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| Thread: Liches, skeletal or humanoid ? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted December 09, 2014 10:38 AM |
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Protolisk said:
kiryu133 said:
damn you and your convincing arguments!
Why, thank you. Never thought me and my opinions would be condemned in such a complimentary way. 
kiryu133 said:
would prefer an offensive necro to be norse-themed over a defensive dwarf faction tbh... when did vikings turn into a turtling type of faction? but i understand though not necessarily agree with this. factions should be diverse in inspiration with nothing more than a vague, central theme open to a myriad of influences. h3 inferno had devils and efreet together and that worked pretty well so why not having a vaguely norse unit in a primarily Egyptian necro? as long as the primary theme isn't hammered in to heavily it should work fine and would allow for plenty of interesting unit in different factions.
True, Inferno worked pretty well with their more Muslim Efreet and some vaguely Judeo-Christian Devils alongside the Greek Cerberus. However, the theme that tied them together is usually demonic or otherwise related to the underworld. Even old Ifrit were evil spirits from below the ground, if I understand correctly. Most Inferno was tied by this idea: demonic beasts from below ground. If indeed the Devils are below ground in Hell, Cerberus in the Underworld, Efreet from under the earth... all lie along the same lines. Even so, as much as people like to tout the opposite, Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all pretty closely related, as Judaism is the "progenitor", so to speak, of the others. They are pretty well tied together.
The problem with Norse themed units in an undead faction is that they don't have a lot to go on. Besides the generic "shade" ghost like beings that live in Helheim, there is no real "lich" in Norse, as far as I can tell. There are Valkyrie, which scour the battlefields for those who are deemed worthy into Valhalla, but Valkyrie aren't really dead, and the Einherjar they produce, which only fight once, at the end of days (it's what the "ein" part of their name means, if I'm not mistaken, as it means roughly "once") Yes, the word "lik" is an old Norse/Germanic word, but it just means corpse or body, and is not tied to the spirit, it didn't mean anything supernatural. It'd be like calling a unit "carcass". Then again, we do have "Skeletons", so it doesn't not have precedent, but otherwise isn't really related to our ideas of Liches as far as I can tell.
If you did want a dead-themed Norse unit, you'd have to go with Valkyries (which are in Fortress) or Einherjar (which seem to be sort of included in our new Fire Giants, because from what I remember, Fire Giants are when a Dwarf dies so spectacularly, Arkath brings em back as a being of flame. Kinda like Valkyries bringing Norse dudes back as these Einherjar after a glorious battle. Kinda), or with the usually unknown Draugr, which are kind of like Ghouls mixed with Ghosts, or Revenants. Still, no lich-like beings like we are accustomed to. It'd be like saying "This here is a dragon" and subsequently showing off a crocodile. Sure, it may look like one, but it isn't really close at all. That's not to say a norse themed death unit isn't viable, but they've either been grabbed by Fortress, or would replace the Ghoul or Ghost rather than supplement the Lich
I do agree with you, the viking heritage that the Dwarves utilize should have more offensive than defensive. But, still, even Dwarves are more mythologically inclined to be Norse, since that's where they come from. Sure, I do agree with the idea that you could have some inspiration from other mythological backgrounds (Academy is filled with Titans and Cabir as greek, Djinn as islamic, Golem as Judaic, Rakshasa as Hindu, Simurgh as Persian, and so forth, and I love them) but with this Hel Lich, it would be drawing inspiration from where there isn't much. There isn't really room for a supernatural spell casting thing in Norse beyond the Volur, which are still pretty alive, basing their teachings from Freyja. Even more, Hel is also half alive. Liches are pretty definitively dead. Finaly, isn't Necro also defensive, and not offensive, with its more easily gained Raise Dead spell and focuses on simply having bigger numbers rather than actual strength? More of a "slow moving meat wall" kind of strategy? Neither Necro nor Fortress are much in the "offensive" category as far as I've seen. At least, not to the effect of Inferno, Stronghold or Sylvan typically are.
But what do I know? 
i don't disagree at all, if any faction should be norse-themed it's barbarians, it was mostly that norse-themed factions should, without fail be offensive, not defensive and if necro were to be be offensive, wich they mostly are not, they would be a better pick for such aestethics but not necessarily units. dwarves can still have trolls and einherjar for all i care but they are too defensive too really utilize a norse aestethic. once again: i'm not disagreeing. dwarves are great for a norse theme (Dark elves or barbarians would be best though). they just need to be offensive is all.
