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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Heroes IV: Basic Methodology
Thread: Heroes IV: Basic Methodology This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted April 06, 2002 11:27 AM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 6 Apr 2002

Heroes IV: Basic Methodology

Since Heroes IV has graced our shelves, and many of us have had chances to experience the splendour (or sourness) of the game, it is obvious that the style of genre Heroes IV is, has had an effect on long time players of the Heroes series.
Yes, it is unfortunate that the game has been criticised by many people, which are not impressed by the amount of bugs, but also the more 'RPGish' style of the game itself hasn't been too popular. The old experts of previous Heroes' must change their ways in playing this new game, if they wish to be successful.
The difficulty and aspect of strategy incorporated in the game has also escalated, as this game boasts many new features that change the game, making it more diverse, and having many changes to gameplay in general. Some of these include the new skill and magic systems, which have had one of the greatest impacts on the game so far. Another addition is the amount of artifacts and map locations found spread across the map.
Although other aspects of the game such as graphics have not taken the eye of their possessor, but these problems cannot be solved, and therefore it is not worth talking about them.
I understand with the myriad of changes I have mentioned, and some I havent, people will find it hard to get a feel for the game, therefore, in this thread, I wish to discuss new aspects of the game that are challenging, interesting, new, and exciting and put them into perspective with the game and how we can adjust to these changes.
This thread is only slightly strategic, although the main objective of creating this thread is to make people more familiar with the changes in Heroes IV, and discuss them.

There are many changes that have affected the world of Heroes IV, and have made it different and more unique than any other series before it. So, I hope to outline these changes and discuss on how much of an impact they've caused the game, and if this change was for better or for worse in your opinion.
There are many aspects and elements that contribute to construct and create the diverse Heroes IV game, so, as I do not possess the game as yet, I'd like to touch on the fields, and all the changes that have been administered.

The Adventure Map and associated Features
One obvious change here is the amount of new map locations. Another stand out feature of the adventure map is the wandering creatures, in my opinion, this feature is great, as they can actually move and stray from their usual position to attack you. Although, they can only move 5 hexes around their initial starting area. The adventure map also incorporates many bonuses and enhancements, such as artifacts and loose resources. The adventure map also includes the new; and generally praised feature of the Fog of War.
Also, moving from castle to castle will become much more easy and 'stealthy' with the introduction of caravans, which will replace town portal to a certain extent.

Now, the question we must ask ourselves to see if Heroes IV initial generalisation of being rated as 'bad' is correct, are these changes going to be better or worse for the game, and how they can be used well throughout the scenarios and games to come?

I believe that some of the new map locations have very different effects to what we're used to in previous versions of Heroes. Now, just because this could be different, it doesn't automatically constitute it being bad or not good for the game. One new adventure map location that has been talked about in a previous thread is the 'Oracle' the Heroes IV substitute for an obelisk. Although, there are 11 types of Oracles, and it is not known what the different Oracles purposes are.
I believe that castles will now be of added importance because of the use of prisons and special buildings which have great capabilities over the adventure map, and hence the use of walls around them, and even small towns, which have not been developed. Another great change that has taken place within the castle is the usage of caravans. As many of you know, they transport creatures from town to town without being noticed. This again will have an effect on how important a castle is, as there may not be many structures, but of the ones that are there, many are significant.
Combat and Similar Factors
Another element of Heroes IV that has been under scrutiny by some, despite its new isometric view is the battle screen. The main feature of this is that heroes may now fully partake in battle, helping the army by sword or staff. It is also possible for heroes to merge in one army, taking the best from both might and magic heroes. Another new factor involved with combat is the realistic retaliation, which is a change from the previous series way of dealing with damage. There is also the special addendum for ranged attackers. The Line of Sight, or LoS. This means that ranged attackers may no longer fire at enemies hindered by trees or any other obstacles.

Now, some say that heroes-in-combat is a plus, but some say it is better that this change was excluded from Heroes IV. I believe that this change has a big impact on how people play the game, as it encourages the player to develop the hero on one side of the spectrum. Might or Magic.
Line of Sight has also induced other changes, such as a ranged defense. This is another change that must be contemplated. It is obvious that combat situations have changed significantly, not only these changes, but, the amount of creatures, combination of heroes, and the usage of spells, artifacts, and potions. Veteran players of Heroes must adapt to these changes, if they make the game better or not in their eyes.

