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| Thread: H7 Metamagic - Wouldn't this be better? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted September 07, 2015 02:39 PM |
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That could work. Make "wisdom" a mana skill and add sorcery. That way you have the magic equivalents of defense/offence  .
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 07, 2015 02:46 PM |
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The devs actually directly disliked the idea of one central magic skill, similar to wisdom. As they said, it would be a must have skill for all magic users.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted September 07, 2015 02:47 PM |
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Knowledge is already underpowered as it is. There's no need for a skill that increases mana too (there can be for extra mana and extra mana regen perks though)
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted September 07, 2015 02:51 PM |
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Just throwing around ideas. the important part to get out of this is two skills comparable to offense and defense 
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted September 07, 2015 03:09 PM |
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That's what spells are for.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted September 07, 2015 03:26 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Knowledge is already underpowered as it is. There's no need for a skill that increases mana too (there can be for extra mana and extra mana regen perks though)
Knowledge in Heroes VII gives +10 to Mana Points and +2 to Mana Regeneration. I don't think it is underpowered.
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PROJ
Known Hero
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posted September 07, 2015 05:54 PM |
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I really don't understand the dislike for either the magic system or for the random skill wheel. I've tested both and they work out fine; the random skill wheel in practice is really not that far off from homm v, other than you need to get perks before advancing up the mastery levels. People snow about the skill wheel not allowing a hero to take whatever skills he wants, but the game really encourages mixing and matching different factions' heroes, which means in practice I'm rarely pining for an ability that I just can't get.
I still have yet to see much good argumentation to why the magic system is bad. I get that some people dislike the fact that the schools are more generalized (each having stuff like damage spells, damage mitigation, and crowd control), but generalized schools vs. specialized schools is really a matter more of subjective opinion than hard fact. I think it works fine to have schools that are more similar with some different flavors in terms of perks and specialty spells.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 07, 2015 07:40 PM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 07 Sep 2015. |
Edited by TD at 19:41, 07 Sep 2015.
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@Proj
You are right, h7 random system is just like in the past games if you didn't understand the system at all. The difference is that h7 is full random and only way to control it at all is to keep buying all the abilities in skills. In the past you could control it by upgrading skill when you didn't get the new skill you wanted. Or to expand that in h5 you could get single ability per each skill-level so when you didn't get ability/skill you wanted you could still upgrade the existing skill. Now in h7 you can get "unlimited" number of abilities per skill-level and you must have at least one ability to upgrade the skill which makes it essentially impossible to control. You start of with 2 skills(level 1), meaning you got 6 abilities offered(when getting level 2), often you will want specific ones so chance is 2/6 to get the "right" one. For skill you will have to pick new one because you don't have ability yet. Now as you can calculate the odds of getting "bad" ability offered is 2/3 so let's say we get them as is likely to happen. Ok let's also say we get skill we consider good offered and pick that one since we don't want some crappy ability now(we are now level 2). On next level up you know what happens? You have 3/9 chance to get good ability. So let's say we pick the bad ability we are likely to get offered(we are level 3). So on next level up we will now have chance to get new skill, upgrade our skill and the chance for good ability is now 3/8 so we are still unlikely to get good ability so we upgrade our skill(we are level 4). Next time we get offered 2 new skills and our chance of getting "good" ability is now 4/10(3 novice ones and single expert one). You seeing now how it essentially advances? Your odds of getting the right abilities keep getting worse and worse as game advances. The only way to improve the odds is to keep taking the "bad" abilities and not expanding your skill repertoire. Now this could easily be fixed if they changed the system to work like in h5 so you get single ability per skill-level + no ability requirement for skill-levels, but as is you are likely to end up with far from good heroes. I for example didn't get single good ability when I tried random to level 8 at which point I just quit. The current random system is total abomination compared to past systems. It's not hard to fix(as I suggested), but sadly I just don't see it happening.
As for the magic system: I don't mind that you can't learn level 1 spells without school(don't even care how that is), but the fact that even if I master school I still can't learn level 4 spells is completely idiotic. The system already enforces player to get other schools to boost wisdom, now it literally forces that if you want the best spell of the school you already have mastered.
