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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: H7 Improvement Discussion
Thread: H7 Improvement Discussion
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted November 21, 2015 12:20 PM

H7 Improvement Discussion

Following Silvermb's brilliant post I would like to have a discussion on what can be done to improve the game. Here is the original post:

Silvermb said:
First off let me start with saying I am a huge fan of the heroes series and I was eagerly waiting for the game to be released I also clocked like 100 hours on the two beta events.

I waited patiently for the game to get fixed and actually be worth playing and not just scratching an nostalgia itch that I am feeling at the moment.
I played the released game at least 200 hours now in total and I have to say the game simply does not deliver. I love the art style and I can see that the game is improving from patch to patch but the AI and balancing is so incredibly poor that I doubt this will ever be a game like heroes 5 or 3 unless some major effort is being made.

Balacing:

I tested all factions with various heroes not just in the single player campagin but also on skirmish maps and randomly generated maps my main observations are:

1) Necromancy skill is cool but way to powerful I end up in month 2 onward with 3000+ skeleton which I just teleport across the battlefield with increased initative and there is no chance that this stack can be stopped.

2) Light magic is WAY to strong:
•Blessed armor should either be not that good or other magic school / battle skills need to have damage absord abilities too. I would give other magic schools like earth magic and water magic damage absorbing abilities and remove it from light magic.
•Retribution is also way to strong. Possible fixes are make ranged units not get damaged by it and half the damage or duration of that spell.

3) Earth magic is not good enough:

•Make regeneration a higher tier spell that can also resurrect units or include a damage absorb ability as a tier 3 or 4 spell.

4) Firewall is overpowered make it slightly smaller and make it a tier 3 spell instead of fireball.

5) Non magic heroes need a way to protect / revive dead creatures otherwise light magic will stay way to strong.

6) Leadership: 5 leadership on each rank is not enough, used to be 10 which is a bit too much but as it stands its not good enough.

•Reinforcements should be a master ability and you can redisgn the ultimate ability.
•Reinforcements also does not work as it should. If creatures die during combat they stay dead afterwards instead of being deducted from the reinforcements units.
•Possible solution is making reinforcements a novice ability and increasing the % of units added increase with each rank.

7) Heroes need better logic and variety fo examle elf heroes have prime magic but not light magic.
•There are almost no heroes with luck or leadership on high ranks but tons with warfare.

8) Small units should benefits less from increased defense and offense otherwise they are simply too strong. 4 weeks worth of champions should easily do away with 4 weeks worth of core creatures. Thats not the case at the moment if both have high defense and attack rating.

9) Elite units are lackluster. I would potentially decrease he growth of core units to make elite units look better.

10) Champion units are great but again the need to benefit more from increased offensive and defensive otherwise they are not as essential for mid/end game as they should be conisdering how expensive they are (which is ok).

11) Vampirism ability works randomly and definitely not as intended. Making two of the coolest units the Hydra and the Vampire useless. Please fix!

It would be great if I could get some comments on this so we can get a discussion going and maybe some of these suggestions that resonate with others will be implemented, because as it stands now the game looks nice and is more or less playable but it lacks any sort of depth/balance.

Kind regards,

Silver -


1) I think we can all agree that necromancy is overpowered.

2) Have not used celestial armour but retribution is pretty op. Esp considering that it can be cast en masse!

3) Earth magic indeed is not good enough.
Undead and constructs are completely immune to their tier 4 spell! Poison spray and cloud should be renamed to acid and affect all non-earth immune units. A tier 4 ignoring 1.5 factions is just bad design.
Stone spikes does good damage but has a lousy area of effect.
Earthquake thankfully deals damage to walkers now but last I recall it still needed some improvement.
Regeneration should either rez and be moved to a higher tier or it should increase unit hp along with the regeneration effect. Atm it's pretty bad.

4) Firewall is ofc overpowered. It should be either nerfed or moved higher up. But for tier 2 I'd recommend that it does not do instant damage AND first turn damage because units receive double damage on their first turn. 5 tiles in a row is probably also too much.