Just if some are curious, these are the new monster number words:
Few 1-4
Several 5-9
Band 10-19
Dozens 20-49
Scores 50-99
Company 100-249
Hundreds 250-500
Host 500-999
Legion 1000-2499
Thousands 2500+

Keeping in mind all the changes that have occurred throughout the past years, and that I have yet to play the game, I give you my town rankings:
Asylum: Although the units are generally expensive, I believe the Asylum have the combination with Orcs, Medusas, Nightmares and Black Dragons to have great success in the game. Asylum also excell in magic, with Chaos Magic helping the army directly.
Necropolis Yes, the Necropolis have come a long way since Heroes III, where I thought they were mediocre at best. Vampires, having great effectiveness in Heroes IV, and possessing 2 strong level 4 creatures, it may even challenge the Asylum for top spot in days to come.
Academy This castle, I could almost rank in second position, if it hadnt been for the 3rd level performance of Nagas and Genies. On the positive side, they have the most powerful ranged attacker in the game, and the best second level creature in the Gold Golem. Also a good combination of skills associated with the Heroes, such as Nobility and Estates. The price is another setback.
Stronghold Yes, I am aware the Stronghold as difficult access to magic, but their creature economics is amazing! It only costs 2750 gold and 2 resources for a Behemoth, which deals 55-70 damage, reduces defense, and has 240 HP. Barbarians also have great attack and defense power to compensate for the lack of magic.
Preserve I expected more from the Preserve town. Yes, it does possess the uncanny ability of summoning creatures from different castles, but not even that can save it if the base of the town is not sufficient. Their basic hero classes are poor, although they do have great secondary hero classes. The Preserve 3rd level is good, with a combination of Griffins and Unicorns, it challenges the Necropolis lineup.
Haven This castle has faltered, and its former glory in Heroes III was short lived, as it has gone back to the trends of the old Knight castle. The Haven lacks strong units, and nothing stands out as a castle. Hero classes are average, but can be damaging in the magic department with spells like resurrection being cast by the Archangels.

In conclusion; yes, it is obvious that I have only started list a handful of changes that have occurred between the times of Heroes III and Heroes IV, but it is imperative that us, the players of the game react and play the game around the changes. Not the changes adapt to us. Also, much of the thoughts about aspects of the game being a failure is in the mind. If we thought that change was going to be bad before we bought the game, it is going to be bad when we do possess it.
If people continue playing Heroes IV with their Heroes III instincts and style, it is most likely the game wont be appreciated as much as it could be.

So, please, share your thoughts about the changes of Heroes IV, and give us your opinions, and how they helped or hindered the game.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.

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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted April 06, 2002 12:03 PM

Hi there, Hydra, good post.

I disagree on the "slaughtering" of the Haven, though.
Although they may be weak in the HP compartment, they make up for that in other ways.

They have two low level shooters with no range penalty (a vast advantage in the early stages), the crusaders have an awesome double attack, and priests have a great potential. Led by a good couple of heroes, I'd say your standing a fair chance not losing any troops in combat.

Spells like heavenly shield, martyr, song of peace and regeneration used wisely together makes it easy to "organize"  damage dealing favorably for your troops.

Add the resurrection skill at some level, and your army will have great consistency.

And Preserve are weak at first, but with creature portal and level 4 creature dwelling you can have Griffins, Waspworts, Mantis and Phoenix/Faerie Dragons in the same town! Now that's hard to top, towno a towno.

Play well
DonGio
____________
There are 10 types of people: Those who read binary, and those who don't.

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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted April 06, 2002 01:24 PM

Quote:
Barbarians also have great attack and defense power to compensate for the lack of magic.


I dont agree with this. the barbarians can only select a might hero, and that might hero is just like any other might hero from any other town. No advantage there, no compensation just the same attack and defence power as any other might hero.

The breeding pit gives 50% more growth, wich can be a compensation, but only on rich closed maps, since it costs 15k gold.


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Krishhh
Krishhh


Adventuring Hero
still learning spells
posted April 06, 2002 02:18 PM

Academy has the greatest level 2-gold golem?  I know they have magic resistance but they are soooooo slow and haste is from an opposite alligment. And magi rule! They have very strong spell in great numbers while GG will be just shot while  they sloowly walk along the battlefield.
____________
Promising student of magic.

