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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Global warming
Thread: Global warming This thread is 9 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT»
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 30, 2018 01:04 AM

But I have no idea if he is a global warming denier and I don't care much about neither. What I am worrying about is how you can have such a critical attitude against USA because they quit Paris accords but remain totally indifferent when told that China and India are not concerned by any restriction until 2030, and also that Africa population will nearly double in the next decades. You can't say on one side "we are near extinction because we pollute as hell" and then let the biggest polluters continue without blinking.

I already told my position previously in this thread but I never got a satisfactory answer. And, btw, saying Trump is my "anti-immigration" hero is gross misinformation, once more. You realize that the major problem we have is illegal immigration, right? Words matter.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 30, 2018 01:26 AM

artu said:
even banning the word climate change is not a significant part of the issue,


Well, I read it until the end and it says they had same attitude in the last 5 years. They banned same words in 2014, under Obama, so it looks to me more like an internal choice within DEP rather than some evil decision of POTUS.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 30, 2018 01:34 AM
Edited by artu at 01:45, 30 Jun 2018.

His actions deny it beyond any reasonable doubt. So does some of his tweets, if I remember correctly. Why would you appoint someone who bans the word “climate change” to such a position, if you have an intention to fight global warming, what sense does that make?

And the reason China and India are off the hook until 2030 are because they are developing economies and it is the only way to convince them to jump on ship afterwards. It may not be ideal but it is a negotiation. At least, they dont deny the problem or they dont turn on their word. Now, do I think their economic growth is more important than natural catastrophy, no, but that is why I already said that the capitalist creed of maximizing profit, the never ending goal of perpetual economic growth is the problem and the system produces the same results everywhere. Make no mistake, on this level, capitalism is ideological, it is not pragmatic and as I said, centruies later, this selective blindess to climate change for the sake of economic growth will be seen as one of the most fanatical and suicidal devotions ever. When it comes to Africa, population alone is not a very significant parameter, as of now, most people in Africa dont own cars, they dont use gas or coal as much as people in developed countries, some dont even have access to electricity, their carbon fingerprint is much less than a developed countries citizen. Unlike China or India, this doesnt seem to be changing soon either.

Okay, he is your “anti-illegal-immigration hero” then, happy? The point is, you always go easy on Trump, to the degree of objecting to people who justifiably dont on other issues, only because you sympathize with his politics about immigration. Had Trump had opposite views on illegal immigration, you wouldnt object my “hitting him” about his politics on global warming.

Edit: Obama signed the deal Trump tore up. And everything during the time of his administration may not be his preference, there is the senate, I’m sure lots of compromise and bargaining between Democrats and Republicans take place. Trump, on the other hand, we know he personally has a crusade against climate change regulations and he is directly connected to oil and coal industries financially.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 30, 2018 02:12 AM

artu said:

Okay, he is your “anti-illegal-immigration hero” then, happy? The point is, you always go easy on Trump, to the degree of objecting to people who justifiably dont on other issues, only because you sympathize with his politics about immigration.


Happy of what? That law is respected?

Unless many here, my general attitude vs politicians starts from/with respect, you won't hear from me your usual platitudes - "as bad as a politician can be" - on Macron, Hollande, Sarkozy, Trump or any other (except merkel) because I see all of them wakening every day at 5AM then working like mad until 1AM, over and over, and I genuinely believe each of them tries to do his best to serve his country, then puts considerable amounts of energy in. It is an insane way of life. With Merkel, however I had a huge problem after her selfish decision to open doors to 1 millions and a half of "refugees"; while I can understand Germany's effort for redemption, there were basically no borders with them so all those people are now flooding around. Illegally.

artu said:
And the reason China and India are off the hook until 2030 are because they are developing economies and it is the only way to convince them to jump on ship afterwards. It may not be ideal but it is a negotiation. At least, they dont deny the problem or they dont turn on their word.
 

