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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 12, 2015 04:03 PM |
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Ghostly Language Spoken by Living Souls
My thoughts here didn't fit either of the two discussions regarding language taking place now. The topic in the VW is just wrong and BBs thread seemed too precise for my banter.
A person like Ghost here at HC and others too, speak/type what has been called in my life-time "broken-English." I speak "broken-Spanish."
A person speaking a broken-language was never jeered because it was rather obvious, to anyone with half-a-heart, that (I’ll use myself as the example)I was "working at speaking in their tongue." It was not offensive but flattering and showed I cared enough about them to make the serious effort to be understood and not "take for granite" <S> that they had English perfected or more importantly that I had some humility and wanted to learn too.
In short; someone speaking a broken-language was allowed an invisible "under-construction" sign or in BB's case now..."man at work."<L> btw, I'd say "hombre trabajar" and would move on and the person I spoke to knew what I meant and I wasn't put before the Spanish inquisition.<vbg>
Even in this age of supposed perfection, I imagine the same thing is happening all around the world; people are learning another language very slowly over time and the effort is chiefly guided by the simple effort of daily communication or need to know.
My closest Grand-Father was not of blood but by Spirit and he spoke a broken-English while I spoke broken-Spanish. He taught me construction and man did we have some wild conversations trying to get something built. I loved every minute of our twenty+ years of stumbling about with each other's words (like pronouncing the word English "sheet" from behind a Spanish accent)and so did he; although we reached a point where we could discuss some deep stuff...like when I said goodbye to him on his death-bed.
I'm a "soft-touch" (kind-hearted) so I appreciate when people "work at it" and think HC would the worse without Ghost and others.[g]
ps I imagine that it's daily typing a new language, instead of daily speaking the language that makes things harder for folks today. Instead of the needed communication and understanding whether correct form or not, the effort is made in a much harder medium....text versus sound.
Cheers all
____________
"Do your own research"
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted July 13, 2015 10:37 AM |
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Indeed, I admit that I let the other thread go a little too much in shambles...
But, I'll admit I like when somebody is trying to speak in Italian, I like it when some tourists come here and start saying: -Ciao, sono arrivato oggi, dove posso trovare albergo?- It always makes me smile, especially because they get some words wrong and they have that peculiar accent of a stranger.
But I appreciate the effort in that case, unlike when I see or hear broken English, because I already think that everybody and their grandma in the world (at the exception of Italy) knows English, so when I hear them I cringe a bit.
I believe such a reaction comes from the fact that I'm not a native speaker of English, so I'm not seeing somebody that's trying to speak my language, or perhaps because broken Italian is more understandable than broken English, even though that's subjective...
I'll admit I'd like to be a polyglot, and I'm trying to add French (To which I already know the basics), Spanish (Aided by my ancestry), German (That's the only way I'm going to speak with my cousins) and Russian (Because apparently modding Heroes III is big in Russia).
I also admit that I don't know how well I talk actually, writing doesn't seem to hard, but I never had the occasion of having a discussion with a native speaker, so that's another thing...
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 13, 2015 03:07 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 15:12, 13 Jul 2015.
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Neraus said:
Indeed, I admit that I let the other thread go a little too much in shambles...
I'm sorry I did not intend a rebuke of any sort. when I said wrong, it was that the thread was in the VW and you know what the forum is about. I wanted to be serious.
Neraus said:
But, I'll admit I like when somebody is trying to speak in Italian, I like it when some tourists come here and start saying: -Ciao, sono arrivato oggi, dove posso trovare albergo?- It always makes me smile, especially because they get some words wrong and they have that peculiar accent of a stranger.
As an American I traveled overseas a lot and always tried to speak the lingo. <S> Un fortunately I never made it south of Lake Como...loved that area!
I don't know what it is like now but when I traveled abroad Americans were quite arrogant and more often than not went into various countries in Europe and expected to speak English.
Even in Hawaii I heard some lame exchanges. A great big woman from Texas (no doubt the mother of a pro-linebacker)went up to a macadamia nut stand, to buy some, since they were big there at the time, sort of like going to Jamaica and buying rum. Anyway this huge woman quietly stood in line till it was her turn but apparently she had been irritated by the long line. When it was her turn, the conversation went like this;
Small Hawaiian girl: "Can I help you"
Texas amazon woman" Yeeha...can I have-a some-a them "thar" Macedonia nuts?"
