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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Flanking system and hexagons.
Thread: Flanking system and hexagons. This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
donatazz
donatazz


Adventuring Hero
posted May 11, 2015 10:15 PM

Poll Question:
Flanking system and hexagons.

I've noticed that the game will have square layout as previously, but since the flanking system being introduced in this game, would it not be better to work with hexagons? What are your though on the matter, id love to hear them!

Responses:
Yes it would!
No,thats terrible idea.
I have no strong feelings on way or the other
 View Results!

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 11, 2015 10:22 PM

Even without flanking I favor hexes.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 11, 2015 10:26 PM
Edited by Stevie at 22:27, 11 May 2015.

The hexagons question would take priority regardless of flanking or not. I don't know why you mixed them together.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 11, 2015 10:27 PM

@Stevie

Probably because of HO.
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donatazz
donatazz


Adventuring Hero
posted May 11, 2015 10:28 PM

Stevie said:
The hexagons question would take priority regardless of flanking or not. I don't know why you mixed them together.


because in this game they would go together nicely, if there were no flanking I would still ask the same question

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted May 11, 2015 10:34 PM

I like hexagons and flanking, depending on how it's implemented.

Here, if you bother to read, there are my impressions on that matter, and some other stuff. I still need to get back at that thread to make some simulations.
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Science isn't about WHY. It's about WHY NOT.

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donatazz
donatazz


Adventuring Hero
posted May 11, 2015 10:37 PM

PandaTar said:
I like hexagons and flanking, depending on how it's implemented.

Here, if you bother to read, there are my impressions on that matter, and some other stuff. I still need to get back at that thread to make some simulations.


nice topic, im sorry I have missed it

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Simpelicity
Simpelicity


Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
posted May 11, 2015 11:53 PM

I just hope they allow you to choose your creature's orientation after it has done both it's move and it's action (if it does anything). Like FF tactics for instance. They didn't do that in their free online game.


Why would hexagons be better btw? There are 4 orientations (front, back, 2 sides), how is dividing it in 6 better than dividing it in 4?
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cleglaw
cleglaw


Famous Hero
posted May 12, 2015 01:44 AM
Edited by cleglaw at 01:48, 12 May 2015.

with hexagons we have 6 sides for standart creature, 3 of them as flankabe, so it would be easier to flank. also thinking the hexagons advenced movement offer=cross moves, it would be even more easier.

flanking is already a powerful effect, making it happen easier is a really bad idea.

i love hexagons, i prefer them over squares, but when flanking comes in formula, i prefer to stay in squares.

so i picked "bad idea" option in your vote.

@pandatar

thanks for the link, i ll read and comment on it when i ll have some spare time.

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donatazz
donatazz


Adventuring Hero
posted May 12, 2015 02:16 AM

cleglaw said:
with hexagons we have 6 sides for standart creature, 3 of them as flankabe, so it would be easier to flank. also thinking the hexagons advenced movement offer=cross moves, it would be even more easier.

flanking is already a powerful effect, making it happen easier is a really bad idea.

i love hexagons, i prefer them over squares, but when flanking comes in formula, i prefer to stay in squares.

so i picked "bad idea" option in your vote.

@pandatar

thanks for the link, i ll read and comment on it when i ll have some spare time.


it is easy because they made it easy, 75% 100% bonus? When the first time I saw it I though WTF, if it was like 10-15-20max flanking from so many different sides would be a lot more interesting, right not not so much

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Simpelicity
Simpelicity


Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
posted May 12, 2015 07:04 AM

cleglaw said:
with hexagons we have 6 sides for standart creature, 3 of them as flankabe, so it would be easier to flank. also thinking the hexagons advenced movement offer=cross moves, it would be even more easier.

flanking is already a powerful effect, making it happen easier is a really bad idea.

i love hexagons, i prefer them over squares, but when flanking comes in formula, i prefer to stay in squares.

so i picked "bad idea" option in your vote.

@pandatar

thanks for the link, i ll read and comment on it when i ll have some spare time.


You've got your argument backwards. 3 out of 6 is 50% flank, 3 out of 4 is 75%. Square is easier to flank.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted May 12, 2015 09:03 AM
Edited by Maurice at 09:07, 12 May 2015.

Why would squares be better for flanking? Depending on the orientation of the target of the flank, you can have two different situations. One where the target is aligned with respect to the square's sides and one where it's aligned with the diagonal axis of the square. In the case of squares, you always have 8 angles of attack: 3 from behind, 3 from the front and 2 from either side. The ratio of flank vs. non-flank is 5 vs. 3 there.