So they don't deny the problem but don't give a sh*t about neither, right? That reminds me why the left is so hypocrite, your actions can be as bad as possible, it matters only what you say. Look, this is straw argument, China and India are not yesterday born nations. This is like forcing the best students in the class to wait for the bad ones, this is not equality but preferential attitude. China and India had their chances, and if the climate change is so articulated as you keep saying, I see no reason to give to such enormous polluters a free pass for smoking out our lungs. But of course, me and you we know that no matter of what we say or do, they will continue, even after 2030, so we keep covering this with political correctness and lefty arguments.

artu said:
Edit: Obama signed the deal Trump tore up.


Yep, so your whole point of bashing trump sunk. Next time read carefully what you link.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 30, 2018 02:39 AM
Edited by Galaad at 02:55, 30 Jun 2018.

Salamandre said:
my general attitude vs politicians starts from/with respect, you won't hear from me your usual platitudes - "as bad as a politician can be" - on Macron, Hollande, Sarkozy, Trump or any other (except merkel) because I see all of them wakening every day at 5AM then working like mad until 1AM, over and over, and I genuinely believe each of them tries to do his best to serve his country, then puts considerable amounts of energy in.


Dude, really? Sarkozy and Hollande have damaged France in such a way we have no diplomatic weight any longer, and Macron is following their footsteps 100%. Right now we're basically reduced as US slaves, Assad even said these words exactly sending back his légion d'honneur. Sarkozy, Hollande and now Macron are not stupid so it's not incompetence, they are deliberately and actively harming their country. From 5AM to 1AM, they are traitors to the nation.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 30, 2018 02:40 AM
Edited by artu at 02:42, 30 Jun 2018.

1- It is beyond obvious, the phrase, “happy?” there, indicates that the important part is not calling Trump your “anti-immigration hero” or “anti-illegal-immigration hero” but pointing out you are not objective about him overall because of his specific views on immigration. Stop being a demagouge.

2- It is not about giving China or India “a free pass” but meeting in the middle, and them asking for time is not exactly “not giving a snow” either. Neither China nor India are some backwater country such as Syria, you are not in a position to give or not give them a free pass. You HAVE TO convince them. So, if in order to do that, you’ll have to be flexible enough to wait till 2030, that is still better than them not participating in the regulations at all.

3- WTF are you talking about? Obama signed up the Paris Treaty, Trump backed down. Meanwhile, my link was about U.S. Department of Agriculture (that is a federal institution) banning the word “climate change” by a person directly appointed by Trump administration and you linked some Florida state law from Obama period. Florida Law is not directly controlled by Obama, you do realize U.S. is a federation, not a nation-state such as France, right?


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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 30, 2018 10:15 AM

Galaad said:
Dude, really? Sarkozy and Hollande have damaged France in such a way we have no diplomatic weight any longer, and Macron is following their footsteps 100%. Right now we're basically reduced as US slaves, Assad even said these words exactly sending back his légion d'honneur. Sarkozy, Hollande and now Macron are not stupid so it's not incompetence, they are deliberately and actively harming their country. From 5AM to 1AM, they are traitors to the nation.


Ok, who you voted then?

Saying that I respect them doesn't mean I agree with all decisions, you guys are either adoration, either hate. Sure, I would prefer Macron to make more efforts towards culture, education and retirement funds, the three things he damages the most but I also appreciate a long time expected sane speech on African relations, a school reform where writing and counting is again at top of priorities, then somehow a more realistic approach on mass immigration. But off topic, if want to talk about make a topic and we discuss.

artu said:
1- It is beyond obvious, the phrase, “happy?” there, indicates that the important part is not calling Trump your “anti-immigration hero” or “anti-illegal-immigration hero” but pointing out you are not objective about him overall because of his specific views on immigration. Stop being a demagouge.