5) I feel first aid warmachines should take the role of reviving or at least protecting might hero units. Except they miserably fail at that. H5 is good for reference, it resurrected a fixed amount of units which was good for earlygame. At the same time I find it a terrible idea to have a different building for offensive and defensive warmachines but if that absolutely has to remain then support warmachines should have a limited resurrection ability that can be used a few times per combat. They could use their other abilities for the rest of the battle.

6) 5 morale per leadership level is indeed not enough, I'd like that 8-10% while removing the starting morale hero bonus. Same with luck.
Unsure about reinforcements.

7) Skill system should definitely swap around some skills or the tiers or some abilities. More importantly it should decrease skill caps and give GM access to more sklls because atm classes have next to no replayability. And ofc magic skills should be blank for the player to choose.

Hero classes feel too similar as they are so re-evaluating some skillwheels would be a good thing.

8-10) Core unit growth should be reduced, champions should be possible to build on week 3. Stats should be re-evaluated.




Some more suggestions of my own to come in the next post, let me know what you think and add more of your own
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted November 21, 2015 12:20 PM
Edited by Elvin at 12:32, 21 Nov 2015.

PART 2

1) Hero movement is irritatingly low and poses many balance issues:

- Pathfinding penalties are even more severe.
- Movement boosters have become too essential.
- Snatch is overpowered. Even more so when pickups take 2 movement while moving 1.

What I would like to see is an increase in regular movement points, a decrease in adv. map location movement boost, an increase in exploration movement points, a reduction in road bonuses and a reduction in rough terrain penalties. Something to take away a bit the focus from exploration abilities and keep the game enjoyable for classes who do not have access to it.

2) Town development does not allow you to be creative and forces you down predetermined paths. This is mostly a side effect of the poorly implemented town level restrictions that should either be lowered or ditched altogether.

3) I would really love an option in game creation to set the level of the starting town: Lvl 1 with no buildings, Lvl 3 with hall of heroes and tier 1 dwelling and Default for whatever setup the mapmaker has it mind. This is something no game in the series has done before and I wonder why. Some fans prefer slow development, others hate it with a passion.

4) Towns with a prebuilt mage guild should NEVER have a specialization!!! Let the player decide for himself when the game starts!!!

5) We need some actual freedom in picking magic skills!! Make magic skills blank in the skillwheel and allow the player to pick which ones he wants to appear in his level ups. For instance wizard class has dark, water, prime and fire. Keep the 4 magic skills open so that he can pick light or earth instead of the preset skills if he so wishes.

6) Another serious issue are the skill caps. I don't mind a few due to class restrictions but when half the skills are capped and 3 skills have a GM there is no freedom of choice to be had. Of course you will go for the skills that feature GMs and of course you will ditch the capped skills except in rare cases like with logistics. This setup has killed ANY kind of replayability a class might have had. So, make all skills available to master(except maybe 1-2 skills if you really have to) and allow half of the skills to have a GM.

7) Flanking is boring and a no brainer. A simple improvement to the system would be if the defender simply turned to face the first attacker of that combat round. Watching two units in battle outflanking one another is killing me.

8) Unit sizes are just bad compared to 3lion's unit size mod. Can't we get an official solution so that we don't have to look for a new mod with every patch?

9) Hero specials need and improvement so as to scale with hero level and/or have more interesting effects. Unit growth specials should be scrapped altogether with passive bonuses in their place.

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MoritzBradtke
MoritzBradtke


Known Hero
posted November 21, 2015 02:29 PM
Edited by MoritzBradtke at 14:32, 21 Nov 2015.

Elvin said:

1) Necromancy skill is cool but way to powerful I end up in month 2 onward with 3000+ skeleton which I just teleport across the battlefield with increased initative and there is no chance that this stack can be stopped.

