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| Thread: Ditch Ashan? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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kiryu133
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Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted August 17, 2015 02:13 PM |
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Heroes of might and magic and Might and magic are two different series: Heroes is a fantasy where some things (which isn't important) are explained through Sci-fi/high tech stuff and M&M is an RPG with heavy High-tech theme. They both take place in the same world but have vastly different directions. Kreegans are alien invaders. It's not important that they are or even a big deal in Heroes but the might and magic RPG series does much more with it. It was a cool thing but not important unless you played the RPG.
If there was High-tech stuff in Ashan we would get that snow shoved down our throats at every possible moment like we are with those goddamn Dark elves. That's the difference.
what Verriker said as well, lol.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 17, 2015 08:27 PM |
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Rakshasa92 said:
Really? Some people want to keep the Dragon Gods?
They are so bad and limited, its not even fun anymore.
The Dragon Gods are what's bugging Ashan the most.
That is ... sort of an empty statement. I would like to discuss this, if you would actually be specific about what's bad about it?
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Rakshasa92
Supreme Hero
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posted August 17, 2015 08:41 PM |
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The Dragons waste the possibilities of certain towns (like the lizard town, or a snow town, or another town that isn't about the Elemental Little Pony Gods.)
With these dragon gods you always have to be loyal to the same towns as if not the dragon gods don't have followers anymore, of course you can leave towns out of the game, but adding towns that aren't about a dragon is something that didn't happen before and I think that won't happen.
Said in short, the dragon gods make for repeative units and towns, and creativity isn't possible with those dragon gods around
It is also very easy thinking, people love gods and people love dragons (I'm no exception, but I actually hate the American D&D, Rainbow Dragon models, I like my dragons special such as the insectoid Pyrausta and the spiny Peluda) so it is easy to please those with Dragon Gods.
It's also basic and boring, lets take the elementals (AGAIN), some ugly childish dragons and turn those into gods, removing the possibility to ever be creative and think past those same repeative units and towns.
Of course we need at least a couple of towns back from the past, but at least one new town in each game that hasn't been done to death (no i'm not a fan of Scifi-Fantasy, so no Forge or anything with childish Lasers and Robots which I hate) and which feels fresh.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 17, 2015 08:54 PM |
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Rakshasa92 said:
The Dragons waste the possibilities of certain towns (like the lizard town, or a snow town, or another town that isn't about the Elemental Little Pony Gods.)
I disagree with this, there is imo. no problem with introducing new towns that are not alleged to the dragon gods. In fact, Stronghold is one such town with no dragon alliance, Academy is another I think. I know Erwan is very locked on the current nine factions, but that is exactly the mentality I would like to go away from: Instead of being bound by the lore, one should do what's better for the game. There are plenty of ways to fit a Lizard town into the current world in my opinion, so I see no problem in keeping the dragon gods and introducing a Lizard town at the same time.
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kiryu133
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Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted August 17, 2015 09:00 PM |
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except every new town would just be stronghold without orcs .
le sigh
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted August 17, 2015 09:11 PM |
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I think a major problem with Ashan is the same one Erwin misguidedly cited about Enroth, "there was just so much information in the world that it was difficult for new players to really embrace everything that was there. The mass of backstory and continuity was almost intimidating, and we wanted to create a world that new players could enjoy as well" lol
by now, Ashan has built up so much of this impactful garbage lore which only like two or three people on Earth care about that I think it would be very difficult to fix all its problems as you describe without creating a massive series of headaches and contradictions lol
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted August 17, 2015 09:20 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 21:33, 17 Aug 2015.
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verriker said:
I think it would be very difficult to fix all its problems as you describe without creating a massive series of headaches and contradictions lol
Isn't that what is happening right now?
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verriker
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We don't need another 'eroes
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posted August 17, 2015 09:24 PM |
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Gryphs said:
Isn't that what is happening right now.
no, right now they're making all its problems even worse while creating a massive series of headaches and contradictions lol
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alcibiades
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Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 17, 2015 10:19 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
except every new town would just be stronghold without orcs.
You mean, because the only way to introduce a new race is by having it come from Wizard experiments?
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted August 17, 2015 10:31 PM |
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yup
stupid Ashan corner-writing
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted August 18, 2015 10:50 AM |
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Edited by Avonu at 10:54, 18 Aug 2015.
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Oh c'mon... it's not Ashan problem, it's a problem with being tied to Thallan and using lore excuses instead of using imagination.
But beside Thallan there are other undiscovered (or forgotten) lands:
- Far East... and even steppes of Ranaar were not fully shown to us - only a small part near Holy Griffin Empire border
- Shrouded South which seems to be another desert... but do you wonder, what lies beyond that (like our ancestors wondered what lied beyond Sahara?)
- North (and South) Pole
- lands beyond Irisus Sea on the West.