You are the Sheikh of demagogues, always pointing that a "sane and educated" person can't think this or that then bringing the pack logic to help your arguments (the pack being 3 persons here, you, JJ and Minion sometimes). How I am not objective? Show. Until now all you post is propaganda, you deliberately skip core details which debunk entirely your analysis.

artu said:
A truckload of indisputable scientific evidence suggest we are on the brink of a sixth mass extinction, wars, famine, massive social conflict which cant be compared to anything civilization faced before awaits us within decades.


and then:

artu said:
And the reason China and India are off the hook until 2030 are because they are developing economies and it is the only way to convince them to jump on ship afterwards.


Those two phrases contradict. China and India are not two words, they mean roughly 3 billion of people who will happily rape any fossil then pollute like hell in the next 25 years, not being accountable in the Paris accords. And then, who will come out of the bush and join the party? Africa of course, where the population is estimated to double, yet I see zero demographics propositions and politics about. And what is your solution to this? Replace Trump, wow, smart and adapted, he is the evil. And if someone blinks to your conclusions, he certainly defends Trump, which is for you, guys, unbearable. But the best part is to come:

artu said:
At least, they dont deny the problem or they dont turn on their word.


This is so naive. We give them a free pass for 20 years, of course they will say anything to please you. If we said to them "hold a moment, the situation is disastrous, we need all to put in some efforts", China and India will answer "f**k you, we have 1,5 billion people to manage, period".

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Neraus
Neraus


Promising
Legendary Hero
Pizza Nazi
posted June 30, 2018 10:43 AM
Edited by Neraus at 10:44, 30 Jun 2018.

artu said:
Fossil fuel industry buys out politics, Russia, Norway, Italy, everwhere the system produces the same sell out and the same selective blindness by the masses


Wait what? I can get that Russia and Norway will tend to a more fossil fuel based economy (they are the biggest European producers after all) but Italy? If anything it's the opposite for us, the Five Stars movement, one of the ruling parties, has always been for a less fossil fuel based economy, at one point in the past they even proposed a "happy ungrowth" (I don't really know if there's an English equivalent for the concept) which was basically making society regress to a more eco-friendly way of life by abandoning some parts of modern technology. The other ruling party, the League, doesn't have a clear position AFAIK, but their main goal in our economical growth is by bolstering our agriculture, which is also one of their main contentions with the EU. If there are politicians that were bought out they are part of the opposition now, so the tycoons have lost part of their influence.

If that was referring to the referendum we had regarding oil platform in our seas that was a big farce full of disinformation, that referendum simply would prohibit further probes, while maintaining the current platforms, and wouldn't stop their current activities, moreover we also made another one of our idiotic decisions and sold out a part of our waters to the French, waters that had oil in them, so the pollution would come from French waters anyway, all in all it wasn't a fully thought out proposal and it was voted out.

Lastly, in an ironic twist of fate, the mafia has been investing a lot in renewable energies, as it receives European funding, it's not surprising we have created the term eco-mafia, of course such plants are done in the cheapest way possible but it's their last investment.

So yeah, I don't really understand why we are among the countries bought off by the oil companies, and I sure hope it's not because our government is making a reversal on the policies of the last twenty years, since I'm sick and tired of hearing the most various accusations only because our interior minister and vice-prime minister is a populist that wants to close our ports.

I'll read the rest of the thread later, but this is my main problem.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 30, 2018 12:49 PM
Edited by Galaad at 12:51, 30 Jun 2018.

Salamandre said:
Saying that I respect them doesn't mean I agree with all decisions, you guys are either adoration, either hate.


I let the context in my quote but the point I was addressing was

Quote:
I genuinely believe each of them tries to do his best to serve his country


It's like the state propaganda still got to you in some way.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 30, 2018 01:26 PM

@Sal

So, in order to pull "no, no, you are the demagogue, not me" all you can find is a forced contradiction. And then you pathetically try to create some "alternative truth" universe where I am even the sheikh of demagogues, lol, that's a first! Funny how people even make fun of my explaining things rationally, one by one, though. So maybe, rather than me making demagogy, it's something else: Engaging yourself in so much alt-right rhetoric must have corrupted your gray cells and integrity way beyond my imagination.

