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| Thread: Putin's n1 opposition gunned down in the streets. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 04, 2015 08:54 PM |
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I'm not saying that Russia or Putin and his team are angels, but there seems to be a strong trend in the Western media to discredit and demonize them. Putin is being painted by the media to be a dictator of an oppressive regime, the threat to the world, etc.
And yet, which country has done the most invasions in the last few decades, and what does the media say about this country being a threat to the world? Which country is still under a "communist" dictatorship with state-censored internet, and what does the media say about its oppressiveness?
It is obvious that some countries and their leaders have serious shortcomings that are almost completely overlooked by the mainstream Western media, while every possible shortcoming by other selected countries is instantly broadcast even before there are facts to prove it.
From this it is clear to me that the mainstream Western media's primary agenda is not to report the facts, but to paint a specific geopolitical picture. In other words there already seems to be a decision on who will be presented as the good guys and who will be presented as the bad guys, and the facts and opinions that are presented serve this purpose.
Coming back to the subject, I think the matter seems very unclear. I can see that it would be an impressive show of oppression to conduct a murder like this. And I also think that murdering the opposition leader like this would be one of the best ways to help the West discredit Putin.
As for the investigation, I think we need to have expectations that apply to all countries here. For example, does US invite international experts to join its internal investigations?
Like others say, I'm not sure we'll ever know the real answer. Overall, this makes me more suspicious of both sides.
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You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 04, 2015 09:10 PM |
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Valeriy said:
It is obvious that some countries and their leaders have serious shortcomings that are almost completely overlooked by the mainstream Western media, while every possible shortcoming by other selected countries is instantly broadcast even before there are facts to prove it.
From this it is clear to me that the mainstream Western media's primary agenda is not to report the facts, but to paint a specific geopolitical picture. In other words there already seems to be a decision on who will be presented as the good guys and who will be presented as the bad guys, and the facts and opinions that are presented serve this purpose.
i keep seeing the phrase "western media" here at HC, as if it is any different from any other media. the opposition of anyone, will discredit their foes however or whenever they can, as it is an opportunity to strengthen their own views. that's been going on for centuries. i think if you look back throughout history, you'll see that every source of media has been used to sway and even control the masses for the betterment of whoever rules over them. people think that the printed/vocalized word is an infallible thing, and meant to inform people. STILL. after ENDLESS displays otherwise.
what i think, is that people like being fooled. they like not knowing. they would prefer a fairy-tale existence, where whoever watches over them does so benignly; like a decent parent or something. it's ridiculous.
but i understand what's at stake, so i can't really blame them. reality is just around the corner, everywhere. people can keep playing games, but reality will show it's face in the end; if only when they die.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted March 04, 2015 09:15 PM |
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Zenofex said:
One of the latest news is that the Russian government considers some sort of Patriotic Act to protect the "sovereignty" of the country from external interventions, using the assassination of Nemtsov as one of the arguments in favour of such a thing.
The department of Russian homeland security. It makes sense. And I'm not surprised one bit.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 04, 2015 09:23 PM |
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Kayna said:
The department of Russian homeland security. It makes sense. And I'm not surprised one bit.
the states already did it. i wonder which other countries have something similar. i think it'll only be a matter of time.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 04, 2015 09:28 PM |
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fred, the difference is that in the West many people seem to think that their media is more... liberal, or ethical, or objective, or pick-something-cool as opposed to the "traditional" non-democracies like Russia or China while the level of manipulation and spread of disinformation is fairly similar on both ends in times of tension like now. Check this topic for instance - people are convinced that Putin is guilty of murder by default because he's like that, you know - murderous autocrat. Where do you think they got this idea from, personal talks with him, common acquaintances? Frankly, throughout the years I've been getting the impression that people living in flawed pseudo-democracies and non-democracies have a better understanding how full of **** can the media be than people in the "free countries". Some manifestation of the Cold War winner syndrome I suppose.
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted March 04, 2015 09:32 PM |
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In general it's a good idea to take ANY news media with a grain of salt and a dose of critical thinking.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 04, 2015 10:19 PM |
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Yeah, this media approach is not exclusive to mainstream Western media (MWM). But like Zen says, MWM has been very successful - it broadcasts in a good number of countries and I think still manages to fool the masses.
I'm Russian-born but have been living in New Zealand for many years. NZ is very far away and is a very small country, and it is interesting to see how much it is still affected by geopolitics. For instance, we pretty much have MWM here. NZ is also the part of 5-eyes alliance with US, UK, CA and AU. The current govt is very pro-American and NZ is already sending troops to Iraq, despite strong if not majority opposition in NZ parliament. There's even talk of introducing anti-terrorist legislation like the patriot act here in NZ!