The "young" girl did not understand. Macedonia and Macadamia sound quite different. "I'm sorry?"
"The big woman said in a much louder tone: "I want some-a of them thar Macedonian nuts and then as an afterthought...please."
The young girl looked confused and helpless, so I butt in and said "She wants Macadamia nuts."
The Texas woman did not thank me but got the nuts and left in a huff.
Neraus said:
But I appreciate the effort in that case, unlike when I see or hear broken English, because I already think that everybody and their grandma in the world (at the exception of Italy) knows English, so when I hear them I cringe a bit.
Not everyone is cut from the same cloth though and some can have a hard time with learning their own language, let alone someone else's.
Neraus said:
I believe such a reaction comes from the fact that I'm not a native speaker of English, so I'm not seeing somebody that's trying to speak my language, or perhaps because broken Italian is more understandable than broken English, even though that's subjective...
Glad you added subjective, because we can all look at a scene and not all see the same things.
Neraus said:
I'll admit I'd like to be a polyglot, and I'm trying to add French (To which I already know the basics), Spanish (Aided by my ancestry), German (That's the only way I'm going to speak with my cousins) and Russian (Because apparently modding Heroes III is big in Russia).
Well, your leaps and bounds ahead of me, not that it takes much to do that. When I was young, I was hard-headed and very defiant of anyone pushing anything my way...anything; if I didn't cook-up the idea, I didn't want to mess with whatever it was.
There are two choices in "learning" things that I regret, one was not learning other world languages and the other is not learning music properly. I learned it well as an art form but in truth it was a private-language and my playing guitar with others was a serious task, in finding where other's were "in chords & notes" etc. Had I bothered learning music's common written-language it would not have been hard work to "jam" with others.
Neraus said:
I also admit that I don't know how well I talk actually, writing doesn't seem to hard, but I never had the occasion of having a discussion with a native speaker, so that's another thing...
Glad you shared that thought. That supports the reason for my post. I think that even now, we do not understand how drastically the internet is changing our world, especially the young ones who do not really know what the world was like before the big change.
Your point is a good one because <imo> in text form, everything changes because language is then in a "Test" format and etched in stone. My Grandfather and I were not so unfortunate with our verbal struggle.
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"Do your own research"
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted July 13, 2015 03:49 PM |
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markkur said:
Neraus said:
Indeed, I admit that I let the other thread go a little too much in shambles...
I'm sorry I did not intend a rebuke of any sort. when I said wrong, it was that the thread was in the VW and you know what the forum is about. I wanted to be serious.
No worries, I was just talking about that other thread, just to testify my involvement and confirm the fact it wasn't a serious thread and made in the wrong place for a serious discussion.
I also found I made a grammatical mistake in the other post, my bad, especially when I wrote that English seems easy to write, the irony.
You're right when you say that it's true that tourists sometimes will try to speak their own language, even when it isn't understood at all, I remember several times in which my mother tried to speak Italian in places such as: The Czech Republic, The United Kingdom, the German Cantons of Switzerland.
But I attribute that more to not knowing at all the language of the place, and not too much on arrogance, and then of course there are the truly arrogant ones, it happened to me sometimes during my summer vacations and it's really unpleasant for those who don't understand them.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Nitramar
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 14, 2015 10:25 PM |
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Edited by Nitramar at 22:50, 14 Jul 2015.
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Neraus said:
I like it when some tourists come here and start saying: -Ciao, sono arrivato oggi, dove posso trovare albergo?- It always makes me smile, especially because they get some words wrong and they have that peculiar accent of a stranger.
You probably don't work in customer service, do you? I've been to Italy with my family a few times and every time my mother tried to speak Italian with waitors/cashiers they got that "oh please, not another one of those tourists who think they can speak" expression on their face and instantly switched to their own broken English  . Then, In France I came across people who refused to speak English even though they probably had the skills (and even though I don't speak French).
I guess Markkur is right that communicating more with text and less with speech may have some impact on how people learn other languages. It probably also has an impact on how they understand different spoken variants of their own language. I even heard stories about Swedes who switch to English when talking with Swedish-speaking Finns because they can't understand the dialect (which is just strange because most Finnish dialects of Swedish are very clear, except maybe for some Finnish loan words). ...Though, I would understand the switch if it were the broken Swedish you get offered in public services in Finland if you happen to have "mother tounge: Swedish" written in your personal records (like I do, unfortunately). Every time I deal with some kind of authorities I have to explain that I'm bilingual and that I'd prefer to use the language that both speakers are actually comfortable with (well, I don't say it exactly like that, and sometimes they even have the courage to ask me if Finnish is ok). On the other hand I don't have any problems listening to foreigners speaking broken Finnish, and Finnish athletes' broken English is just too funny (or sad) for this world. It's all context dependent.