1- Mass extinctions happen in thousands of years, being on the brink of a mass extinction and giving China and India 15 years industrial immunity is not contradictory, and even if it was, I already said the situation wasn't ideal and as I am tired of repeating, the West (or me!) does NOT control China or India, if that's all they agree to, then, you will have to compromise to keep them on board. Or maybe, you'd prefer declaring war on those "billion population" countries. This has nothing to do with and not an excuse to denying global warming yourself and put in key positions oil company men who "fight the fight" against global warming though.  

2- I replied to all the non-sense you said afterwards already, point by point, including how I didn't reduce anything into Trump, only a person emotionally obsessed with defending him no matter what would interpret that post like that, to begin with. Oh, btw, JJ and Minion mostly don't even consider you worth replying to anymore, I am the only person left who hangs around in the OSM and engages in serious arguments with you, the rest (and not just JJ or minion) are fed up with your constant tsunami of logical fallacies and emotionally driven manipulations and they declared that openly. No one else called me a demagogue though. And it requires a form of lunacy to perceive "me, jj and sometimes minion" (what a crowd!) as "the pack" while yourself as the defender of objective truth.


@Neraus

Check history of the company, Eni
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 30, 2018 02:50 PM

Galaad said:
It's like the state propaganda still got to you in some way.


I don't have a TV so I manually pick on the net what to look at. I am quite aware of the educational reforms as we receive many details on and even started to apply them, so there are good things in. I listened to his African speeches and found that he wisely broke a long time needed taboo about colonialism responsibility and when it should end. I heard his speeches on mass immigration and there is a big improvement over the last 2 presidents. Of course there are things he struggles at, but reforming french is a very difficult task, there is much resistance at all social floors.


@artu,

Oh boy, here we are, again. There was a time when we could discuss and exchange, before you become a snowflake buffoon using the usual leftist tactics, as bullying and attacking characters. I mean, look how you flourish each of your posts:

artu said:
you come in defense of your “anti-immigration hero” every friggin’ time his name gets mentioned in the OSM, extreme majority of sane and educated people will keep on bashing him.


artu said:
Engaging yourself in so much alt-right rhetoric must have corrupted your gray cells and integrity way beyond my imagination.


artu said:
only a person emotionally obsessed


artu said:
your constant tsunami of logical fallacies and emotionally driven manipulation


That is attacking someone's character without justification. When someone labels you a bad human being because they disagree with you, this is called bullying, which is being nasty. This is what makes leftists leftists: an unearned sense of moral superiority over others. And if they can instill that sense of moral superiority in others by making you the bad guy, they will. Good job, you framed yourself.

The problem with that, concerning you especially, is that I can easily debunk the fraud. First, I NEVER start posts about sensible subjects but rather respond when you make one, so calling backfiring an "emotional obsession" is absurd.

Now, about me being a sane and educated person - which you clearly and repeatedly contested, it would not look nice for you at all if we indeed moved on that criteria ground. Why should I calmly accept all those slanders coming from a middle-life man who is still resources ransacking his mum and dad, is unable to get a job and feels so ego-satisfied when chewing online same propaganda driven banalities about supposed populism, alt-right, nationalism, fascism and other worthless misrepresentations of the reality without any substantial background? Well, that's enough I think.  

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 30, 2018 03:59 PM
Edited by artu at 16:02, 30 Jun 2018.