2) Light magic is WAY to strong:
•Blessed armor should either be not that good or other magic school / battle skills need to have damage absord abilities too. I would give other magic schools like earth magic and water magic damage absorbing abilities and remove it from light magic.
•Retribution is also way to strong. Possible fixes are make ranged units not get damaged by it and half the damage or duration of that spell.

3) Earth magic is not good enough:

•Make regeneration a higher tier spell that can also resurrect units or include a damage absorb ability as a tier 3 or 4 spell.

4) Firewall is overpowered make it slightly smaller and make it a tier 3 spell instead of fireball.

5) Non magic heroes need a way to protect / revive dead creatures otherwise light magic will stay way to strong.

6) Leadership: 5 leadership on each rank is not enough, used to be 10 which is a bit too much but as it stands its not good enough.

•Reinforcements should be a master ability and you can redisgn the ultimate ability.
•Reinforcements also does not work as it should. If creatures die during combat they stay dead afterwards instead of being deducted from the reinforcements units.
•Possible solution is making reinforcements a novice ability and increasing the % of units added increase with each rank.

7) Heroes need better logic and variety fo examle elf heroes have prime magic but not light magic.
•There are almost no heroes with luck or leadership on high ranks but tons with warfare.

8) Small units should benefits less from increased defense and offense otherwise they are simply too strong. 4 weeks worth of champions should easily do away with 4 weeks worth of core creatures. Thats not the case at the moment if both have high defense and attack rating.

9) Elite units are lackluster. I would potentially decrease he growth of core units to make elite units look better.

10) Champion units are great but again the need to benefit more from increased offensive and defensive otherwise they are not as essential for mid/end game as they should be conisdering how expensive they are (which is ok).

11) Vampirism ability works randomly and definitely not as intended. Making two of the coolest units the Hydra and the Vampire useless. Please fix!

It would be great if I could get some comments on this so we can get a discussion going and maybe some of these suggestions that resonate with others will be implemented, because as it stands now the game looks nice and is more or less playable but it lacks any sort of depth/balance.



1) heard of it and if true should be weakend somehow

2) i don't think light Magic is too strong, maybe others like earth are too weak, thats something different, cel. armor is okay, nothing op, retrubition i'm not sure about didnt test it yet

3) Earth magic indeed is not good enough.

Regeneration simply sucks, i dont understand the logic here anyway, vapires can rez Units with life drain, heal can, but Regeneration can't, pls think about it,a Tier 1 spell is used mostly at the start of a map when u have only core Units and core Units has low hp = nothing to Regenerate= bad idea= useless spell, Change it or give Tier 1 earth Magic another spell and buff Regeneration with a added Bonus like more def and call is Stone shield and move it to Tier 3 or 4
too many creatures having resistance against earth and posion is another Problem but i would like a fix for Regeneration first

4) Firewall is quite strong, true, i would also Change it so it doesnt damage instantly

5) might hereos have other Advantages, i woudnt Change anything here

6) i think 5 is fine, that are 15% for master, what is more than u would think, and some like haven can reach the cap too quick anyway

7) i like the skill wheel concept but yeah elves with light Magic would make sense (: and some other stuff maybe, better Balance of some skills in all factions, at last stuff like economy(very important one) i think most parts of the skill wheel are fine but it could Need a little Tuning

8-10) actually, this depends highly on difficulty Settings, on heroic, what is the hardest and what i always Play, u'll loose a lot core Units,especially after thy changed neutral grow rate to 30% on normal means core Units will decrease in size and elites are ure bread and butter because they will survive more often, same for Champions, the've already decreased costs for elites and Champions, they have been more expensive in beta and i think they are fine now


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The_green_drag
The_green_drag


Supreme Hero
posted November 21, 2015 05:22 PM

I'd like it if we could go back to the days when more than half of the ranged units didn't shoot without a ranged penalty. If you're thinking about picking up then full range offense ability, think again. Unless you're the dungeon faction, odds are you can easily get away without wasting a skill point. Because marksmen, archmages, Titans, treants, arch Druids, arch liches,  and centaur marauders already shoot with full range. Meanwhile medusa, abbots, stalkers, gnolls, hunters and cabir have range penalties. Sometimes you have to upgrade the unit to get the full range bonus, which isn't hard considering every elite shooter is just a normal elite, and not expensive to upgrade. As usual, the skills and perks Mostly benefit the cores.  