We even don't know what can lie on the bottom of that sea (Nagas' Lotus Empire seems to be located at and below Jade Ocean)... or in Abyss below Ygg-Chall... or what constantly changes Dwarves tunnels beyond Grimheim (even Dwarves wonders, why their tunnels have new corridors - and they have perfect 3D sense of direction).
Instead of focusing of this kind of mysteries we constantly get another Demons vs Ashan or Game of Thrones wanna-be stories.
We know that Asha created 6 Elder Races for her Elemental Dragon Gods and Urgash created Demons... but that is what people of Thallan belive. What if they don't know all true? What if Dragon Gods created others species... or there are things that still live since times before Elder Races creation or before time itself? What if Order of the Void is not the first organisation to use Void? What if House of Chimera are not creators of Beastmen - what if they enslaved them from unknown lans and lied to rest of Thallan and other Wizards?
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted August 18, 2015 12:14 PM |
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Wasn't it somehow insinuated in MMX that void magic was somehow involved in the fall of the shantiri empire?
Imo the main problem with Ashan is that the new games are set before Heroes V. This means there is need for a certain continuity, meaning no new factions can be introduced and the established factions cannot change too much. If the next Heroes would just discover the events post Dark Messiah, I believe that even Thallan could be interesting again. Factions can split or merge, new factions can be introduced or new technologies/magic can completely change the shape of a faction.
However, I think it is the meddling with the game mechanics, not the over-abundant lore, that threatens the series. Therefore I doubly agree with those who vote to keep Ashan. I think Ashan still has a lot of potential and I think it would be a waste to spent money on developing a new setting that could also be spent on game mechanics and content.
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verriker
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We don't need another 'eroes
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posted August 18, 2015 02:34 PM |
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Avonu said:
We know that Asha created 6 Elder Races for her Elemental Dragon Gods and Urgash created Demons... but that is what people of Thallan belive. What if they don't know all true? What if Dragon Gods created others species... or there are things that still live since times before Elder Races creation or before time itself? What if Order of the Void is not the first organisation to use Void? What if House of Chimera are not creators of Beastmen - what if they enslaved them from unknown lans and lied to rest of Thallan and other Wizards?
then my first question would be why did nobody from the Holy Le Brettonian Empire ever get on a boat or use their wings to go over to these "what if" places in like 3000+ years and bring back a couple of specimens or at least mention them, also a third retcon of the beastmen would not help anyone trying to take the timeline seriously lol
Steyn said:
I think Ashan still has a lot of potential and I think it would be a waste to spent money on developing a new setting that could also be spent on game mechanics and content.
the universe of Twilight by Stephanie Meyer has incredible potential and could tell great stories, that doesn't mean it will ever be worth wasting energy on by trying though lol
also I'm not sure what the logic is that it would cost any more money to develop a new setting than it would to fund a salvage operation to fix Ashan, I know Ubisoft love to reuse every single asset they possibly can but honestly a new world would probably be easier lol,
all it would actually require in terms of production is to create a new fanfiction backstory/myth of creation, and a new map, people at the HC Altar of Wishes have generated better examples of those than Erwin's for free in ten minutes lol
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Avonu
Responsible
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Embracing light and darkness
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posted August 18, 2015 08:03 PM |
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Edited by Avonu at 20:11, 18 Aug 2015.
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verriker said:
Then my first question would be: Why did nobody from the Holy Le Brettonian Empire ever get on a boat or use their wings to go over to these "what if" places in like 3000+ years and bring back a couple of specimens or at least mention them? Also a third retcon of the beastmen would not help anyone trying to take the timeline seriously.
Lol 
Belive me or not, but this was the first question which I asked myself. And there always was one factor which caused much of headache, when I tried to find reasonable explanation: Dragon Gods.
You can't say that some faction/creatures were unknown because... Asha uses all Dragon Gods know everything and their children (at least Angels and Faceless and maybe Eternal Empress of Naga) should know about these distant creatures and/or factions. The simplest solution would be erase Dragon Gods ... but as it's Ashan, we are cursed to have them. 
Anyway, the answer to your question is... Dragon Gods.
Long story short - they forbid their children to go there because... OK, I can't find any not silly reason... at least not without making more questions.
That not mean there weren't expeditions... but these who went there never came back... a few who came back anyway, died few days later because of "Dragon Gods curse" (not really  )... but these are another stories, which maybe I someday will write (Hey, if Erwan can have his fanfiction, why I shouldn't have? )
My conclusion: if you eliminate Dragon Gods as active players in Ashan lore (so they are just myths and religion but nothing more and especially not: "kill Laszlo", "make Wulfstan a king", "Elrath is Light magic", etc.) then your stories can be much better without all these restrictions.
Scrapping Ashan won't help much, if new/old worlds would have same restrictions as Ashan. We would just replace one crapsack world with another.