First, you take a more than justifiable critic of Trump, try to excuse him with some shallow whataboutism, take a post about the system and try to caricaturize it as "evil Trump destroys the world by himself." Then, when confronted with this, that your motive is to always excuse Trump on any subject irrationally because you are emotionally driven to do that for his stand on immigration (and you defending him by excusing him with such whataboutisms is indeed consistent to the point of obsessive), you  cherry-pick a "happy?" out of context and try to shift the subject to illegal immigration and decent politicians etc. Calling this demagogy is not a personal attack, it really is demagogy. Now, you again deform the context: What I said was you trying to excuse Trump no matter what was in vain and that majority of sane and educated people will not excuse him in such a way. Why, because, they are not obsessed with immigration the way you are and for them, Trump doesn't get a "get out of jail free card" for anything he does. Trump deserves to be bashed by anybody who does not have a unhealthy tendency to excuse him, you do, not because you are uneducated, but because you are attached to his politics elsewhere. And again, most sane and educated people aren't.

Everything I mention about you (AFTER, you, calling the above pack mentality and non-sensical snow like that in a very pejorative tone)  is STILL related to your arguments though, they are not irrelevant attacks or even attacks, they relate your personal stance to how you build your arguments, yes, but that is because you are (although quite unaware of yourself) extremely subjective, emotional, politically fueled with insubstantial "SJWs and leftist buffoons" rhetoric, and your whole position itself is personal, not analytical. You refuse to comprehend very simple answers, push them out of context and desperately try to defend the undefendable. Issues in this world are not chess pieces between the left and the right although you reduce every single one of them into that. That is shallow and your reaction to anything you relate to leftism comes from nothing but a personal frustration towards it. So, it becomes impossible not to relate your arguments to your personality.  

On the other hand, bringing up me not having a job (I can, I just don't need to, btw) is an actual personal attack, unfortunately for you, it doesn't hit the target. Had I cared about social prestige of a job, I wouldn't choose this road anyway.  
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 30, 2018 04:42 PM

Week-end so I have time

artu said:
First, you take a more than justifiable ctiric of Trump, try to excuse him with some shallow whataboutism, take a post about the system and try to caricaturize it as "evil Trump destroys the world by himself."


No, you make a catastrophic-toned post about how our world is on the wedge of destruction, name vaguely some countries and then name Trump precisely, not USA but Trump. Then I suggest to you do indeed forget emotionally driven obsession and look at big actors on the scene: China, India and tomorrow Africa.

artu said:
Then, when confronted with this, that your motive is to always excuse Trump on any subject irrationally because you are emotionally driven to do that for his stand on immigration (and you defending him by excusing him with such whataboutisms is indeed consistent to the point of obsessive)


What you are unable to understand is the principle behind his politics. I don't care much about his immigration politics - btw they are same as ours in Europe, but about how he is listening to his base and fulfilling the promises he was elected on. Its an honor matter. Its you who come out of nowhere with his immigration politic while I speak exclusively about climate change, getting out from Paris accords was in his program, period. If Trump does nasty things, I will allegedly come out from my coconut and criticize him. However, you guys never stop bashing him for every fly squirming around your head so speaking objectively to you is no longer possible. You remember Pierre and the wolf story?


artu said:
you  cherry-pick a "happy?" out of context and try to shift the subject to illegal immigration and decent politicians etc. Calling this demagogy is not a personal attack, it really is demagogy.


No, its you who suggest I am his manservant because I like his immigration politic. It is not about immigration, but about illegal immigration - which means respect of the law and protecting citizens, this is like accusing a guy who likes young women as being pedophile. Is shifting the sense of words.


artu said:
Now, you again deform the context: What I said was you trying to excuse Trump no matter what was in vain and that majority of sane and educated people will not excuse him in such a way.


No, I didn't excuse him, quote where I did. I said his political decisions are a drop in the ocean when thinking big, at planetary scale. This is not excusing Trump, but saying you look in the wrong direction and nitpicking.


artu said:
Because, they are not obsessed with immigration the way you are and for them, Trump doesn't get a "get out of jail free card" for anything he does.