Avirosb said:
Frankly I believe the main source of inspiration for the Lich was the personification of death.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted December 09, 2014 10:55 AM |
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I don't get what you're trying to say with that picture.
I mean for liches as a whole, not just HoMM.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 09, 2014 10:58 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 11:02, 09 Dec 2014.
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In a lot of the old (medieval) artwork, death was basically a skeleton (often without any clothes), looking not unlike the lich, except for the fact that he carried a scythe rather than a staff (although the scythe itself isn't always present).
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 09, 2014 11:40 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 12:03, 09 Dec 2014.
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GenyaArikado said:
well i was the one quoted...
Nope, the post you mentioned wasn't a quote-reply, it was a general answer reflecting my impressions of the suggested idea, nothing more.
Protolisk said:
The liches themselves. Those Disciples dare try to one-up them? They must be shown their place! Powerful wizards of the necromantic arts can't let students outshine them!
Tss Liches developed an inferiority complex since they lost their Death Cloud ability in MMH6 Give it back to them for their greater glory !!
Ps. Nice reply to Kiryu btw
____________
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 09, 2014 04:52 PM |
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Galaad said:
Protolisk said:
The liches themselves. Those Disciples dare try to one-up them? They must be shown their place! Powerful wizards of the necromantic arts can't let students outshine them!
Tss Liches developed an inferiority complex since they lost their Death Cloud ability in MMH6 Give it back to them for their greater glory !!
Ps. Nice reply to Kiryu btw
Why, thank you.
And, yeah, they should add back in the splash damage of the death cloud. Did anyone have that sort of ability in H6? I hope with the Abbot's new ranged retaliation, they are going back to the model of having more varied shooter skills, such as H5's liches and succubi.
Avirosb said:
I don't get what you're trying to say with that picture.
I mean for liches as a whole, not just HoMM.
Most likely, kiryu133 meant that the Wraith is a pretty big showing of the personification of death already. Now, sure, we may not see things the same way, but I never saw Liches as a "personification of death", the H5 Wraiths have that on lock-down. All I ever saw in the HoMM liches were that they were the "supreme magic" side of death. You could have the bare-bones skeletons and tried and true zombies, or maybe some more supernatural ghostly units. But the magic side of death has been shown in those liches. And in the case if liches in general, they are just wizards that figured using a phylactery to prolong their life was the best way to gain more and more power. Not really "death personified".
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted December 09, 2014 05:26 PM |
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Protolisk said:
Most likely, kiryu133 meant that the Wraith is a pretty big showing of the personification of death already. Now, sure, we may not see things the same way, but I never saw Liches as a "personification of death", the H5 Wraiths have that on lock-down
Again, an inspiration to liches as a concept, not necessarily those in HoMM.
I know they aren't "death personified".
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 09, 2014 06:29 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Protolisk said:
Most likely, kiryu133 meant that the Wraith is a pretty big showing of the personification of death already. Now, sure, we may not see things the same way, but I never saw Liches as a "personification of death", the H5 Wraiths have that on lock-down
Again, an inspiration to liches as a concept, not necessarily those in HoMM.
I know they aren't "death personified".
I'm not quite sure what you are getting at then. Liches, as a concept, are powerful wizards back from the dead. I don't see how they fit as "personifications". Death (the name), the Grim Reaper, or Azreal, or Japanese Shinigami, they are literally death personified. I am not certain what liches mean beyond "powerful wizards" that you are trying to say they are. They aren't so much tasked with the "killing" aspect (though they certainly do) as if it's a job, or that they HAVE to, it's more of them trying to AVOID death, as far as I can see, and being evil along the way. Yes, not just HoMM, but all liches.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, it's just that you say "they are" and never why you say they are, if that makes sense. I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.
At best, perhaps MattII is saying what you mean, by the look? But then, it's just a skeleton with something in his hands. In which case, isn't just a skeleton the inspiration for the lich? Is a simple skeleton also the personification of death? It's confusing you see, and I'd just like to see a bit clearer.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted December 10, 2014 03:45 AM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 03:46, 10 Dec 2014.
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Protolisk said:
I'm not trying to be argumentative, it's just that you say "they are" and never why you say they are, if that makes sense. I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.
I actually wrote "I believe" I you'd care to go back and check.