I studied German in school for five or six years (until I graduated from high school five years ago), and I can still read German texts pretty well but I wouldn't dare try to speak the language with anyone. Broken English seems like the only broken language you don't have to feel ashamed for speaking (or maybe I just feel that way because my English is not quite that broken).
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 15, 2015 12:04 PM |
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Nitramar said:
(or maybe I just feel that way because my English is not quite that broken).
Greetings Nitramar. It's funny but thanks to you, I now think "Broken-language" needs a definition. Which is; the person never studied a formal-thing about the language he/she is trying to speak on a regular basis. <g>
"Learn something new everyday" is the old axiom/adage/saying. With the Internet, you folk have quite the advantage and most likely, i'll guess, in that since my "broken-Spanish" got the job done, I never cared to go the formal route...it makes a lousy incentive.
@Neraus
Wow man, not a chirp about me being in the Lake Como area? Are lots of Americans there all the time now? My strongest memory of northern Italy is fried-egg sitting atop my pizza.<L> I think I had it for breakfast.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted July 15, 2015 02:41 PM |
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Edited by TDL at 14:44, 15 Jul 2015.
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I believe there is an inherent bias by native speakers towards people speaking in a 'broken-language'. Albeit person-dependent, a huge percentage of people instinctively show their disapproval of communicating with a person speaking a broken language. Maybe because they unconsciously expect the person not to understand what you are trying to tell them or even place the blame on the fact they do not know the language when you talk about something serious with them.
This is the case in my close proximity in Lithuania concerning native russian speakers. In spite of being out of the soviet union for over 20 years, the influence still permeates the country. The switch from russian to english as the primary 2nd language has largely occurred, but only among the youth and recent graduates. However, for the older people and a majority of native speakers, russian IS the language to use.
Since I am largely involved in an organisation which deals predominantly with members from the neighbouring Baltic States and Belarus, my main tool of communication is the russian language. Admittedly, I speak a broken form of it, because I haven't properly learnt the grammatical structures required. Speaking to those foreigners about issues in the scene is so much different compared to the locals, because they tolerate my inability to speak fluent russian. I sometimes switch to english for some words since my vocabulary lacks greatly in that department, and since they have a basic understanding of it, they can respond further on. They teach me how to fix my language, they commend me for my efforts and otherwise help me maintain a healthy contact/relationship with them.
Now, the locals are a whole different area. The moment they hear broken russian, their faces are either adorned with frowns, wry smiles or bland disregard for any effort, or they instantly shut down any efforts to speak russian by telling me to speak in my native language. This is especially prevalent in a certain local club where the members are predominantly russian. While it is somewhat commendable that they understand my language and let me speak it, when you are surrounded by 90% of people speaking another language, it feels wrong not to try and communicate in it, especially when you have the basic grasp of it.
At the other end of the spectrum, some of them have been living here for 30-40 years and haven't put any effort to learn the local language. Maybe they understand some of it but are too scared to speak in it or just mock the language as inferior. It feels kind of derogatory when they show signs of disapproval when you try to speak a broken form of their language, when they do not try it themselves. And this is the ones I literally loathe communicating the most with purely because of their bias towards both my nativity and my broken understanding of theirs.
Admittedly, as I mentioned before in the post, I had also taken up a somewhat disrespectful stance towards english users in the past, especially in close proximity. While the level of my english has never been top notch, I always regarded it as decent for a foreigner. The problem was that when I was a teenager, I had hardly any respect for people TRYING to speak a broken language without properly learning it or having learnt the basics of it but nothing more. In my view it felt as if they are trying to disrespect the language by doing that, as well as those who put in the effort to master it. I was never been vocal about this, mostly keeping it to myself and actually sometimes even trying to help fix the iffiness of their speech patterns (boosting my ego/pride most likely rather than being helpful). This faded with time, however, as I grew up and was put into the same position. However, it only proves that time should solve it really, especially when you are 30+ yrs old, but somehow it feels that there just simply is and always will be that inherent sense of disrespect towards those speaking in a broken language.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 16, 2015 10:06 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 12:49, 17 Jul 2015.