Oh boy, again. Dude, for the last time, in Europe we have a big problem with Islam taking over and we try to have serious migrational reforms, as 99% of the migrants knocking at our doors as muslims. This specific immigration lasted now for 40 years and people is exhausted to see every government falling to fix the issue. Listening to a major problem is not being obsessed, but being seriously concerned. Stop reading exclusive snowflake press where "anti-islamisation" is equal to "xenophobia". It isn't.


artu said:
Trump deserves to be bashed by anybody who does not have a unhealthy tendency to excuse him, you do, not because you are uneducated, but because you are attached to his politics elsewhere. And again, most sane and educated people aren't.


Is that some argument? No, he doesn't have to be bashed, nobody has, unless there is a reason to bash. I bash him for not building the wall quick enough, I already posted that. Now give me another reason he didn't fulfill what he promised and I will bash again. Ant btw, what "most sane and educated people" means? That guy got elected democratically, the majority is on his side, period. Stop reducing the world at your HC bubble buddies.


artu said:
Everything I mention about you (AFTER, you, calling the above pack mentality and non-sensical snow like that in a very pejorative tone)


I called the pack attitude because you first claimed that most sane and educated people here will think your way. You gave the pack argument, that's all, don't shift my answer to what it wasn't.


artu said:
and your whole position itself is personal, not analytical.


Really?

artu: we are doomed, planet is dying. Trump.
me: dude, look at China and India, then Africa. Those will hurt the planet the most.
artu: you are emotionally driven and come to defend your anti immigration hero, stop logical fallacies.

...

artu said:
your reaction to anything you relate to leftism comes from nothing but a personal frustration towards it. So, it becomes impossible not to relate your arguments to your personality.


No, every time you answer you feel entitled to recall that people not agreeing with you are stupid, uneducated and obsessed. This is a left tactic, no arguments to defend so lets just attack the guy. Thats all I'm saying.

artu said:
Had I cared about social prestige of a job, I wouldn't choose this road anyway.


You don't understand what is behind, this is not about prestige, but about perception. Not being a burden to society but rather making constant efforts to improve it, and this is what working means, is changing and smoothing out the angles and perspectives. When you put constant efforts into some labor, day after day, your views about how the state should protect and reward you change.  

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Erwin Data Modeler
posted June 30, 2018 04:50 PM

Salamandre said:
Look, this is straw argument, China and India are not yesterday born nations.


hear hear of that bravo bravo, I also shall stick it to my Chairman Berriker's Little Red Book cheers lol
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted June 30, 2018 06:25 PM

I didnt single out Trump in that post, I specified him. The reason for that is already in the post but since it seems that has to be spelled out in more detail for you, I’ll do that and reply to the rest later tonight. Now, I got stuff to deal with about vases I placed in the street to prevent trucks crushing in my balcony constantly, later.
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Neraus
Neraus


Promising
Legendary Hero
Pizza Nazi
posted June 30, 2018 07:43 PM

artu said:
@Neraus

Check history of the company, Eni


Well, ENI used to be a national enterprise, so back then it was literally under the government since it was a strategic interest to us a move that was supposed to make us less dependent on the big oil companies of the other nations. After all in the 20s we established our own national owned oil company especially because there were big tycoons meddling with our energetic needs. Back then it was the AGIP, and it was one of the points of proudness of fascism, as it allowed us to be independent from the rest of the western economies.
Now ENI has been partly privatized, but our finance minister has special powers over it, since it's a strategic business for our country, so my point is still valid, since the government is not friendly to big oil tycoons I don't get why we're lumped in with other countries that have their politicians corrupted by tycoons.

If we're talking about the ecological sustainability of their production it's another pair of socks, but at that point the finger should also be pointed at the UK and France, that "saintly" couple that have ruined Europe time and time again.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 01, 2018 04:33 AM
Edited by artu at 04:35, 01 Jul 2018.

@ Neraus

Go back to my first post, instead of Italy, I could have given France or UK as an example:

“Fossil fuel industry buys out politics, Russia, Norway, Italy, everwhere the system produces the same sell out and the same selective blindness by the masses: They’ll figure something out somehow.”


