
Magic Bird, only a working
title. Phew
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 10, 2014 03:00 PM |
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JoonasTo said:
Elvin said:
That's 80% initiative reduction!
No it's not. No wonder the greek economy is doing so bad with economists like you.
Then let me introduce you to bored mathematics. Not as accurate as real mathematics but just as convincing to most people
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 10, 2014 03:01 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 15:01, 10 Oct 2014.
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Quote:
The standard however would be that the Djinn may have initiative of 60 while the Moon Doe has initiative of 52. Those numbers are untested and for example only. Combine that with the extra health and the buffing abilities the moon doe has and all is good in the world
Then how is this better than when Djinn moves first (speed 6), and then Moon Doe (speed 5)?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 10, 2014 03:05 PM |
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Well I liked the H5 system, I think it made sense - and made the combat more interesting - that some creatures would attack more often than others. After all, it doesn't make sense that a fast creature can attack just as frequently as a slow creature.
H5 system did have its issues with balancing. Basic problem was that numbers were chosen in a way so that they made extreme impact. Picture below is an attempt to represent this, the red colour shows each time a creature has a turn. Comparing a creature with INT 5 to a creature of INT 20, one sees that the fast creature will get to act four times by the time the slow one gets its first action, which is a bit excessive. Shifting these values by +5 (to 10 vs. 25) means fast creature only acts 2.5 times as often, whereas shifting them by +10 (15 vs. 30) means it only acts twice as often. As can seen by the picture the frequency of action deviates extremely at very low values, so the problem with H5 was that some creatures had borderline values (6-8) which when combined with slow spell (-40 %) was imbalanced.
I also think that some issues can be helped by interface fixes. If hovering the curser over a creature when casting for instance Slow or Haste spells show the creatures new position on the ATB bar, it will be much easier to predict the outcome of using these spells. In H5, often it was a guess. It is true that it will be harder to plan battles because you don't know what actions opponent will take, but I don't see that as a purely bad thing.
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What will happen now?
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 10, 2014 03:06 PM |
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Occam's razor is a problem-solving principle devised by William of Ockham. It states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Other, more complicated solutions may ultimately prove correct, but—in the absence of certainty—the fewer assumptions that are made, the better.
Wiki
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NACHOOOO
Known Hero
Pessimistically optimistic
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posted October 10, 2014 03:12 PM |
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Edited by NACHOOOO at 15:18, 10 Oct 2014.
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AlexSpl said:
Quote:
The standard however would be that the Djinn may have initiative of 60 while the Moon Doe has initiative of 52. Those numbers are untested and for example only. Combine that with the extra health and the buffing abilities the moon doe has and all is good in the world
Then how is this better than when Djinn moves first (speed 6), and then Moon Doe (speed 5)?
Firstly speed is different from initiative, and secondly there are more creatures in the world than just Djinns and Doe. If you increase the values to the 40s to 60s range, initiative can still be a factor but the devs are able to tweak it so that it isn't as wild as it was in H5. The percentage difference between 5 and 6 is greater than it is between 52 and 60. Also, as a random example if you have a floor of 40 and a ceiling of 70 then you can keep some of those stockier slower creatures from not getting their turns.
There's a difference between assumptions and a lack of understanding
Agreed Alcibiades. The figures he is using should also be used instead of the random numbers I am plucking
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Magic Bird, only a working
title. Phew
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This thread is pages long: 