It is an interesting question, Fred, about whether people want to be fooled. I wondered about this a lot. Once I started looking, the amount of difficult truth out there is quite painful to comprehend. It's like once you start looking there seems to be no end to it. And the whole impression of the human society flips upside down.
It is probably a form of naive comfort-seeking behaviour. I think that most people deep down feel that something is not right in a big way. But is is more comfortable to push this idea away by invalidating the as yet minority of people who talk about things not being OK. It is also easier to delegate thinking about difficult subjects to people of authority and blame them for any bad consequences. It is not easy to start thinking about what impacts our own everyday choices and actions have in the big picture and in the long term.
Anyway, would be curious to hear what others think about whether or why people avoid uncomfortable truths that are likely to bite them or their children in the ass later.
____________
You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 04, 2015 11:45 PM |
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Valeriy said:
It is not easy to start thinking about what impacts our own everyday choices and actions have in the big picture and in the long term.
it is easy, i just don't think people allow themselves the time to consider anything outside their own realm of "reality". they are told by nearly every source, that humanity itself is a great achievement, the pinnacle of evolution even; and that everything should bow before us(it says so in the bible, lol). they are taught since childhood, that "authority" figures have everything under control, and that they should be trusted. parenting is where it begins, and that is why parenting is so very crucial. any decent individual can keep a kid alive until they reach adulthood. but trying break the mold, to teach the child outside how society trains humans, is a much greater feat. because sooner or later, they have to join with it. therein lies the problem. how can anyone teach outside an idea that holds up the foundation of society, as people know it? belief is, after all, what keeps society going. just like religion keeps hope alive for people who fear that their short time on earth will be all they ever get.
i think deep down, people are all just afraid of the unknown, and stick to this petty, disposable existence of theirs because it is familiar, and is all they care to know. not everybody, though. some people actually consider the impact they make, and make changes within their own lives for the betterment of the world around them; think about what they've always been trained to think(including what they're still being trained); and wish for something different.
but anyway, this is off-topic. i don't mean to derail the thread.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted March 05, 2015 01:48 AM |
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Zenofex said:
fred, the difference is that in the West many people seem to think that their media is more... liberal, or ethical, or objective, or pick-something-cool as opposed to the "traditional" non-democracies like Russia or China while the level of manipulation and spread of disinformation is fairly similar on both ends in times of tension like now. Check this topic for instance - people are convinced that Putin is guilty of murder by default because he's like that, you know - murderous autocrat. Where do you think they got this idea from, personal talks with him, common acquaintances? Frankly, throughout the years I've been getting the impression that people living in flawed pseudo-democracies and non-democracies have a better understanding how full of **** can the media be than people in the "free countries". Some manifestation of the Cold War winner syndrome I suppose.
Western media is more ethical and objective. It's not a whole lot different than the police. Anybody that knows anything would much rather deal with Western police over police most elsewhere, where bribery and corruption are much more common.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted March 05, 2015 02:45 AM |
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I pretty much stopped following most political news this year when they said it out loud that pretty much Russia's gonna attack Lithuania on a short notice and brought back forced draft into army in spite of your social/work status. It pretty much echoes how retarded I think politicians are on the whole and only shows that media will do anything in its power to incite panic and disarray. In this modern world where terrorism should be the primary cause of panic remnants of the past show up in bigger ways than it should which only shows that most people simply haven't learnt.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 05, 2015 02:59 AM |
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The way I see it, media is kind of free to go for drama over fact to increase sales as they see fit. Especially when it comes to "non-news", or if they have some arbitrary source.
Maximizing sales means you stay in business while the competitors that try to take the high road might find themselves bankrupt..
In regards to the police force, my main concern is not the police force that any single officer represent, but how the officer is as a person. Sometimes you're really unfortunate to meet someone who's biased towards you for reasons you don't realize before it's too late, and you're in for a really rough and unpleasant time no matter how compliant you try to be.
I think the main issue is that it doesn't matter if you want to be a journalist to enrich people's knowledge about important stuff we'd otherwise miss, or simply to try to make ends meet by pasting the most intense and extreme stuff you can find on the net, like it doesn't matter if you want to be a police officer to serve and protect people or you want to be one to dominate others.
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Living time backwards
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 05, 2015 03:33 AM |
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statistically speaking, sociopaths seek out positions of authority. 
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted March 05, 2015 03:58 AM |
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blizzardboy said:
Western media is more ethical and objective.
Hmmm....
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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orzie 
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 05, 2015 05:18 AM |
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted March 05, 2015 08:04 AM |
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blizzardboy said:
Western media is more ethical and objective. It's not a whole lot different than the police. Anybody that knows anything would much rather deal with Western police over police most elsewhere, where bribery and corruption are much more common.
Heh. I believe your comparison is invalid, because there are many factors. The most imporant one I believe is wealth. If we compare cops from all wealthy countries, would the US really rank no 1 ? I highly doubt it!
