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| Thread: Feral Cats of Australia |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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phe
Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
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posted July 18, 2015 10:12 PM |
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xerox said:
We know that Neanderthals had a culture...
poor...
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted July 18, 2015 10:20 PM |
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xerox said:
We know that Neanderthals had a culture and such so that's a good example of another species we ought to protect.
I remember that a few months ago in a VW thread when we were talking about immigrants you said that "immigrants shouldn't respect the values and culture of their host country as the human individual is above the collective values" or so, yet now you use a country's culture as an argument.
Also I'm pretty sure we can hunt you now, as trolls and humans are different species 
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted July 18, 2015 10:21 PM |
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Crows, Apes and dolphins have culture as well so would they be given protection?
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 18, 2015 10:23 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:27, 18 Jul 2015.
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xerox said:
Artu: I'm pretty sure your mental disability has to be super severe if it cause you to lose self-awareness.
First of all, self-awareness is not binary, highly intelligent life forms do have a degree of self-awareness but it's not just them we are talking about and that's not the point. If you formulate the entitlement to having rights by being able to sign a social contract with clear conscience, a lot of humans will also be excluded for various reasons. Humans are significantly rational, yes, but they are not this total embodiment of rational decisions, that you reduce them into by ideological bias. Also, even if we accept "being able to have rights" is such a case, that's just a terminological detail, you can say that the animals are "protected species" rather than species that possess rights.
xerox said:
The answer however is no. It is your species that matters not your status.
From what authority?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted July 18, 2015 10:24 PM |
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It's not that animals are completely devoid of value when divorced from their utility to humans, but I think when a person looks at that photo, they generally react in one of two ways:
1) He is gloating over the carnage (unlikely)
2) He spent time hunting and it paid off. Check it out.
I'm guessing relatively few people here have personal experience with hunting. Let me decipher how I already know you would react: if you spent X hours and X mornings hunting, spotting for a deer... and spotting for a deer... and spotting for a deer... and eventually you find one and shoot one, I can pretty much 99% guarantee you would want to pull out your cell phone and take a selfie. Or at least you would if it was an impressive catch.
Consider the difference between slaughtering a cow on a ranch and harvesting a deer in the wild. Do people take pics of a dead cow after they've slain it and are preparing to butcher it? No, that would be eccentric. I might as well take a picture of me pulling a fish out of a bucket and beating its head against a rock. But, people do take pictures of the game they've harvested from hunting. The difference here is in the endeavor of hunting. Hunting is connected to human achievement & perseverance. It is also - though perhaps not as much as in the past - a communal activity.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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xerox
Promising
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posted July 18, 2015 10:37 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
I remember that a few months ago in a VW thread when we were talking about immigrants you said that "immigrants shouldn't respect the values and culture of their host country as the human individual is above the collective values" or so, yet now you use a country's culture as an argument.
Also I'm pretty sure we can hunt you now, as trolls and humans are different species
The context is completely different :/
Artu:
1. My point is I only think aninals with some degree of self-awareness have rights. Yes this may include crows, dolphins and some primates.
2. I didn't write anything about social contract or rationality. Straw man.
3. Being a protected species is a right.
Authority comes from law enforcement.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 18, 2015 10:37 PM |
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Edited by artu at 06:13, 19 Jul 2015.
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@blizz
Dude, I understand the motive behind it, I'm just saying it is considered rather a primitive thing to do. (And I think justly so.)
I mean, ISIS does the same thing with human heads, royal kings used to do the same thing with human heads but now, it's considered an awful thing to do. The problem with ISIS is they live in another age.
Imagine Obama posing with an elephant body like Theodore Roosevelt did in the early 20th Century, his political career would be over in a second. Times change.
@xerox
You haven't used the words "signing a social contract" but, that's what having rights and responsibilities boils down to, so, no straw man.
Being protected and having rights are not the same thing, no, they only intersect. A forest can be protected (by another agent) but a forest can not have any rights, it is not even a self, put aside being self-aware. The nuance is, protection can be decided by others alone while rights are usually something you deliberately embrace.
Quote:
Authority comes from law enforcement.
I was referring to you asking "from what authority" when it suits you and then arbitrarily deciding things like "it is the specie that matters not the status." If laws that protect animals pass, the very same authority of law is on my side then.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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blizzardboy
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posted July 18, 2015 10:39 PM |
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It's less appreciated because more people are disconnected from hunting, and for that matter, even disconnected from the origins of the food on their table. They have no or little working understanding of the ecology around them because it's all produced for them and remains invisible. In other words: in ecology, there has been a net increase of ignorance.
If you live where I live, this wouldn't even be a discussion because it would be abundantly obvious that anybody taking a photo of a good catch is doing so because it's an achievement. But, that's because 90+% of the Jicarilla regularly or semi-regularly hunt. If this motivation is primitive, then you are every bit as primitive sharing any achievement you've ever done: video games, school, sports... they're all out, because it is "primitive" to share.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 18, 2015 10:49 PM |
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I would have no problems with a self pic made about a lion you killed with your bare hands.
Using an uzi from one kilometer away then bragging about the catch, is what depresses me. It depresses me when such beautiful and noble animal as a lion is killed for distraction.
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blizzardboy
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posted July 18, 2015 11:08 PM |
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Hunting is restricted to bolt action rifles at the most, or flintlock or bow season. I'm assuming Australia has similar regulations.