How can this be improved? My suggestion is to bring back the no melee penalty to give some (not most ) of the ranged units an advantage over others. Let's not give any ranged units a full range shot. Reduce the covered damage reduction. And lastly give the lich the death cloud ability.

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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted November 21, 2015 05:50 PM
Edited by ChrisD1 at 17:54, 21 Nov 2015.

might heroes are ok come on.
regeneration is indeed useless for cores but i wouldn't want to see it reviving creatures. we might as well get a "win" button. maybe slap an extra bonus on it like more hit points to the creature.
light magic is cool (except retribution which is broken).
earth magic is supposed to be defensive magic, of course it's "weaker". it's not weak btw. it's defensive.
according to this guy's post all heroes should resurrect, all magic schools should be super strong and everyone should have reinforcements. and he got a qp for that -.-
no reinforcements should stay a grand master perk. because then it would be a no brainer and everyone would go for it -.-
and why flanking is boring? the creature that is to retaliate turns to its attacker leaving it open another attack. which means more strategic thinking on where you should go.
more diverse classes, level cap off, bug fixing, further balancing with creature costs and buildings, and new content.


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The_green_drag
The_green_drag


Supreme Hero
posted November 21, 2015 06:33 PM
Edited by The_green_drag at 19:12, 21 Nov 2015.

Yeah idk where anyone is getting that earth magic is underpowered or bad. Regeneration is a crappy spell, yes. But earth magic is not only powerful but fun to play.


Flanking is boring. There is little to no thinking involved and it's made many aspects of the game also boring.

With a little help of warcries and some faction skills, flanking has caused most of the units movement to become very similar in order to ensure a fairness in flanking oppurtunity. I'd like to see the actual numbers but I'm sure about 80% of creature movement is either 5 or 6 tiles. Might as well have dropped the numbers all together and gone with the H1 style of "slow, average, and fast" speeds. Look at how weak the wyvern is just because it has a whopping one extra movement  than the other creatures.

It's also dramatically affected the might skills. What does leveling up offense and defense even do for you other than increase/reduce flanking? There's no extra % of damage dealt or reduced from attacks. You could have all the extra stats you want but if the enemy has GM offense or defense it doesn't even matter. The only perk that benefits the strong elites and champions are the flanking bonuses! You can't say the high tier units are any better with +1 damage or +3 hp...

And then you add in how unit direction cannot be changed like you could in final fantasy tactics. It also makes unlimited retaliation more of a headache than a useful ability. And it just chips away seconds of our lives waiting for everyone other unit to slowly walk to the back of its target...

Flanking just never should have left the drawling board. Along with warcries. Being a might hero has never been worse than it is in h7.

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natalka
natalka


Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
posted November 21, 2015 07:46 PM

retribution is not broken. Don`t nerf it too much to become useless.

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MoritzBradtke
MoritzBradtke


Known Hero
posted November 22, 2015 01:36 PM

The_green_drag said:
Yeah idk where anyone is getting that earth magic is underpowered or bad. Regeneration is a crappy spell, yes. But earth magic is not only powerful but fun to play.


Flanking is boring. There is little to no thinking involved and it's made many aspects of the game also boring.

With a little help of warcries and some faction skills, flanking has caused most of the units movement to become very similar in order to ensure a fairness in flanking oppurtunity. I'd like to see the actual numbers but I'm sure about 80% of creature movement is either 5 or 6 tiles. Might as well have dropped the numbers all together and gone with the H1 style of "slow, average, and fast" speeds. Look at how weak the wyvern is just because it has a whopping one extra movement  than the other creatures.