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 05, 2015 08:16 AM |
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I'm more interested where does blizz take his information on media and police in other countries from. The news or first hand experience? 
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted March 05, 2015 03:36 PM |
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He clearly isn't black. lol.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 05, 2015 11:19 PM |
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Edited by artu at 00:30, 06 Mar 2015.
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@fred
Rejecting any mainstream explanation categorically is not much different than accepting any mainstream explanation. What matters is the credibility of the explanation itself. For example, I too, never thought the Weapons of Mass Destruction excuse about Iraq was a mistake, even before US officially admitted that it was. That was pretty obvious especially after Saddam called in the UN investigators and told them it was okay for them to check under every rock and Bush administration said that wouldnt change a thing. It was a classical example of La Fontaine's The Wolf and The Lamb
9/11 conspirecies, on the other hand, dont make any sense. They are full of logical loopholes, inconsistencies, fake data and disinformation. Not to mention if our only parameter was who had profit in the end, we would have to conclude that Europeans were responsible for the Mongol raids of the Middle-East, not Gengis Khan, since they flourished the most when he weakened them. (Who knows, maybe someday historians will write that in the end, all of this caused China to profit and get ahead eventually.)
Just because most people prefer to be comfortable instead of truly informed and replace thinking with wishful thinking, doesnt mean every mainstream explanation is about that. Sometimes, things are just really what they look like.
@Kanya
If you expect to change the system from scratch or radically change some long-term state policy simply by voting, no, you cant. But that doesnt mean all voting, the concept of voting is all in vain or that it's just a farce. First of all, it makes you matter to the politicians even if they want to just decieve you, because it is still you they have to convince to get in power. Second of all, it results in people at least following local matters like tax rates, welfare, education, police behavior more closely. Even you trashing the regime so casually and comfortably has a lot to do with you coming from a culture that had been voting for a long time. I sometimes find Westerners too spoiled about their rights and advantages, completely disregarding the pros of freedom of speech or a mature democracy. Yes, your systems are not flawless and they are sometimes hypocrite but when you examine them in comparison to the rest of the systems of the world, they are still very preferable.
@Blizz
You are not completely wrong there. Not that in the sense Western media isnt biased at times but even when they are they usually have higher standards still. And the pressure they face is never as brutal as... well, if you read my recent link here, you'll see
...because in 1996, when Chubais summoned a meeting of top Russian newspaper editors to the Kremlin, he told the uppity editor of the then-independent Izvestiya newspaper, “You will write what we tell you to write or bones will crack”; a few months later, after Izvestiya broke the story on Chubais taking a $3 million interest-free loan from a banker who rigged an auction, that editor was out on the streets, and today Izvestiya is a wholly owned propaganda organ of the FSB.
I dont picture the White House talking like that to the New York Times. Yet, there is still pressure by finance and lobbying. But that doesnt eliminate idealist journalists and independent press organs the way sheer opression does. Also, the West has a much older tradition of journalism which results in a work ethic that gets you resigned/fired if you screw up big. So Western people having the impression that their media is more liberal or ethical is not a complete delusion. You should be educated (not necessarily schooled) and lucid enough to pick the right sources though and most people dont do that, they watch Bill O Reilly, "the Culture Warrior." So, it's not the masses that benefit from the advantages but the skeptical minority. It's not complete propaganda over here either but the standards are lower.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted March 06, 2015 12:03 AM |
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The point being: Western media obviously suffers from the universal problem of having cultural bias. They are going to have a certain predisposed mindset that is going to bleed over into journalism.
Most elsewhere in the world, you still have cultural bias, but this is also compounded with less historical experience in investigative journalism and/or a higher probability of pressure from government or non-government factions, even to the point of fearing to report certain things. Is this gap closing? The evidence seems to be: yes, it is, but you still have higher standards and less risks in 1st world countries than elsewhere. I don't see why people find that so hard to believe.
Editorial news is editorial news. It's not state propaganda to allow different ideological platforms to be promoted by different people in the journalist professions. People are allowed to promote viewpoints. Don't blame "the Western media" (whatever that's even suppose to mean). "The Western media" is just the sum of millions of people that are employed in the news business. Does the "Western media" in editorials overall have a hostile opinion towards Russia's recent policy? Absolutely. But that's formed out of people's authentic, genuine, truthful opinion and analysis. So.... what is there to complain about? Being unbiased doesn't mean you have to take a neutral stance over everything. It's even possible for taking a neutral stance to be a direct result of displaying bias. It just means you do everything within your power to be as objective as possible in your judgements.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 06, 2015 12:19 AM |
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Edited by artu at 00:25, 06 Mar 2015.
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But when it comes to most of the news linked here in HC about Russia, the problem isnt that they arent neutral, it is that they are full of nit-picked half-truths and exaggerration.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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