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Henl86
Henl86


Known Hero
oLd SkOoL RA2 OwNaH
posted April 06, 2002 03:23 PM

That was a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG post.
____________

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jondifool
jondifool


Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
posted April 06, 2002 04:00 PM bonus applied.

Can we find the new principles?

to Hydra And everyone else : I still see alot of H3 thinking in your castle ratings and clearly understandelble when you haven't played the game.

I think We end up with a total different rating of the castles , when learning more about the game. I mention the preserves creature portal to put preserve alot higher in regard.(tactical options in wich creature to hire , to counter your opponents strength is very good).

Genies is strong!! all spellcasting units should be judged mainly on their spells not there stats! And spellcasting units is the most troublefull to meet when fighting neutral stacks!!To have spellcasters is very poverfull. Not to be underestimated at all!

Walkers is more vulnerble than ever! thrust me on this!! This limits yor setup alot , because to many high level walkers is asking for loosing. This hits stronghold , because to not have to many walkers it does have to go for a lot more expensive building path, making it slower in getting out there!

And I could keep on going..

I regards myself as good at analysing games, I developed some strategies about H3 without having played it, and they hold, because you could read the game out off the numbers more or less. And H3 wasn't that different from homm2.

This is not the same for homm4, Not at all, the situation is very different.
At the moment I have no idea of wich town is going to be best , and wich is going to lack, and this is because the creature choises and hero development, makes it very obscure what will work and what will not! It is not only new features, it is new principles to judge from! But we have to locate theesse principles before judging.
 
One New principle to learn to handle is the rock, sisser, papper effect applyed to the game. Every creature have another killing it out right!
This is clearly shown with preserve against asylum looking at the level 4 creatures. But look closer att it and you see the effect nearly every where!

black dragons kills fairy dragons out right (immume to magic!!)
Fairys kills hydras (high magic damage ranged, flying against a walker)
Hydras kill phoenix (no retalitation wins , though phonix can wait hit run, wait hit run, to offset no retaliation)
And finaly Phoenix kills blacks (black does fire damage !!)

So evaluating preserve against asylum. Hmm Not that obvius looking at level 4 creatures!!

Mainly this means that in Homm4 we are not going to rate towns based on its creatures and there avarage stats, but on the best combos against another town, at least in 2 persons multis. Getting to know your opponent setup is going to be very important.

The Magic Evaluation
The Rock, Sisser , Papper  effect or every thing has its counter transfer to magic spells to where as, gamewinning spell are countered by other just as dreadfull spells.
The point is does your enemy have this spell or not! Is the counter in play or not. Do you get your game winning spell in your guild or not! More dificult it is to see neighbour magic schools against each others because , the counter spells is less obvius! (its not named necromacy ward or something alike) But they are still there! Steal enchanments rules out blesses!!And so on!

In some case (preserve, asylum) it might be worth it to build mage guild before high level creature dwellings! Simply to have the optimezed combo, and not stand with an important  level 3, 4  and 5 spell not worth casting! If in the game you only are going to learn your own castle spells , this could have a lot of importance.

The Heroes principle.
At the moment on this board there is arguments about all 4 primary nonmagic skills as a must have for multiplayer games. And its way to early to be sure of whats best for heroes yet! So evaluation of the might heroes is at least difficult.
Would Nobility wins a game , would stelth, would tactics,
Would combat only, we don't know yet , on some maps maybe one, with some castles maybe another combo! When is it worth to develop magic , when if ever magic only.
All we at the moment nows for sure is if you want a hero to stay alive in a battle max combat is a good idea , and maybe have a lot of resistance (resistance potions can maybe do it in the cases of a magic using enenemy).
But the evaluation of towns strength is also going to be based on wich of the primery might skill lines is going to be rated most important!

the evaluation of the magic lines is more spell dependent, and there the question is do you get the important spell or not!( Still talking medium games!). But still the special abillitys from demonology, summouning, diplomacy, sorcery, and ressurecktion is going to be counted in also! Not only for the towns , but neighbouring as well! This is far from being settled i think!

Another thing to focus on is looking at the castles abilityes to clear there own country side! And to things have to be taken in effect looking at this!
how fast can it be done, and when can it be done without losses or with minimal losses! And I find all are capable off doing it!