It's also dramatically affected the might skills. What does leveling up offense and defense even do for you other than increase/reduce flanking? There's no extra % of damage dealt or reduced from attacks. You could have all the extra stats you want but if the enemy has GM offense or defense it doesn't even matter. The only perk that benefits the strong elites and champions are the flanking bonuses! You can't say the high tier units are any better with +1 damage or +3 hp...

And then you add in how unit direction cannot be changed like you could in final fantasy tactics. It also makes unlimited retaliation more of a headache than a useful ability. And it just chips away seconds of our lives waiting for everyone other unit to slowly walk to the back of its target...

Flanking just never should have left the drawling board. Along with warcries. Being a might hero has never been worse than it is in h7.


earth Magic is strong? it's the only School starting with a useless spell -> regeneration! lots of enemies are immune against poison! do you see this in other Schools also? i dont think so

i like flanking and it definatley adds something positive to the game, cant't understand ur'e reasons why it should be bad, most Units have movement 4-7 i think, of course it's similiar, what do you exspect? some with very low like 2 and some with high like 8? also i dont think it has to do anything with flanking it's just their way to Balance stuff, easier to reach Balance if Units are similiar

and for might hereos, u can't get perfect offense and defense together and if ure might or defense is high enough, u'll still get Bonus dmg/defense even with perfect defense/offense, especially for the Champions, These are prety strong GM abilities tough but doesnt make em weak in any way

i think might hereoes are fine, warcries are pretty cool
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MoritzBradtke
MoritzBradtke


Known Hero
posted November 22, 2015 01:39 PM

natalka said:
retribution is not broken. Don`t nerf it too much to become useless.


i checked it again and its damage is pretty high, so I'm not sure but i think a Little nerf should be done, u have to look at other Tier 3 spell for the question how strong it should be, if u idle ure army together and then cast it aoe, it will do some insane dmg for ist costs
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The_green_drag
The_green_drag


Supreme Hero
posted November 22, 2015 03:15 PM

MoritzBradtke said:


earth Magic is strong? it's the only School starting with a useless spell -> regeneration! lots of enemies are immune against poison! do you see this in other Schools also? i dont think so

i like flanking and it definatley adds something positive to the game, cant't understand ur'e reasons why it should be bad, most Units have movement 4-7 i think, of course it's similiar, what do you exspect? some with very low like 2 and some with high like 8? also i dont think it has to do anything with flanking it's just their way to Balance stuff, easier to reach Balance if Units are similiar

and for might hereos, u can't get perfect offense and defense together and if ure might or defense is high enough, u'll still get Bonus dmg/defense even with perfect defense/offense, especially for the Champions, These are prety strong GM abilities tough but doesnt make em weak in any way

i think might hereoes are fine, warcries are pretty cool


-Regeneration is bad I already said that. Other than that one tier 1 spell, the school is fine. Stone skin does plenty and when regeneration is used with stone skin, it's a lot less useless.

-can you name or describe the something positive? Cuz i don't see it. Everyone can do it, there is no point in not doing it other than to save a full flank or half flank for a different unit, which takes no thinking thanks to the ATB bar. Yet it made he game even harder to balance which resulted in a boring game. Units lack depth.

-what kind of movement do I expect? Well in this fantasy game I'd say the range should be from slow moving, heavy construct golems to fast and mobile dragons.. If you think what we get now represents that, then okay let's agree to disagree. I think dragons should be able to fly more than double what a golem can walk.

-as for might heroes, it's hilarious how GM offense and defense, their signature abilities, do not even really help out might heroes. They're great on magic ones tho! And just like most of the skills and perks in this game (such as the actual bonus you get for leveling up offense and defense) are mostly about buffing core units. GM offense turns them into champion killers. What do champs get from offensive skill and perks? Hmm +1 damage, some attack stat, and a boost to their flanking. Yea cool.