I don't like Ashan (even if I know much about it and even if it could be salvageable) and I would prefer setting of NWC uniwerse but hey, why should Ubisoft ruin another worlds, when they have Ashan?
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verriker
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posted August 18, 2015 09:03 PM |
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Avonu said:
Believe it or not, but this was the first question which I asked, myself. And there was always one factor which caused plenty of headaches when I tried to find a reasonable explanation: the Dragon Gods.
You can't say that some factions/creatures were unknown because... Asha uses all the Dragon Gods know everything, and their children (at least the Angels and Faceless, and maybe the Eternal Empress of the Naga) should know about these distant creatures and/or factions. The simplest solution would be to erase the Dragon Gods ... but as it's Ashan, we are cursed to have them.
Anyway, the answer to your question is... Dragon Gods.
Long story short - they forbid their children from going there because... OK, I can't find any non-silly reason... at least not without raising more questions.
That does not mean there weren't expeditions... but those who went there never came back... or those who came back died a few days later because of "the Dragon Gods' curse" (not really )... but these are other stories, which I may write someday (Hey, if Erwin can have his fanfiction, why shouldn't I? )
My conclusion: if you eliminate the Dragon Gods as active players in Ashan lore (so they are just myths and religion but nothing more and especially not: "kill Laszlo", "make Wulfstan a king", "Elrath is Light magic", etc.) then your stories can be much better without all these restrictions.
Scrapping Ashan won't help much, if new/old worlds would have the same restrictions as Ashan. We would just replace one crapsack world with another.
I don't like Ashan (even though I know much about it and even if it could be salvageable) and I would prefer setting of NWC universe, but hey, why should Ubisoft ruin other worlds, when they have Ashan?
cheers for a betterer grammer lesson, have one free of charge from me in return lol
for me the primary problem to deal with is Erwin, or Erwin's mentality anyway, which is the original source of all these dumb restrictions anyway, so yeah as long as he remains I am happy to have his crap contained in rotten old Ashan lol
in the ideal instance that there a new, better creative director appears before long however, I think it's completely reasonable to expect that they create a world of their own, whether to respect/contain Erwin's bad ideas or to simply be able to reflect their own sensibilities,
after all even though we know the truth is he was just not bothered to even look into continuing the NWC legacy, respect for the past and freedom for the future was the excuse Erwin gave all along for burning Axeoth in flames lol
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted August 19, 2015 06:49 AM |
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verriker said:
cheers for a betterer grammer lesson, have one free of charge from me in return lol
Thanks a lot.
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"Details are everything."
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 19, 2015 12:07 PM |
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Play nicely, people ...
Avonu said:
Oh c'mon... it's not Ashan problem, it's a problem with being tied to Thallan and using lore excuses instead of using imagination.
But beside Thallan there are other undiscovered (or forgotten) lands:
- Far East... and even steppes of Ranaar were not fully shown to us - only a small part near Holy Griffin Empire border
- Shrouded South which seems to be another desert... but do you wonder, what lies beyond that (like our ancestors wondered what lied beyond Sahara?)
- North (and South) Pole
- lands beyond Irisus Sea on the West.
We even don't know what can lie on the bottom of that sea (Nagas' Lotus Empire seems to be located at and below Jade Ocean)... or in Abyss below Ygg-Chall... or what constantly changes Dwarves tunnels beyond Grimheim (even Dwarves wonders, why their tunnels have new corridors - and they have perfect 3D sense of direction).
Instead of focusing of this kind of mysteries we constantly get another Demons vs Ashan or Game of Thrones wanna-be stories.
We know that Asha created 6 Elder Races for her Elemental Dragon Gods and Urgash created Demons... but that is what people of Thallan belive. What if they don't know all true? What if Dragon Gods created others species... or there are things that still live since times before Elder Races creation or before time itself? What if Order of the Void is not the first organisation to use Void? What if House of Chimera are not creators of Beastmen - what if they enslaved them from unknown lans and lied to rest of Thallan and other Wizards?
I think this is a very good summary of how there is plenty of room to fit more into Ashan if one should want it. The question why they didn't cross the ocean is not necessarily such a problem, after all why didn't people cross the Atlantic on a regular basis before the 1500's? Mostly because they didn't believe there was anything out there within reach of the boats they had available (which in fact was the case).
But personally, I think there's plenty of room to fit in new factions on the continent of Thallan. Looking back at the old Heroes 5 map, one could ask: Who inhabits the city of Karthal, located on the coast west of the Griffin Empire? Who are the sailors living on the Twilight Archipelagio west of Irollan? Who lives in the mountain town of Stormhelm - is that the people of the Free Cities of the east? And who inhabits the pyramid-like structure east of Ranaar? And are anybody hiding in the swamps on the coast above the islands in the Jade Ocean?