Again its pretty clear that different building paths would put you stronger against either , walkers, flyers, shooters, or spellcasters.
Preserve , can clear fast without losses due to summoning spells.
Necro will raise undead after battle and can manage small losses because of that. Vampires can do a lot to!
Haven ,  shooters without penality and spells off healing  and wards (and after battle resurrections) it fares well.
Order: Shooters, spellcasters, (summon skeletons ,create illusions) can also do it well
Assylum: Direct damage and stealth gives it a lot of options to!
Stronghold: Uses the hero to take the punishment!

But at the moment to tell who is best off its not easy!!
But this abillity is also going to mean more than the standard H3 rating of creatures against each others.

As an exsample of the complications i would take the case of life against dead! If you playes life , would you dare to build  alot of shooters giving you a good easy clearense off your countryside! When knowing that Necropolis , would proberly comes with high defense, mostly flying troops there laugh at shooters! ( all troops either haves 30 in defense or is skeletal taking half defense from shooting). So you may go for more walkers than else knowing  this makes you a little more vulnerable to a demon setup!

And finally I like to say that we are a long way from knowing what is the different towns overall best setup , playing against unknown towns or just more opponnents, simply because most setups have counters! But it will emerge and some players  with some towns might have settled it already , and it is just the community there have to accept the wisdom! But its going to be a longer process and gives a lot more stuff to discussions and challenges than H3 ever did! Looking forward to that.

With regards
Jondifool

____________
The Oxe is slow, but earth have patience

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RMS
RMS


Responsible
Legendary Hero
-ing yummy foods
posted April 06, 2002 10:21 PM

...not going to put any of you through the torture of reading another long post, but in case you were wondering, here's my current ranking system as well...which doesn't exactly fit in well with Hydra's opinion

1) Preserve
2) Haven
3) Asylum
4) Academy
5) Stronghold
6) Necropolis
____________
This space for rent.

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DarkTitan
DarkTitan


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 07, 2002 02:06 AM

Hmmmm. Hydra's embarrased us again...

What a post wheres the mods? some body give this guy a qp!! (i mean me) j/k


Well if i may RMS could i do a little changing of my own (recieves an im saying yes)

1) Preserve - Bad choice- you could rearrange this with Asylum.
2) Haven - Haven CAN be good when worked well - but not all newbies to the game can do that. drop down to 4th  
3) Asylum - superb town - some body move it to the top!
4) Academy - move it up - it has the pottensial to beat some towns.
5) Stronghold - No magic (bad thing)- its creatures kind of make up for it-
6) Necropolis
yep leave thi tow where it is - it still doesnot show any real skill to cause a downfall to one of the teams above-

Okay my order:
1 Asylum
2 Peserve
3 Stronghold
4 Haven
5 Academy
6 Necropolis
____________

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted April 07, 2002 12:45 PM

Changes and Town Rankings

OK. Reading the posts preceding to this one, it is apparent that the views upon the town rankings in Heroes IV are unsettled. I concede, it was perhaps a mistake on my behalf to list town rankings before I actually played the game. Although the thread may not have as many replies as it has, and that can be at least one positive taken from the past replies. Another is that many views have been shared, and there is a greater understanding now of what towns are really capable of. An earlier thread, created by Hoplosternum, stated that the towns were unbalanced, after reading the above posts, one may have a valid point of suggesting otherwise.

So, now, with the thoughts of Town Rankings behind us, I would like us to embark on a new topic, the changes Heroes IV has brought us. I will also reply to others who have posted here, although not concerning towns directly.

"Mainly this means that in Homm4 we are not going to rate towns based on its creatures and there average stats, but on the best combos against another town, at least in 2 persons multis."

Yes, although, it would be a silly action not to take into account the towns overall performance against other towns, and see how it eventuates. Testing towns in Heroes IV can be likened to a Science experiment. Firstly, we hypothesise over each town, analysing strengths and weaknesses, and making an assumption to conclude.
Then, comes the test. This is where our theories are tested, and further examination occurs, this time in a more physical form. The test brings new information to light. There is time to review the previous hypothesis, and apply the evidence obtained in the test.
Furthermore, a new hypothesis is written. Taking into account the changes and knowledge acquired. This elaborates the opinion of a certain person, and applies them to the final experiment.
The big test is now upon us. This is where all theories are tested. Using this to compound all knowledge, preparing for the final evaluation.
Finally, the evaluation process is administered; applying and taking into account all formerly obtained knowledge and information to create the evaluation. This is the final view upon all towns.
For many of you, the process I just explained can be executed. For me, sadly, it cannot. I am lacking the testing parts. My tests would go something like this:
Hypothesise
Gather information
Hypothesise once more
Gather Information again
Conclude.