In the case of hexagons, the orientation within the hex is relatively always the same. You have 6 angles of attack there, 3 from the front and 3 from behind. The flank vs. non-flank ratio is 3 vs. 3 there. Besides, I've always considered attacks through the corners of a square awkward; especially positioning of small and large creatures around another unit is ambiguous when using squares. You don't have that issue with hexagons.

I've been playing Age of Wonders 3 lately and that game also features both hexagons and flanking. I more or less like that system, as you can even change your units' facing provided it still has an action point at least. However, a flank attack will cause the defender to turn and face the attacker - which promptly opens its flanks to another attacker on the other side. I'd wish for it that you could choose to have a unit ignore flank attacks by certain enemy units. Flank attacks cause extra damage, but it sucks when an enemy unit just tickles one of your units, causing it to turn to face it, opening it up for a devastating flank attack by another enemy unit which it was originally facing.

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NamelessOrder
NamelessOrder


Famous Hero
posted May 12, 2015 11:05 AM
Edited by NamelessOrder at 15:16, 12 May 2015.

In their article Why we chose hexes, heroes online devs explained that they chose hexes partly because of flanking. I think the text is worth reading simply because it is relevant to the OP question. I find the pictures of movement in the square system misleading however. Moving diagonally costs you more than moving to the square's side (1,5 more, 1,41 to be precise).

To answer the OP question: i think that flanking might work slightly better with hexes but the difference wouldn't be that significant to me  (even though HO devs disagree and they know more on the subject).

To visualize the square flanking i made this image:



* i don't know if the upper-left and right tile will give you flanking or backstabbing bonus.

the hex vs square discussion is a whole another subject but i'd like to hear from someone who started playing TBS w/o previous hex grid experience, like sb who started playing H5 or H6 and then tried Heroes 3 HD.


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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted May 12, 2015 04:22 PM
Edited by PandaTar at 16:29, 12 May 2015.

This is how I was envisioning flanking for Hexagon tiles:

The image.

Mainly due many qualities units, overally speaking, could present when it comes to their vision. I believe, if the mechanics could bother to consider it, that different units could be effected differently by flanking. For example, hydras couldn't be flanked due their great range of vision. Unicorns-type, which I would consider their vision as the same of horses, would only be affected by back-actions, but never be flanked.

Of course, with many fantasy units, some of these procedures would have to be invented as well. So, to balance it out, I think that layout could be fairer. Dunno.

Many issues are always a matter of personal perspective.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted May 12, 2015 04:29 PM

Panda, you're forgetting the four corner attack possibilities, as posted by NamelessOrder in the post directly preceding yours. How would you classify those then?

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted May 12, 2015 04:30 PM

Oh, that was because the schematic thing was regarding the base game I was discussing in the other topic, Final Fantasy Tactics, which doesn't have diagonal interactions. So, I apologize.
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Science isn't about WHY. It's about WHY NOT.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted May 12, 2015 06:00 PM
Edited by Maurice at 18:01, 12 May 2015.

Lol, no need to apologize . Just curious on your opinion with regards to attacks over a diagonal / corner, though if I read you correctly, you're a fan of hexagons as well for games like these.

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted May 12, 2015 07:24 PM

My opinion is similar to that above in the image, 3 instances for both frontal and back actions and 2 for flanking, when regarding square interactions. That's why I would prefer hexagons over that when it comes to flanking. I feel like back attacks are too predominant on a square-tile basis. It's like the peripheral vision is somehow ignored there. But that's just my humble opinion. ^^

It also could work implementing penalty over defense as the attack comes further away from the frontal vision. E.g.:
   - Frontal: 0 penalty
   - Flanking frontal: 5% penalty
   - Flanking back: 10% penalty
   - Back: 20% penalty + chance for critical




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the_green_drag
the_green_drag


Supreme Hero
posted May 12, 2015 10:28 PM
Edited by the_green_drag at 22:29, 12 May 2015.

I like the flanking in h7 to be honest, it gives some more to think about in battles. I like how they implemented it too. You  kind of have to look at the feet of the unit to see which direction it's facing. Sometimes it's facing diagonally since you can hit corner to corner so the backstabbing and flanking spacings shift.

It brings some extra strategy for might heroes especially. This is the kind of improvements I like for them rather than warcries

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted May 12, 2015 11:20 PM

Can the player define which direction a unit is facing after moving, or it'll be facing the direction it's walking? If it's the latter, it'll be a bit broken. Retreating with your back at your enemy, or not being able to set your back turned to an obstacle to avoid backstabbing.
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Science isn't about WHY. It's about WHY NOT.

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