@Sal

So why did I specify Trump? Because China or India or Tatooine basically say this: Hey, dont blame the player, blame the game. We need time in this game you enforced us in, this is the free market right? Then let us finally have our chance at it, or is it not so “free” now that we are entering the scene? Global warming or not, we must have our share!

I dont agree with this because: Okay, fair objection, but WTF is the difference if all of us are gonna choke in some soon to be very ugly planet?

Trump, on the other hand, is  “what global warming, that’s a Chinese hoax my rednecks, now let me be the billionaire, pull a few political “hit songs” and then snow things even more, the industry have my back anyhow.”

This, not only I dont agree with, it disgusts me.

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Neraus
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posted July 01, 2018 11:43 AM

So that was your conclusion, it wasn't from the guy that held the conference, am I right?

The thing is that I'm starting to see my country being singled out by international commentators, and it's starting to become something done out of spite, it was because of international pressure that we risked remaining without a government for months.
What I was objecting about was our inclusion between the countries where oil companies pay out politicians to get what they want, when we have our own national company, so if there's a problem it's not simply about tycoons.

My country has many faults, such as existing, but I'm not liking this trend of accusations from every side.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 01, 2018 12:48 PM
Edited by artu at 14:27, 01 Jul 2018.

@Neraus

Yes, it is my conclusion. As long as the competition is about economic growth which relies on fossil fuel and the motto is maximize profits, there is no way to prevent anything. I dont think the guy giving the conference would disagree though. It is almost an inevitable conclusion.


@Sal

Ok, and this time I have the time to answer in detail. You can not believe the crap I had to deal with in the last few days.

1- Salamandre: No, you make a catastrophic-toned post about how our world is on the wedge of destruction, name vaguely some countries and then name Trump precisely, not USA but Trump. Then I suggest to you do indeed forget emotionally driven obsession and look at big actors on the scene: China, India and tomorrow Africa.


Tired of repeating this but I name Trump precisely because he is the president of the most powerful country in the world which is also the home of many of those transnational companies and he directly refuses to even acknowledge the problem, he deliberately spreads misinformation, (Imagine the number of people who goes “hey, even the president says there’s no global warming.”), he is directly the servant of oil companies which literally fight awareness on global warming.


2- Salamandre: What you are unable to understand is the principle behind his politics. I don't care much about his immigration politics - btw they are same as ours in Europe, but about how he is listening to his base and fulfilling the promises he was elected on. Its an honor matter. Its you who come out of nowhere with his immigration politic while I speak exclusively about climate change, getting out from Paris accords was in his program, period. If Trump does nasty things, I will allegedly come out from my coconut and criticize him. However, you guys never stop bashing him for every fly squirming around your head so speaking objectively to you is no longer possible. You remember Pierre and the wolf story?

I don’t know where you get your information but presenting a chronic liar as a “man of his word” is straightforward false. Even people who voted for Trump don’t have the face to call him an honest man. And this is exactly what I was talking about, I didn’t bring up immigration, I criticised his denial of global warming, yet, here you were again as his knight in shining armor, saying Trump is just a drop in the ocean, etc, why he is not I explained ten times already. The thing is, when the president of the U.S. ignores such a crucial issue, you don’t call bashing that “taking the wrong direction.” And I am absolutely certain, had Clinton got elected and did the same, and had I mentioned her name, you wouldn’t object, on the contrary, you’d even join the chorus. Trump is quite the media figure and his name gets mentioned in various debates, and no matter what, you always defend him. This is because you are attached to him for his stance on illegal (happy ) immigration.


3- Salamandre: No, its you who suggest I am his manservant because I like his immigration politic. It is not about immigration, but about illegal immigration - which means respect of the law and protecting citizens, this is like accusing a guy who likes young women as being pedophile. Is shifting the sense of words. No, I didn't excuse him, quote where I did. I said his political decisions are a drop in the ocean when thinking big, at planetary scale. This is not excusing Trump, but saying you look in the wrong direction and nitpicking.