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@TDL
Quote:
I believe there is an inherent bias by native speakers towards people speaking in a 'broken-language'. ... Maybe because they unconsciously expect the person not to understand what you are trying to tell them or even place the blame on the fact they do not know the language when you talk about something serious with them.
I never really thought much about this before but you are certainly correct. Teachers of a language are especially cruel to someone "working-at-it, outside the classroom and without supervison and correction." I've witnessed this horror and the subject eventually quit saying anything...in either language.
Quote:
This is the case in my close proximity in Lithuania concerning native russian speakers. In spite of being out of the soviet union for over 20 years, the influence still permeates the country. The switch from russian to english as the primary 2nd language has largely occurred, but only among the youth and recent graduates. However, for the older people and a majority of native speakers, russian IS the language to use.
I'm very glad you contributed, I had no thought about the historical implications till now. With all the upheaval of the 20th century, in a way "Broken languages were survival in the aftermath of war." There is a retelling of that story here in the U.S. in that for well beyond a century, poor people came to the "melting-pot" and had to learn English...a slow grind acommplished over generations. However the first was alway behind the eight-ball. Usually only the bread-winners learned the new language.
Today I keep hearing that people come here and do not want to learn English and furthermore do not have to, because our government is so...um, thoughtful.
Quote:
Since I am largely involved in an organisation which deals predominantly with members from the neighbouring Baltic States and Belarus, my main tool of communication is the russian language. Admittedly, I speak a broken form of it, because I haven't properly learnt the grammatical structures required. Speaking to those foreigners about issues in the scene is so much different compared to the locals, because they tolerate my inability to speak fluent russian. I sometimes switch to english for some words since my vocabulary lacks greatly in that department, and since they have a basic understanding of it, they can respond further on. They teach me how to fix my language, they commend me for my efforts and otherwise help me maintain a healthy contact/relationship with them.
Very interesting. With English sweeping across the world I've seen the situation you explain above happening at times. Must be our Media having such an impact abroad. Hollywood and all that.
Quote:
While it is somewhat commendable that they understand my language and let me speak it, when you are surrounded by 90% of people speaking another language, it feels wrong not to try and communicate in it, especially when you have the basic grasp of it.
I think I understand you. I would want to keep at it myself. It's strange in a way; If knowlege is power...then, in an odd way, those folks are wanting to keep the upper hand. i.e. "No need for you to learn ours, we know yours" sort of thing.
Quote:
It feels kind of derogatory when they show signs of disapproval when you try to speak a broken form of their language, when they do not try it themselves. And this is the ones I literally loathe communicating the most with purely because of their bias towards both my nativity and my broken understanding of theirs.
I call these people single-minded-purists and they can be anywhere. One language and it must be just so.
Quote:
...This faded with time, however, as I grew up and was put into the same position. However, it only proves that time should solve it really, especially when you are 30+ yrs old, but somehow it feels that there just simply is and always will be that inherent sense of disrespect towards those speaking in a broken language.
Maturity's best teacher I think is experience, the more you've have the more you're changed.
As far as it continuing on? Most likely, ignorance abounds and might always be with us. The worst aspect of ignorance is when a person boldly brandishes it about as if it were a dang virtue.<S>
____________
"Do your own research"
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 17, 2015 12:58 AM |
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Nitramar said:
You probably don't work in customer service, do you? I've been to Italy with my family a few times and every time my mother tried to speak Italian with waitors/cashiers they got that "oh please, not another one of those tourists who think they can speak" expression on their face and instantly switched to their own broken English .
Lol, I have the exact same memory with my mother in Italy.
I think the way we treat any broken tongue entirely depends on the context, our expectation and the way the person breaks it. While some people can get fairly complex points with sort of a broken tongue (Sal with his unique syntax in English comes to mind), some can't. And if we're not talking about "pass the salt, please" that can cause some serious communication breakdown. If it's a social context where you wait for the person to be decently educated in the tongue they are breaking, like an academic speech or something, and they are terrible at it, you sometimes lower your expectations. I generally don't like people making such a big fuss out of it and acting all smug though, I mean, who does.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 17, 2015 10:28 AM |
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And you didn't hear my mother language, which is as broken as hell now, after 20 years of nonpracticing.