"It really is all a matter of play style preference."

I myself am known for stating comments along those lines. One cannot have great proficiency with the Stronghold castle if he/she doesn't like to play defensively. The two elements do not work together well.

Although, taking this out of account, imagine the best-suited player operating each town, this is what we try to achieve. Of course, this is unrealistic, but workable in theory. (Which everything is, mind you)

"Your evaluation doesn't take much more than creature stats into account."

Yes, well, that really isn't of any relevance when I can list 2 people who didn't give any reasonings at all when listing their town rankings.
It is better to have a lacking reasoning than not to have one at all.
But I concede it wasn't a large evaluation. Read my Strategic Gameplay thread for a larger, more concise evaluation of a few towns.
I hadn't planned for my discussion to be based around that little portion of my post; so, I plan to move on.

The main feature of this is that heroes may now fully partake in battle, helping the army by sword or staff. This shall have some mammoth impending effects on the way we approach battles. Although it is not imperative for a hero to guide creatures through the game, it would be of great priority to do just that. Placing an army without a hero in the latter stages of the game wouldn't be a sane strategic move.

But how has this change influenced players of the series to reassess their style of playing the game? This change is probably the single largest one undertaken in Heroes IV.
For me, I will focus on developing my heroes more than I did in Heroes III, as creatures and spells usually took my first priority in previous series.
The development of heroes shall be influential in scenarios to come. What priorities people have while playing the game can greatly alter the outcome of the scenario if the trend continues throughout gameplay. Creatures and spells still have high priority in my mind, but if they're to get assistance in emerging victorious in Heroes IV are the Heroes. I think that may be why it is Heroes IV not Creatures IV.
Another aspect of heroes that again moves them to a higher rung on the 'Ladder of Priority' is the elaboration of primary hero classes. These are now broken down to secondary hero classes, which all have bonuses, and are subject of the development of hero skills.

Another change in which I wish to give my opinions on is the compound of Fog of War and flagging mines.
I believe that the introduction of the Fog of War has brought more diversity and mystery into the game by concealing areas on the adventure map that could previously be discovered with ease.
Flagging mines also eradicates this feature.
Eliminating the Fog of War in this particular fashion rasies other factors. The skills incorporated with the heroes also have effects on the Fog of War. Such as the Asylum castle's Thief. This Hero possesses stealth, and is able to move around the map with relative ease. Along with magical stregth, Thieves help the Asylum explore the map with proficiency. This can be a startling combination, especially if the better part of the Aslyum's creatures can be projected well.

Here are my opinions on two of the most important changes. Please, give us your views, and state your opinions on changes you feel are particularly important.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.

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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted April 07, 2002 02:46 PM

I am so tired of these long posts filled with a bunch of air to look good to those whose eyes are weak. I have a challenge for you hydra. Write your 5 next posts with 300 words or less, then I will applaud you

or.. dont care about what I write and go on the way you do. Im not in anyway represeting what the other ppl on the HC think, Im just a  lone loon that likes so get the shiet straight and not with a bunch of jibberisch.

Followers of Holy Jebus, the foobums united, go with me on this one !!! yEEEES!!

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Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted April 07, 2002 02:51 PM

Couldnt agree with you more bjorn, posts like that easily becomes boring in my opinion. But bjorn said it so wisely so id say it too, this is just my personal opinion. The only way id read a long post like that is if i am really interested in the subject but it dont happens alot.

Jebus for president!

/Stefan
____________
"Youre zeroes and ones, youre wrong where im right"

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RMS
RMS


Responsible
Legendary Hero
-ing yummy foods
posted April 07, 2002 04:55 PM

...whoa, hehe I'm starting to see why nobody used to like to read my long posts...yet, not only is it a long and tedious project, but it actually makes some sense!
____________
This space for rent.

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Tristan
Tristan


Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
posted April 07, 2002 05:23 PM

Ok, I don't have the game either (yet), but I seem to remember that with H3 some of the towns that seemed weakest at first ended up being the best later.  My question is, was it programmed this way on purpose, the "weak" towns are strong if you can find the right strategy?