Already answered above. You excuse him with your consistent whataboutism, I won’t bother to go quote digging on ten more debates where you did the same. But you know I am not making this up.

4- Salamandre: Oh boy, again. Dude, for the last time, in Europe we have a big problem with Islam taking over and we try to have serious migrational reforms, as 99% of the migrants knocking at our doors as muslims. This specific immigration lasted now for 40 years and people is exhausted to see every government falling to fix the issue. Listening to a major problem is not being obsessed, but being seriously concerned. Stop reading exclusive snowflake press where "anti-islamisation" is equal to "xenophobia". It isn't.

Once again, we are NOT discussing immigration, (and I already told you in the past, I got no objection to opposing massive Muslim immigration), saying you excuse Trump because of his stance on illegal immigration is not calling you xenophobic. But you are not just “concerned” either, you are frustrated about the issue, you can be right about something but still be frustrated. Most of the debates you participate in always end up being about immigration somehow, and you rant about it constantly. I repeat, honestly ask yourself this, would you be calling my post “taking the wrong direction” if it was another politician who is soft on illegal immigration.

5- Salamandre: Is that some argument? No, he doesn't have to be bashed, nobody has, unless there is a reason to bash. I bash him for not building the wall quick enough, I already posted that. Now give me another reason he didn't fulfill what he promised and I will bash again. Ant btw, what "most sane and educated people" means? That guy got elected democratically, the majority is on his side, period. Stop reducing the world at your HC bubble buddies.

There is more than enough reason to bash Trump. He constantly lies, to a degree that he doesn’t even care if the lie will blow in his face, he is ignorant on many subjects yet arrogant, he is shallow, he is a populist in the cheapest sense, he doesn’t actually care about the issues he opposes, he just uses them for his power climb. “Sane and educated people” mostly means the ones who can see these, it doesn’t require to be a genius. Trump is not the victim of some overzealous political correctness as you sometimes present him, he is really the worst kind of politician and a sociopath. I don’t know what you mean by reducing the world at my HC buddies, this place is not some progressive haven, it actually has more conservative members than any other forum I participate in.


6- Salamandre: No, every time you answer you feel entitled to recall that people not agreeing with you are stupid, uneducated and obsessed. This is a left tactic, no arguments to defend so lets just attack the guy. Thats all I'm saying.

This is also completely false. I debate with a lot of people, I disagree with a lot of people. The ones I call (or at least imply) stupid would be like 15-20 percent. Also, saying most educated people see Trump for who he really is, isn’t saying everybody who doesn’t, are uneducated. My original sentence was also precise about that, I said majority of educated people. Btw, ad hominem is not “a leftist tactic,”  people from all political views can do it. It just irritates you more when a leftist does, you notice more since you disagree. It’s called selective perception.


7- Salamandre: You don't understand what is behind, this is not about prestige, but about perception. Not being a burden to society but rather making constant efforts to improve it, and this is what working means, is changing and smoothing out the angles and perspectives. When you put constant efforts into some labor, day after day, your views about how the state should protect and reward you change.  

Yes, Sal. I’m sure, me having a 9 to 5 job would improve society like nothing else! Time is precious, and this is a gamble, nothing may come out of it, or something really good can. I made my bet a long time ago, it’s too late to change anyway.
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Salamandre
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posted July 01, 2018 02:50 PM

artu said:
on the contrary, you’d even join the chorus.


Oh no, it is SO much more fun to be against the chorus. I remember markur messaging me 2 months ago and congratulating me for firmly standing against the "usual chorus" (who that could be? ). However I apologize for some ... hum... quarrelsome adjectives which came out too fast as result of heated escalations. Once temperature is down, they look stupid and I am ashamed.

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