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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 27, 2015 06:31 PM |
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Both H3 and H5 got several expansions after release, then we can also actualize them by considering the fan work, which is still bursting. The thing is that H3, thanks to WoG platform, got hundreds and hundreds of mini-expansions, call them mods or whatever. So in one way, H3 allows today to a much larger diversity and almost infinite variants. And for me this is what counts when rating the games, is their potential at the moment we talk about.
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PROJ
Known Hero
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posted June 27, 2015 06:50 PM |
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I don't see how anyone could understand strategy game design and not think homm 3 is a pretty mediocre experience. It's so fundamentally flawed (in a way mods/hacks haven't fixed) that I wouldn't even consider it worth playing beyond trying to understand where it fits in terms of strategy games historically. Homm V is almost certainly better unless all you care about is sheer volume of content.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 27, 2015 06:55 PM |
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Certainly one can express his preference for H5 or whichever, is a matter of taste. But saying Heroes III is fundamentally flawed and not worth playing shows that you are a perfect ignorant and have all to learn about.
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Era II mods and utilities
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PROJ
Known Hero
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posted June 27, 2015 07:01 PM |
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nope. watch any homm 3 match. completely, fundamentally broken
it's not even really a strategy game. it's a single player puzzle game where you fight against the AI, incidentally meet with another player, and one person has already won
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 27, 2015 07:06 PM |
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Well, there is something called strategy when battling any stack on the map, and this is what is different from player to play, then the result will match too. I would advice to play it, instead of watching.
Personally I don't have the patience to watch anybody play, any game. My ideas I get them from first hand experience. So in one way I agree with you, watching somebody else playing is boring.
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PROJ
Known Hero
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posted June 27, 2015 07:17 PM |
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beating a stack on the map is not strategy. it's puzzle-solving. There is an optimal solution that you have to find.
Strategy is having to make informed decisions which another agent can counter with his/her own informed decisions. There is almost 0 strategy in homm3. In fact, it plays much more like a roguelike than it does a strategy game.
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PROJ
Known Hero
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posted June 27, 2015 07:20 PM |
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I guess the important thing to take away here is that the crux of the problem with homm 3 is that you never really meaningfully interact with your opponent; you just play a single player game and then meet up to fight with him, but the game is almost entirely decided by that point anyways, and a large part of that is luck. The most important skills don't involve the other player. And luck is fine in games with short turnover, but homm games take HOURS to play, so really a lot of the output randomness shouldn't be in there at all to make the game more playable.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 27, 2015 07:28 PM |
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You looked to a few games, probably on recent templates. But HoMM III mutated through years, people played so much the game that naturally they tried to innovate, then created random templates, where players are separated by zones, true. So this means you just know about one tiny aspect of HoMMIII.
I played over 500 multiplayer games, on ToH maps, where players interact very early, days 3-4 then the whole game is about controlling specific areas, where dozens of scouts get killed, where there are no rules, and all tricks are allowed; because is a game and games are for fun not for preserving rankings at the cost of stripping the game.
So there is more about, don't be so sure how H3 is because you just watched a few boring games.
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PROJ
Known Hero
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posted June 27, 2015 07:51 PM |
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unfortunately, without proof, i cannot take your word very seriously
literally every high level game of homm 3 has played out as I described
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 27, 2015 08:17 PM |
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There should be a decency limit about how knowledgeable should be someone before starting such ratings. You base your whole analysis on some streamed games, which means nothing. They are not commented, therefore a genius move could slip in your eyes as a common one if you don't know the game. I am afraid we beat a dead horse here, play the game before starting argues.
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted June 27, 2015 09:02 PM |
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There is a reason why you see little full army interaction on currently played templates.
It is simple. Players can quite accurately tell which one of them is stronger, and with army they gathered for several weeks they know that if they lose significantly, they will lose the game.
So usually at least one player is avoiding contact other than scout wars or occasional magical suicide.
But it does not mean that the way games are played are not dependant on the other player. You need to know where he is, what he can do, where to go next, when to rush, and so on. And many of those things go, as Salamandre pointed out, unnoticed.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted June 27, 2015 09:02 PM |
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For someone that claims H3 is "puzzle game" has likely not even played the actual game to feel the core of the game.
Mediocre? Right, and H6 is something new and approved by fans these days.
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted June 27, 2015 09:07 PM |
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Also, if it is so luck based then how is it that some players manage to keep a win-loss record of 80-90% for several years while playing in online leagues? I guess they had some item increasing luck... Or your conjecture is wrong and you are just someone who uses confirmation bias to get a desired conclusion from watching streams. One of this two, and I don't see a lot of evidence for luck system in our world 
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icefield
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 27, 2015 09:49 PM |
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H3 is a slim and fast game, as fast as a turn-based game can get. Skills and spells have a support function. Its main strategy aspect is about controlling space and time on the map and in combat (more aspects added in fan mods, ofc).
H5 is a game with many bells and whistles. The strategy is centered around managing many types of resources, spells, skills simultaneously, and about suprising and preventing being surprised.
Although the two games derive from almost identical core mechanics, they could not be more different in reality. No wonder people continue to disagree, it's a matter of personal taste.
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PROJ
Known Hero
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posted June 29, 2015 09:18 PM |
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Kicferk said:
Also, if it is so luck based then how is it that some players manage to keep a win-loss record of 80-90% for several years while playing in online leagues? I guess they had some item increasing luck... Or your conjecture is wrong and you are just someone who uses confirmation bias to get a desired conclusion from watching streams. One of this two, and I don't see a lot of evidence for luck system in our world
I never said the game lacked skill
I said the skill was not dependent on interacting with the other opponent
I'll still await proof of there being a significant strategy element to homm3. I would like to see several examples.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 29, 2015 09:26 PM |
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Eh, you have ears but don't want to listen. Every decision one player takes on battlefield is strategy. Choice about attacking this instead or that, building this dwelling instead of another, recruiting this hero instead of another.
All this is strategy. Any decision tied to a global plan in order to achieve a goal, is called strategy.
Don't know why you insist calling it else. This was in Heroes 2, Heroes 3 is following same exact path.
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Aionb
Known Hero
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posted June 29, 2015 09:31 PM |
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PROJ said:
I'll still await proof of there being a significant strategy element to homm3. I would like to see several examples.
Play the game for several years and you might see the proof in your own hands. Other than that, no one has to prove anything, but we can all feel amused. Good luck watching those streams.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 29, 2015 09:49 PM |
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Maybe PROJ simply cannot handle the randomness.
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PROJ
Known Hero
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posted June 29, 2015 10:03 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Eh, you have ears but don't want to listen. Every decision one player takes on battlefield is strategy. Choice about attacking this instead or that, building this dwelling instead of another, recruiting this hero instead of another.
All this is strategy. Any decision tied to a global plan in order to achieve a goal, is called strategy.
Don't know why you insist calling it else. This was in Heroes 2, Heroes 3 is following same exact path.
every decision is certainly not 'strategy.' If you're just crunching numbers for optimal decision moves, that's not strategy, it's math. There's a huge difference between the two
i'm not sure what the apprehension is of providing evidence. If homm 3 is as great as you guys say, the evidence should be abundant
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 29, 2015 10:08 PM |
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What more evidence do you need than a game which is still being played and modded to death even now at professional level with hota 15 years after its release?
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