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natalka
natalka


Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
posted November 22, 2015 05:45 PM
Edited by natalka at 22:15, 22 Nov 2015.

Elvin said:


2) Light magic is WAY to strong:
•Blessed armor should either be not that good or other magic school / battle skills need to have damage absord abilities too. I would give other magic schools like earth magic and water magic damage absorbing abilities and remove it from light magic.
•Retribution is also way to strong. Possible fixes are make ranged units not get damaged by it and half the damage or duration of that spell.




I disagree with blessed armor or they nerfed it already? It absorbs ~ 400 damage with 25 Magic. You will be far better  dealing damage for more than this small absorb. I don`t know but I think now blessed armor has become useless. Thanks for wanting a nerf...

Retribution is not OP. Don`t you have dispel magic? There is one interesting kind of lock down spell and because ppl can`t deal with it let`s nerf it. My suggestion is to keep damage exactly the same but shooters take half damage. If you nerf it more it will be not as good.

Instead increase power of GM Water, GM Fire which are very weak now.

Quote:
5) Non magic heroes need a way to protect / revive dead creatures otherwise light magic will stay way to strong.



HIghly disagree. Might heroes were always tricky to play with. All factions have potential - gnolls, legionairres(+double healing sister), shades(+smoke bomb, confusion), master hunters. If we give might heroes even more potential it would become too easy.

Quote:
•Reinforcements should be a master ability and you can redisgn the ultimate ability.


If reinforcements works OK now it is quite good GM. 5 % free army for 2 points spent and it rounds up.

Core/Elite/Champs discussion

I don`t think cores are that strong in heroes 7 like they were in heroes 6. Main problem again is the Hall of heroes. All heroes should start with considerably smaller starting army. I think previous heroes nailed the formula so I will copy it here(h5 variant)

20-30 Core 1
7-10 Core 2
0-3 strongest core

If we have a hero who specializes in given core unit then army should be

3 stacks of 20-30 if core 1
3 stacks of 7-10 if core 2
3 stacks of 2-4 if strongest core

Also player should be able to buy maximum 1 native and 1 non-native hero with army from the hall of heroes.

There is a little problem with core1 and core2 in the current system though.

Quote:

1) Hero movement is irritatingly low and poses many balance issues:

- Pathfinding penalties are even more severe.
- Movement boosters have become too essential.
- Snatch is overpowered. Even more so when pickups take 2 movement while moving 1.



Pathfinding and roads problems.

Roads give 50% and all rough terrain no matter desert, dirt, rough cost 50 % more. I think there should be more variety and let`s keep extremes to 33%. Roads should give 33 % bonus = 25% cost bonus and Snow, Desert should reduce by 33 % = 50% cost penalty

Rover is still very badly implemented. It should double rally flag, blind maiden and NOT stables movement bonus. Now it is the other way arround.

Agree about snatch 100 %. It should be in Master rank.

Quote:
2) Town development does not allow you to be creative and forces you down predetermined paths. This is mostly a side effect of the poorly implemented town level restrictions that should either be lowered or ditched altogether.



I must disagree here, sorry. I think comparing to h5  - where we have similar town level requirements( lvl6 comes at town lvl12, capitol champs come at lvl 15)- this system is much better. It is no doubt on account of the new buildings that boost growth but you can build only one of them.
But when I played a very tight economically map I realized other thing - unlike h5 where you can build all creatures + capitol week 2( if the town starts with high enough level) here you must decide between all cretures or some creatures + capitol. It is because there a lot of growth boosters assigned for each creatures.
This leads to various builds, coming from strategic decisions based on richness of map, current resources etc etc
Well done

Firewall..

with the current AI I don`t think when attacking it will line up so you can hit them. That leaves firewall only OP vs shooters. I think making 1x4 is good enough but don`t nerf anything else.