Liches as a concept are magical skeletons, see?
Magic is supernatural. The Grim Reaper is also supernatural.
And that's that. Just a minor observation I'm not sure why people found worth quoting in the first place.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted December 10, 2014 04:05 AM |
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I don't have a defined view on what "liches" are beyond "undead wizard/necromancer that may or may not have a phylactery."
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted December 10, 2014 04:12 AM |
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I think that for lore consistency sake, they should lool akin to this
http://static.ibnlive.in.com/ibnlive/pix/sitepix/07_2011/mummy.jpg
hollow eyes, gaunt appareance, white skin. Like H6 but better done. That way they look skeleton enough so the children dont throw and tantrum and it doesnt break the lore.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 10, 2014 06:10 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 06:11, 10 Dec 2014.
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GenyaArikado said:
I think that for lore consistency sake, they should lool akin to this
http://static.ibnlive.in.com/ibnlive/pix/sitepix/07_2011/mummy.jpg
Not quite what I was thinking of, but IMO better than either skeletal or fully-alive-looking units.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted December 10, 2014 07:07 AM |
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i dont really see the complaints regarding the H6 lich when the only way to see its not a skeleton is zoom to THIS level
http://heroes6.ru/f/picture.php?albumid=49&pictureid=315
http://heroes6.ru/f/picture.php?albumid=49&pictureid=314
when in game generally at most this is what you're going to see
which looks pretty much like one
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 10, 2014 07:57 AM |
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You only see the full model on the battlefield, but 3/4 of the time you're dealing with the icon, which makes it clear it's not skeletal. Also, I think most people were protesting the overdone 'green-and-glowy' styling.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted December 11, 2014 10:19 AM |
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I protest the overdone styling in general
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted December 11, 2014 10:47 AM |
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late 2010's bring simplyfied art to us, i want that to be cleaned up. i missed the detailed unique arts, esspecially in heroes series. lich should be an undead mage who hungers for knowladge and power. it should be a really powerful unit with lots of mage-like approach.
skeletal is much better than humanoid because it really makes us feel the extereme oldness of it. an undead decayed to a point of skeletalness makes me respect it because it is a proof of survival and non-human existance.
green is symbolizing life and death, its a universal thing. green or another color, important thing is here is that we should not be indentifying creatures with color! this is simmply over simplifying identiy. we dont need this. just makeundead army with coool-unique arts and make them feel undead with some siilarities.
i really snowing hate this overdone colors.
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cliff_nest
Hired Hero
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posted December 11, 2014 11:29 AM |
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I protest also gosh it's bad in the worst way please a blue link it remind me of one ugly #$@&%*!
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e-lysander
Known Hero
Lysander
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posted December 16, 2014 04:56 AM |
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War-overlord said:
Given the current lore, Skeletal Liches is out of the question.
They gain their Lichdom by consuming Namtaru Venom, which acts effectively as an edible Embalming-agent. So a hypothetical Skeletal Lich cannot consume the Venom, is therefor not preserved and dies.
Yes, there are Sandro and Moander, but neither are Liches. Sandro became what he is by "Messing around with Void-magic", which "undid his flesh". Moander became the way he was by mixing Namtaru and Manticore Venom. So unless Liches en-masse start consuming Manticore Venom as well, or convert to Nethermancers, we'll likely get Mummy-Liches.
Well I'll be damned. There is someone who follows the uninspired, uninteresting, unwelcome Ubisoft Might & Magic lore. Hell, I've been a huge fan of the series for almost 20 years and I very, very loosely followed NWC's world.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted December 16, 2014 09:18 AM |
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I guess the entire Necropolis of the first game - on which the rest of Ubi's games are based - is not canon.
Either that or the Necs redid the definition in-universe by the time of HoMM5.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted December 16, 2014 12:09 PM |
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Of course they can make them skeletal again, it reaaaally isn't hard in a fantasy setting. Something might happen to Namtarus venom so Liches no longer keep their appearance. Or we might get Nethermancers. 
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Rakshasa92
Supreme Hero
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posted December 16, 2014 12:25 PM |
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Minion said:
Of course they can make them skeletal again, it reaaaally isn't hard in a fantasy setting. Something might happen to Namtarus venom so Liches no longer keep their appearance. Or we might get Nethermancers.
Its only extremely overused in a fantasy setting.
But it seems you like overused stuff so that won't be a problem for a minion.
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