Remember that all this was ones suggested in the actual game material. I know Erwan has done a lot to retcon about half of what was official back at the time of H5, but instead of going with that, why not retcon H6 and H7 and go back to the state at the time of H5, if that allows for the factions we want.
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verriker
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We don't need another 'eroes
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posted August 19, 2015 12:47 PM |
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alcibiades said:
Play nicely, people ...
thanks but it's OK, for my part there's no doubt Avonu was just ribbing me with a grammar joke in the spirit of fun and that was the intent of my response as well, sorry if abstruse lol
alcibiades said:
I think this is a very good summary of how there is plenty of room to fit more into Ashan if one should want it. The question why they didn't cross the ocean is not necessarily such a problem, after all why didn't people cross the Atlantic on a regular basis before the 1500's? Mostly because they didn't believe there was anything out there within reach of the boats they had available (which in fact was the case).
the difference in silly old Ashan is for several thousand years we have multiple races with wings who can fly wherever they want, water nagas whose entire purpose in life is to explore the sea, (so no boats even in question), we have the afterlife of Sheogh where demons are recruited from souls of the living and can invade the overworld any time and no suggestion exists there of anyone originating from or visiting other continents, all sorts of magic to make exploration easy, wizards and astrologers who can see all the way to Varn and recognize it has life on it from the comfort of their own homes, I can go on endlessly lol
the only non-completely-stupid way around it is basically still a contrived explanation like arr, ye dragon god scurvy afflicts ye if ye go out of arbitrary bounds, arrrrrr lol
alcibiades said:
Who inhabits the city of Karthal, located on the coast west of the Griffin Empire? Who are the sailors living on the Twilight Archipelagio west of Irollan? Who lives in the mountain town of Stormhelm - is that the people of the Free Cities of the east? And who inhabits the pyramid-like structure east of Ranaar? And are anybody hiding in the swamps on the coast above the islands in the Jade Ocean?
Remember that all this was ones suggested in the actual game material.
most of that crap has already been defined though, not even just in spinoff games but actually in Heroes already, and the answer is more of the same humans, elves, more nagas, etc lol
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted August 19, 2015 01:55 PM |
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Edited by Avonu at 14:05, 19 Aug 2015.
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alcibiades said:
Play nicely, people ...
I was honest to Erwinner - I really appreciate his corrections. It's not easy sometimes to write thoughts in English without mistakes.
alcibiades said:
Who are the sailors living on the Twilight Archipelagio west of Irollan?
Tieru - you could visit Twilight Archipelago twice in HoMM5 campaign - once as Agrael in his final mission and once as Findan.
alcibiades said:
Who lives in the mountain town of Stormhelm - is that the people of the Free Cities of the east?
Dark Messiah answered that question but earlier we have some answers from HoMM5 timeline - both Stonehelm and Karthal were Free Cities created by people which didn't abandon Ylath worship.
alcibiades said:
And who inhabits the pyramid-like structure east of Ranaar? And are anybody hiding in the swamps on the coast above the islands in the Jade Ocean?
There are more questions: what are these things living on Steppes of Ranaar and in Heresh?
(this is part of Thallan map from Heroes Compendium, so it should be canon)
verriker said:
the difference in silly old Ashan is for several thousand years we have multiple races with wings who can fly wherever they want, water nagas whose entire purpose in life is to explore the sea, (so no boats even in question), we have the afterlife of Sheogh where demons are recruited from souls of the living and can invade the overworld any time and no suggestion exists there of anyone originating from or visiting other continents, all sorts of magic to make exploration easy, wizards and astrologers who can see all the way to Varn and recognize it has life on it from the comfort of their own homes, I can go on endlessly
Who said they didn't visit? Maybe they did but as it was suggested in Might and Magic X Void magic could erase any memories about that (cheap move but acceptable in Ashan):
Quote:
I have a theory. History books claim that all the Shantiri vanished in one single night, but I don't think it's true. After all, many inhabitants of Thallan are descendants of the Shantiri. No, I believe it's the Shantiri culture that was wiped out, not the people.
And if my hunch is correct, then there's only one kind of magic capable of making people forget about their culture, and that's Void magic. But was it used by the Angels or the Faceless in their senseless war, or by the Shantiri themselves in a foolish attempt to save themselves? I'd love to discover the truth...
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verriker
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We don't need another 'eroes
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posted August 19, 2015 03:05 PM |
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Avonu said:
Who said they didn't visit? Maybe they did but as it was suggested in Might and Magic X Void magic could erase any memories about that (cheap move but acceptable in Ashan)
which again justifies a scrap of Ashan if they must resort to that,
I think if Erwin would want Ashan to ever be taken as a halfway serious setting, he would right now rename void magic to cheap retcon magic, ban it from stories and never use it again lol
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