Quote:
6) Another serious issue are the skill caps. I don't mind a few due to class restrictions but when half the skills are capped and 3 skills have a GM there is no freedom of choice to be had. Of course you will go for the skills that feature GMs and of course you will ditch the capped skills except in rare cases like with logistics.


like with logistics ...and I add... might heroes are fine with Expert cap for casting spells like : Storm Arrows, Stone Skin, Weakness, Inner Fire, Despair, Burning Determination.

Quote:
I really think Creature depth is absent this game. Repeated abilities everywhere and blended stats.


I have a view on this from a different angle - mapmaking. I enjoy that they followed the principle of h3 (IIRC) only upgraded creatures to have special ability. This in turn creates very interesting possibilites on the maps e.g.

- lamasu - upgrades have aura

- rakshasa - upgrades wipe out single 1s

- guardian(justicar) - double strike

- blade dancer - same as raksha

For the same ammount of XP gain battle becomes much harder even though their HP is lower.


They are many aspects of the game which are still unfixed:

- Battle sites are crap

- Artifact merchant is hilarious

- Magic Menagerie(is it supposed to work like that ?)

- Mysterious Grave( should give only major or minor artifacts but not from minor to RELIC...where is balance)

- Fortune teller - why the heck I need next week. It would be best if they made it so it can also change next week for a price.

- Hall of heroes is absurd - too big startig armies, all heroes with armies..






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MoritzBradtke
MoritzBradtke


Known Hero
posted November 22, 2015 06:09 PM

The_green_drag said:

6
-can you name or describe the something positive? Cuz i don't see it. Everyone can do it, there is no point in not doing it other than to save a full flank or half flank for a different unit, which takes no thinking thanks to the ATB bar. Yet it made he game even harder to balance which resulted in a boring game. Units lack depth.

-what kind of movement do I expect? Well in this fantasy game I'd say the range should be from slow moving, heavy construct golems to fast and mobile dragons.. If you think what we get now represents that, then okay let's agree to disagree. I think dragons should be able to fly more than double what a golem can walk.

-as for might heroes, it's hilarious how GM offense and defense, their signature abilities, do not even really help out might heroes. They're great on magic ones tho! And just like most of the skills and perks in this game (such as the actual bonus you get for leveling up offense and defense) are mostly about buffing core units. GM offense turns them into champion killers. What do champs get from offensive skill and perks? Hmm +1 damage, some attack stat, and a boost to their flanking. Yea cool.




u want more depth? assasins use flanking as skill, full flanking gives em even more dmg, no flanking and u'll loose that, flanking is a strategic element in many ways, dont face the back to enemies, use opportunities to full flank em, also the question idle together defensive or attack and risk beink flanked? i dont think the flank System is so important for the balancing of the creatures, even if they have first strike, doesnt mean they can flank because how the combat map works, there are Corners where flanking is simply not possible

i'm up for Realismus anytime but not for the sacrifice of Balance, so u want slow Golems with heavy defense and fast Dragons and what? it's a difficult Topic to Balance factions and cratures, something than can't be discussed here easily and so it's better to make the stats similiar to secure some Balance

well i woudnt underestimate the influence of might heroes on big armies, gm offense is very good for cores against elites and Champions and even if u dont Need it the bonuses u get in general have a pretty high influence on the damage, especially with big armies
3 offense talents novive, expert, master give +6 attack on ist own, that together with the General high attack of might hereos will earn Champions far more than +1 attack or what u said, even 1 attack oever defense is already +5% dmg

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The_Green_Drag
The_Green_Drag