In fact, I am always late with syntaxes in many languages, probably due to the fact that I am forced to speak several of them, and every day. Best friend is italian, 3 students are italian, another is spanish (she is gorgeous girl so I need to brag in spanish), everybody around talks french, most musicians I meet talk english only, girl-friend now is talking only german in order to educate her (she thinks so) structural mind (ah, the feminism and the promise that they are equal to us)- therefore I need to follow, mother phones me and insists on talking romanian, probably because she doesn't know another one. And all those syntaxes are very different, even from italian to spanish and then to french, there are a lot of close traps.
I will start to envy Ghost and his international mute language.
But one thing is sure: I consider those native english picking on your grammar -to get the advantage- to be pure idiots, especially when all they talk is english.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 17, 2015 12:46 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 12:54, 17 Jul 2015.
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@Artu
Quote:
I think the way we treat any broken tongue entirely depends on the context, our expectation and the way the person breaks it.
That's true, although with me, as long as I can get some gist of what the speaker intends and I can keep the ball rolling...I'm aok.
@ Salamandre
Quote:
In fact, I am always late with syntaxes in many languages, probably due to the fact that I am forced to speak several of them, and every day. Best friend is italian, 3 students are italian, another is spanish (she is gorgeous girl so I need to brag in spanish), everybody around talks french, most musicians I meet talk english only, girl-friend now is talking only german in order to educate her (she thinks so) structural mind (ah, the feminism and the promise that they are equal to us)- therefore I need to follow, mother phones me and insists on talking romanian, probably because she doesn't know another one. And all those syntaxes are very different, even from italian to spanish and then to french, there are a lot of close traps.
Damnit Sal, I applaud you. I'd couldn't go there but I've a feeling if I did, I short-circuit in some kind of brain-frazzle. <L>
There is a heck of a lot around this subject that I never considered before but then again, I'm one of those Americans that at one time didn't "have" to lift a finger. I went the broken-spanish route m/l for the same reason Sal is going for German.
Edit= Btw, there is another weird aspect to the broken text-issue.
Just wait to enjoy the fun of aging and severe pain with website spell-checkers working and then not. Wow...what a treat the combo is.
Breadwinnders...good grief.
____________
"Do your own research"
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted July 27, 2015 06:58 PM |
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Nitramar said:
Neraus said:
I like it when some tourists come here and start saying: -Ciao, sono arrivato oggi, dove posso trovare albergo?- It always makes me smile, especially because they get some words wrong and they have that peculiar accent of a stranger.
You probably don't work in customer service, do you? I've been to Italy with my family a few times and every time my mother tried to speak Italian with waitors/cashiers they got that "oh please, not another one of those tourists who think they can speak" expression on their face and instantly switched to their own broken English .
Wasn't it obvious that I don't work in such places?
Ah well, I can understand why the waiters get that expression, the problem is that once somebody starts speaking your language, but he doesn't understand it he starts making mistakes that can ruin the experience for everybody. Indeed, it's almost like an obligation to know English, just to prevent misunderstandings, and, consequently, to prevent bad publicity, and surely it's bad when people say that waiters in Italy don't understand Italian.
As for me liking that little quirk of tourists is because most of the time I don't really meet people who ask me direction, and its even funnier when it's somebody that doesn't even know your language, but they still try to make themselves understandable by natives, as, Italians are famous for not knowing English (And there is truth to that... Our prime minister knows how to make an audience laugh, unintentionally though...) so you can imagine how much do they feel relaxed when you start speaking in English, it's horrible, though, when Germans expect you to speak in German.
I usually don't have problem speaking with Spanish people, in my experience it's a lot easier to talk with them not knowing the language than with French people, who, by the way I need confirmation on this, appear to like messing with us Italians...
But, I'll be honest, the biggest reason I like tourists trying to speak Italian is because of that sadistical feeling of payback, you've forced me to learn English to speak with the world? Now try speaking in Italian and understand the pain of my people!
Honestly though, the pain of my people isn't talking in English, but rather it was talking in Italian, and that's because those damned Piemontese forced their language upon us...
____________
Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 28, 2015 04:40 PM |
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Neraus said:
But, I'll be honest, the biggest reason I like tourists trying to speak Italian is because of that sadistical feeling of payback, you've forced me to learn English to speak with the world? Now try speaking in Italian and understand the pain of my people!
Man...you're ruthless. Ok here's the real test...even if I was wearing a t-shirt with HoMM? <L>
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted July 28, 2015 05:33 PM |
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I don't do that to everybody. 
But I would give you a warm welcome in any language you prefer if you wore that, even if I don't know it.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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