I think there's a large differences between destructive big game hunting and hunting as a rule.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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xerox
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posted July 18, 2015 11:15 PM |
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Artu: You're right, I was mixing up rights with the responsibility to protect. We have a responsibility to protect self-aware species because they are individuals with basic rights, not because animal protection is a right in itself.
Law enforcement can be used to enforce anything. That doesn't mean that everything is right to enforce.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 18, 2015 11:23 PM |
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I already watched some videos about hunting, a mixture of "my gun is bigger", "look at my stuff" and "the laws say I can".
Seeing that is very sad, at least for me. I see no hunting, at least as the concept means in nature. Do it to survive.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 18, 2015 11:25 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:27, 18 Jul 2015.
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blizz said:
If this motivation is primitive, then you are every bit as primitive sharing any achievement you've ever done: video games, school, sports... they're all out, because it is "primitive" to share.
The difference is, this achievement involves killing something and our sensitivities evolve as time passes. We know more about the animals and we relate to them more (ironically, since they mostly stopped to be a threat to us and we started to cause their extinction more and more as we became more populated).
As I said, there is a gap of sensitivity between the traditional hunter who respects the nature, his prey, his life source, and the tourist who just likes to shoot things for the thrill of it. It's kind of like the difference between your street thug who tries to bully you with his karate moves and the sensei with all his "always respect your opponent" stuff.
Hunting or killing animals in some sort may be inevitable as of now, but to brag about hunting is not, and it's tasteless to do so, especially if it's an advanced life form which has capacity of pain and affection. Just over a century ago, a regular guy would tease a blind man on the street, making fun of him, 500 years ago people used to cheer during decapitations. Now, imagine someone, standing behind the glass in a death row and going "huraaaay."
I'm not saying everyone who takes a picture with the deer they've hunted is a sadistic maniac, but this is a custom on its way out and I see no problem with that.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 18, 2015 11:27 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 23:29, 18 Jul 2015.
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blizzardboy said:
I'm guessing relatively few people here have personal experience with hunting.
i've hunted, killed, and processed animals for food, so my argument still stands. i understand it takes patience and time to hunt. but so does growing a garden. and yeah, people will take pictures of their produce; but they didn't kill it with a high-powered rifle. they took the defenseless plant from the soil with their bare hands, so i'm ok with it. it's not a type of pride over killing something; it's a type of pride that comes with nurturing your environment instead, to produce something that you and your family can gratefully eat.
it's the arrogance, carelessness, and wastefulness that gets to me, when it comes to hunters and their pride. people who trophy-hunt, in my opinion, are human garbage. i've been out hunting, and i'd see a whole deer carcass lying there, all the meat spoiling or spoiled. because the snows just wanted the antlers or the head. you'll see beer cans and other trash, because the snowsticks don't have any sort of appreciation for the habitat they hunted in. but that's the worst kind of hunter, let me get back to the everyday joe hunter:
they'll shoot the animal in the heart, wasting the best part of the animal, just to keep the head for a trophy, which has little nutritional value. you explain to me, how a sensible and responsible human being would do such a thing. even a cannibal would make better use of the meat it hunts, ffs. so what's the hunter's excuse?
serial killers and other assorted murderers collect trophies too, you know(and it took time and patience to get their kills, too). it would be rather easy lumping them in with the hunters, in regards to trophies and pride. and everyone knows how much people just loooove serial killers.
(spelling error)
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted July 18, 2015 11:40 PM |
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eh, celebrating a kill is alright to me. I find it disgusting and kinda creepy myself but you have every right to do it and i can't really stop people celebrating something they've worked hard to achieve. Hunting for sport is all kinds of messed up though.
xerox said:
1. My point is I only think aninals with some degree of self-awareness have rights. Yes this may include crows, dolphins and some primates.
you're gonna have a hard time finding animals without self-awareness. At a stretch jellyfish might be without it. maybe. Either way, every archosaur and mammal easily makes those requirements no problem and most other terrestrial creatures as well.
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 18, 2015 11:45 PM |
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I think you're confusing self-awareness with counciousmess.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 18, 2015 11:52 PM |
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xerox said:
counciousmess
That's a significantly meaningful typo coming from you, Xerox
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted July 18, 2015 11:52 PM |
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blizzardboy said:
If you live where I live, this wouldn't even be a discussion because it would be abundantly obvious that anybody taking a photo of a good catch is doing so because it's an achievement. But, that's because 90+% of the Jicarilla regularly or semi-regularly hunt. If this motivation is primitive, then you are every bit as primitive sharing any achievement you've ever done: video games, school, sports... they're all out, because it is "primitive" to share.
It is not that sharing achievement is primitive, but what that achievement represents. You may throw me an animal head and it wouldn't amuse me because an animal has been killed for someone's amusement. You could also throw me a condom and I'd think you had used some persuasion skills quite effectively.
So no, achievements differ by what they represent, likely also how you obtained them.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted July 18, 2015 11:55 PM |
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Besides food (probably self-defense as well), as well as to preserve some balance in nature (as we see with these cats) why do people hunt, anyway?
I mean, someone kills a lion and nobody blinks (usually),
but if a lion kills a man, everybody loses their minds.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 19, 2015 12:36 AM |
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lol.
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