I also think only being able to hire one hero per week from each tavern may make my idea of using creatures alone as early scouts more valuable.  Yes, you will want to work towards a 2 hero per army idea later on, but it will take some time.

As to long posts, I am pretty sure Hydra and some others know my feelings on that, I love them.  And since you don't have the game, why not post about it.  My worry is what will happen once you get it!    I would probably write more long posts about H4 if I had the time, but once I get it...

My major concern is in the multiplay, for one thing it seems like the games will take significantly longer, and right now I can't find the time for a 2-3 hour H3 game.  Perhaps there will be ways to fix this in making the multiplay maps?

Well thats all I can think of now...

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Oldtimer
Oldtimer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
posted April 07, 2002 08:33 PM

If you have necro at the bottom of the power rankings I have to assume you are not playing the game.  Once you have GM necro the vampires just keep coming, they are hard to kill and well placed death magic hurts the ability for the opponant to do damge.

The preserve seems to be the weakest town by far, I have been playing hotseat with a friend and even if you have superior forces the preserve just can't survive contact with the enemy.  It might be that they don't have enough slots for the creatures they can produce, but it is a case of strength through superior firepower.

The best tactic for the barbarian is to grab up a knight and then have the tactics bonuses while the barbarian keeps powering up the combat skills.  The barbarian troops become very tough when aided by tactics.
____________
<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>

"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."

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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted April 07, 2002 08:36 PM

Quote:
...not going to put any of you through the torture of reading another long post, but in case you were wondering, here's my current ranking system as well...which doesn't exactly fit in well with Hydra's opinion

1) Preserve
2) Haven
3) Asylum
4) Academy
5) Stronghold
6) Necropolis



And here is the *correct* ranking system:

1) order
2) chaos
3) death
4) life
5) might
6) nature

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Nebuka
Nebuka


Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
posted April 07, 2002 10:39 PM

Quote:

And here is the *correct* ranking system:

1) order
2) chaos
3) death
4) life
5) might
6) nature


Still have to play with Asylum and Preserve but everything else on this list is exactly how I see it...
____________

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zedrin
zedrin


Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
posted April 07, 2002 10:57 PM

I've been playing the game for 10 days now, with all castles and with all combinations. Had a number of hotseat games too, all of which ending in defeat for either me or my oponent simply because we knew how to counter each other's creature line-up.

That's the problem with hotseat... I can't wait for some real multiplayer challenges.

For example playing preserve, my oponent being stronghold, i went all magic, since phoenixes stood no chance in a toe to toe battle with his "pit bred" behemoths... Although if he had gone the thunder way i would've been lost...

As life playing against order I chose knights/monks/pikeman against his mechanical dragons/ nagas/mages... and i lost.

What i'm trying to say is that contrary to heroes 3 there are a lot more solutions to a problem... In lan/net play you will be hard pressed to make a decision since your oponnent may choose to foil your plans for a grand finale by choosing the fatal combination to use against your army... There is no turning back once you made a decision, and if it is wrong then you have been defeated even before combat starts...

Well having ranted as much as i pleased here are my castle rankings:

Chaos
Preserve
Life/Death
Might/Order

I still need to decide on the last four .
____________
"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth

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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted April 08, 2002 12:49 AM

Quote:
Chaos
Preserve
Life/Death
Might/Order

I still need to decide on the last four .


Well..  if you build genies and gold golems instead of nagas and mages, order goes from being last to being first.
Genies are almost too good, anything with less speed than 13 is cake with genies and a decent shooter. And since they can hire both a necromancer and a priest they make one heck of a town.



I dont know what preserve is doing up that high.. but what the hey, many ppl like it for the feel of it and not the power.



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tortoise
tortoise


Known Hero
Master of Reptiles.
posted April 08, 2002 04:24 AM

You guys aren't giving the proper respect to necropolis imo....      The only problems i have with necro is their exceptionally snowTY! LV 1 AND LV 2 UNITS! they all suck! their real power is 3-4. where their abilities and decent stats can overpower alot of other lv 3-4s



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All living things have a history. The history of the Tortoise is long and rich.


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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted April 08, 2002 10:22 AM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 8 Apr 2002

Miscellaneous views on Towns and Strategies

For those who do not wish to post anything positive: If you don't have something constructive to say, do not say it. It is not my fault that people read my posts. Bjorn said it in a wise tone?
I would like to second that, if you're not content with reading a post as long as it is, do not bother! We each have our own styles, and I happen to write longer posts. Just as you, Bjorn like to talk about strategies, and Stiven wishes to hold the highest rank among 'tossers' with his posts.