I also don't see the logic in hero learning spells of schools he is unfamiliar with(you master light and because of that you understand how fire, dark, earth, prime, water and air work to the point of learning most of their spells yet don't know how to cast them right...?). And because most spells have copies or similar spells in other schools those are completely useless because you lack
1) spell-power(you lack wisdom abilities)
2) mastery-levels
3) special effects from abilities that make them different from each other.
4) mana reductions
that compared to the school you already know. So to get real use of these new spells you still gotta learn the school, which in turn makes the whole system pointless. Or rather it's just something to make the game (sighs) even more easier because you can carry the spells for future schools you plan to learn with you before you master them. The whole AK system feels to me like it was designed with academy current racial in mind as it's only faction that gets any real use of the system because they(magic heroes) are bound to get magic schools for abilities anyway and they get the mastery level via racial even if hero could only learn till expert. That being said I don't care if the system stays as long as they lower the level 4 spell requirement to 6 AK-point or allow learning them if you master a school.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 07, 2015 08:52 PM |
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something tells me TD will be the first to buy and play the game
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 07, 2015 10:16 PM |
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Elvin said:
I finally read the masterpost.
You make a fine suggestion for academy but at the same time you condemn everybody else to 1/7 schools, maybe 2/7 if their class can afford a second school. Ak was introduced because original system sucked so this is two steps back.
I don't think it's a matter of condemnation. I think everybody should be able to learn level 1 spells of *any* school, no matter mastery. I think there should be a perk in Paragon that let's you learn spells one level higher than you normally could. That would allow you to learn level 1 and 2 spells from any school with this perk - that is for me a perfectly reasonable compromise. You could even add this effect also to the GM Paragon ability, so that you would have this in total:
Arcane Intuition (paragon level 2 perk)
Allows hero to learn spells one level higher than his mastery would normally allow.
Arcane Excellence (paragon level 2 perk)
Allows hero to cast any spell he knows with one level higher mastery than he normally would.
Master Of Magic (paragon level 4 perk)
Allows hero to learn spells one level higher and cast them with mastery one level higher than he normally would.
This would result in the following results with regards to schools hero doesn't know:
* Hero without any Paragon perks: Can cast level 1 spells of any school at untrained rank.
* Hero with Arcane Intuition: Can cast level 1 and 2 spells of any school at untrained rank.
* Hero with Arcane Excellence: Can cast level 1 spells of any school at novice rank.
* Hero with both Arcane Intuition and Arcane Excellence: Can cast level 1 and 2 spells of any school at novice rank.
* Hero with both Arcane Intuition, Arcane Excellence and Master Of Magic: Can cast level 1, 2 and 3 spells of any school at expert rank.
You'd still need to learn the appropriate school to get a) master rank and b) learn level 4 spells, but apart from that, you'd be well covered by the Paragon skill.
I'd probably decouple Metamagic completely from this.
Elvin said:
I have a question for everyone. How many of you hated H2 magic system where spell skills were not part of the system? Did you mind learning skills from all schools then?
I think H2 system is very passé. H2 spell system didn't have any spell mastery levels, and for me that needs to be retained.
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What will happen now?
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 07, 2015 10:27 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
something tells me TD will be the first to buy and play the game
something else tells me that will be you lol
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PROJ
Known Hero
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posted September 08, 2015 01:43 AM |
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TD said:
@Proj
You are right, h7 random system is just like in the past games if you didn't understand the system at all. The difference is that h7 is full random and only way to control it at all is to keep buying all the abilities in skills. In the past you could control it by upgrading skill when you didn't get the new skill you wanted. Or to expand that in h5 you could get single ability per each skill-level so when you didn't get ability/skill you wanted you could still upgrade the existing skill. Now in h7 you can get "unlimited" number of abilities per skill-level and you must have at least one ability to upgrade the skill which makes it essentially impossible to control. You start of with 2 skills(level 1), meaning you got 6 abilities offered(when getting level 2), often you will want specific ones so chance is 2/6 to get the "right" one. For skill you will have to pick new one because you don't have ability yet. Now as you can calculate the odds of getting "bad" ability offered is 2/3 so let's say we get them as is likely to happen. Ok let's also say we get skill we consider good offered and pick that one since we don't want some crappy ability now(we are now level 2). On next level up you know what happens? You have 3/9 chance to get good ability. So let's say we pick the bad ability we are likely to get offered(we are level 3). So on next level up we will now have chance to get new skill, upgrade our skill and the chance for good ability is now 3/8 so we are still unlikely to get good ability so we upgrade our skill(we are level 4). Next time we get offered 2 new skills and our chance of getting "good" ability is now 4/10(3 novice ones and single expert one). You seeing now how it essentially advances? Your odds of getting the right abilities keep getting worse and worse as game advances. The only way to improve the odds is to keep taking the "bad" abilities and not expanding your skill repertoire. Now this could easily be fixed if they changed the system to work like in h5 so you get single ability per skill-level + no ability requirement for skill-levels, but as is you are likely to end up with far from good heroes. I for example didn't get single good ability when I tried random to level 8 at which point I just quit. The current random system is total abomination compared to past systems. It's not hard to fix(as I suggested), but sadly I just don't see it happening.