The wisest comment by far, was the one made by Oldtimer and Tristan. I would just like to comment on those two posts, and share with you my thoughts.

"My question is, was it programmed this way on purpose, the "weak" towns are strong if you can find the right strategy?"

I don't believe that there are any 'weak' towns. For me, they are either all strong, or all weak. It depends on what strategy one takes when utilising these towns. They are pretty much all of equal strength, but it may take people new to the game more time to develop ways of winning with certain towns. One cannot expect all towns to be compatible with their same strategy. I believe in order to be successful at a strategy game such as Heroes IV, it is imperative to develop individual strategies for towns. My personal opinon on town strength is derived from how well I believe I can operate it. When I first played Heroes I, I moulded my strategies around the Warlock castle, as it contained my favourite creature. Then I progressed through the series of Heroes continuously playing the Warlock and Dungeon, and Fortress towns. Which I believe, have similar strategies.
<=Bjorn, and others please stop reading here. Other members who wish to continue, please do.=>
Therefore, it is natural for me to say that I believe the Asylum will be the most successful town in Heroes IV. Other people, such as Vladpopsecu79 may think that the Necropolis are the best, as it is a town he probably utilises the most.

"I also think only being able to hire one hero per week from each tavern may make my idea of using creatures alone as early scouts more valuable."

I agree on this comment, expect if one begins with the Asylum, it would be a waste of a skill to not utilise the stealth ability that the Thief possesses. The stealth skill can reveal much more of the map in earlier times, which leaves it more open for further explorations later in the game.
I believe one hero is adequate for early to mid stages of the game, until it is vital that two heroes need be placed together to extract the bonuses from both.

"but once I get it... "

.It could be a different story.
Obviously people who own the game aren't as enthusiastic about it as myself, when I do not even own it! Maybe it might not be worth talking about it then, Bjorn.

"If you have necro at the bottom of the power rankings I have to assume you are not playing the game."

I strongly agree with this comment from Oldtimer. As I said, the Necropolis have come a long way from the days of Heroes III. The ever-present bonus of the Necromancy skill have kept the Necropolis from falling behind other towns such as Warlock and Wizard, in Heroes II terms. Although, it Heroes IV, not only do they possess the skill of Necromancy, the addition of the powerful Vampire to the team has granted it even more strength. Not only this, but the Necromancy, at GrandMaster level also effects Vampires! This gives them great strength, creature and skill wise. Their Death magic can be comparable to Asylum's Chaos magic, but it only effects non-undead creatures and heroes, it also has other small differences.

"The preserve seems to be the weakest town by far, I have been playing hotseat with a friend and even if you have superior forces the preserve just can't survive contact with the enemy."

I do in fact believe that the Preserve is a weak town, but I don't think it is the weakest. Their level 4 creatures are both flying, and are similar, so it doesn't give them strength there, but the ability to summon powerful creatures like the Mantis and Waspwort, I would think, would save them from last place. Also, their hero skills are unique, but serve the Preserve well in tight situations. A thread, made by Jondifool, suggests that the Preserve aren't too bad, but I have my doubts, as Oldtimer does.

"The barbarian troops become very tough when aided by tactics."

Yes, indeed they would. If one can develop their defensive side, along with the attacking skills they already possess, Barbarians can become a formidable force, even with the lack of magic usage.

"And here is the *correct* ranking system:"

I am not sure how you wish to define correct, but I hope it isn't the rankings of towns; unless it is official.

"Well.. if you build genies and gold golems instead of nagas and mages, order goes from being last to being first."

I am really not sure how a town can go from last to first with the choice of two creatures. It is a known fact that, later in the game Heroes are very influential towards the army and the strength of the kingdom. Although, I do agree that the two replacement choices are in fact better than the previous two choices.
I also believe that Zedrin was referring to that particular combat against the Preserve, and therefore having no relevance to your comment on Order being higher.

"I dont know what preserve is doing up that high.."

It seems that at least three of us now believe that the Preserve isn't faring too well as Heroes IV castle rankings decisions are made. Although, these opinions may change when people begin testing the towns and figuring out strategies for them.

Thankyou, all for your replies.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.

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