This would be more compelling if you actually got the probabilities remotely correct. In your initial example, the probability is not 2/6 to get a "good" perk, it's actually 3/5. Even if the perks that show up in first level are bad and you pick a 3rd skill, the following level still has an approximate .58 probability of getting a "good" perk. I wrote a quick simulation and with a few very conservative assumptions the rate of getting a bad deal on your first level is under 9%. Getting bad rng for your first two levels in a row would clock in at under 0.005 probability. Conversely, getting two good picks in a row is approximately .82 probability. On top of that, you have a pool of five heroes at the start to pick from, so only one or two of them need to hit that probability. I'll reiterate that these are very conservative estimates; in reality it's probably a lot more favorable.
How long did you mess with the random system? I played for many hours with it and I never felt really restricted by it. Sometimes I'd have to go a roundabout ways to get what I really wanted and sometimes it would give me something slightly suboptimal to work with, but isn't that the whole point? The same thing would happen in homm V.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 08, 2015 05:20 AM |
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@Proj You know you actually are right about the initial chance being 3/5 now that I actually looked into it. The chance of getting 2nd good ability is 40% at level 3. If You took initial 3rd skill the chance for good is 21/36= your 58%. Chance for getting next good ability is then about 46% to get 3rd one you want was about 41% I think. The main point holds though, the longer you use the system the less and less likelier you are to get the abilities you want without wasting points on bad abilities too. I also don't know where you got your chance for "bad" deal at level 1 being only 9% as it should be 40% according to my calculations and chance for getting 2nd bad skill(assuming you picked first) is 30%. As for the pool of heroes, most heroes are such trash in comparison to others that you actually only have few heroes per faction that you would play(or I would play ever at least) thus limiting the game even more. I can admit even in h5 there are heroes I would never play or have ever played(aside as random hero) because there are just better options. Though major difference between h5 and h7 heroes is that in h5 you had few heroes you didn't want to play while h7 has few that you want to play.
As for how long I played with random; I only played with random skills on 2 games without getting single good ability on first game which lasted till level 8 and 2nd game which lasted to some level 8-10 too in which I managed to get only single good ability(yes, I apparently am that unlucky). The system just felt so awful compared to old systems that it really discourages me from playing it. Also you never could say how it is the same as in the past games. If you think about h5 for example the chance of you getting specific ability was always 33% or 25% depending skill(it stayed pretty much the same as you advanced in abilities too) AND chance for upgrading skill was 100% in case ability failed AND the chance for getting specific skill was another seperate chance with pre-set value per faction, but in general for first skill (of three) for ultimate the chance was 38%. I mean just think how rarely you got a skill and ability you didn't want, almost never. The system allowed such a good control when you understood it, but it did make you change the order of skills so games didn't feel the same.
And for your question about sub-optimal abilities, why would I play with random when it just feels like handicapping myself with no gain. The system is clearly designed with free-pick in mind to build optimal heroes. If I played H5 with free-pick I would all the same go for same optimal build every game seeing as I don't play small maps. And even if I did, I would just have another optimal path I would go for. And as I said earlier it's not that hard to fix the system so it would work fairly well with random skills, but I just find it unlikely that devs are willing to change the system which is the problem(aside the bad original design philosophy).
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 08, 2015 06:33 AM |
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verriker said:
ChrisD1 said:
something tells me TD will be the first to buy and play the game
something else tells me that will be you lol
When someone shows that much interest,even in critisizing,i think he/she is still interesed nevertheless
I m already down for that game
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