Supreme Hero
posted November 22, 2015 08:43 PM

MoritzBradtke said:





u want more depth? assasins use flanking as skill, full flanking gives em even more dmg, no flanking and u'll loose that, flanking is a strategic element in many ways, dont face the back to enemies, use opportunities to full flank em, also the question idle together defensive or attack and risk beink flanked? i dont think the flank System is so important for the balancing of the creatures, even if they have first strike, doesnt mean they can flank because how the combat map works, there are Corners where flanking is simply not possible

i'm up for Realismus anytime but not for the sacrifice of Balance, so u want slow Golems with heavy defense and fast Dragons and what? it's a difficult Topic to Balance factions and cratures, something than can't be discussed here easily and so it's better to make the stats similiar to secure some Balance

well i woudnt underestimate the influence of might heroes on big armies, gm offense is very good for cores against elites and Champions and even if u dont Need it the bonuses u get in general have a pretty high influence on the damage, especially with big armies
3 offense talents novive, expert, master give +6 attack on ist own, that together with the General high attack of might hereos will earn Champions far more than +1 attack or what u said, even 1 attack oever defense is already +5% dmg



I really think Creature depth is absent this game. Repeated abilities everywhere and blended stats. A tier one dungeon unit having a unique ability is not depth. And that ability could still be their without a flanking system making assassins truely unique. Anyways, there is not much strategy involved without being able to select which direction to face after attacking. And I don't understand why they didnt add this since they made it so nearly every unit can walk around a large creature and fully flank them.

Your second paragraph leads me to think you have not played the NWC games. Especially that first sentence. Some realism and creature depth does not make the game impossible to balance and as video game makers they should be up for this challenge to creature an indulging game. Instead (or i should say as usual) Ubi goes and makes a bunch of similar line ups with similar stats and tries to differentiate them with faction skills. But that doesn't cut it for me. And it kills the replay value since they all feel the same.

As for the might heroes, I just want Offense and Defense to be more beneficial. A small % increase to the damage AFTER stat differences and actual damage have been taken into account. This way offense increases the damage of every attack or retaliation made, not just when they flank. And vice versa for Defense. They could even split Offense into two skills and make an archery slice.


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natalka
natalka


Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
posted November 22, 2015 10:18 PM
Edited by natalka at 22:20, 22 Nov 2015.

Quote:
This way offense increases the damage of every attack or retaliation made, not just when they flank.



I am not sure this is true. Everytime you attack the damage multiplier is calculated - flank or no flank.

If anyone thinks might factions can`t win I invite them to play vs me orcs when map is ready

But I don`t want hear how imba gnolls are ..

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The_green_drag
The_green_drag


Supreme Hero
posted November 22, 2015 10:47 PM

I was talking about something that isn't in the game in your quote

And I don't think any factions are overpowered or underpowered. Everything is so similar that it's literally impossible

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natalka
natalka


Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
posted November 23, 2015 08:43 AM

ye with the exclusion of Necropolis in late game and orcs who can creep  way more easily then others.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted November 23, 2015 10:25 AM

Elvin said:
5) Non magic heroes need a way to protect / revive dead creatures otherwise light magic will stay way to strong.

Wasn't that one of the top complaints about H6 - too much resurrection?

Anyway, one would assume that was what First Aid Tent was for. Am I right in remembering that FAT doesn't resurrect, even when you pick the skill?
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What will happen now?

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The_green_drag
The_green_drag


Supreme Hero
posted November 23, 2015 01:55 PM

natalka said:
ye with the exclusion of Necropolis in late game and orcs who can creep  way more easily then others.


Hehe oh yea I forgot about how op necro is. I've been not leveling necromancy past basic just make things interesting

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draco
draco


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 23, 2015 06:07 PM

MoritzBradtke said:
natalka said:
retribution is not broken. Don`t nerf it too much to become useless.


i checked it again and its damage is pretty high, so I'm not sure but i think a Little nerf should be done, u have to look at other Tier 3 spell for the question how strong it should be, if u idle ure army together and then cast it aoe, it will do some insane dmg for ist costs


I don't know about the rest of you, but if I'm trying to hurt someone, I would much prefer to cast mass Agony, than Mass Retribution.

The problem with retribution is you still take damage and lose troops in the process, where with other spells you can avoid the damage completely.

What I would like to see though with retribution is two changes.

-- Retaliation doesn't trigger retribution

-- Units should only trigger retribution once per attack (right now you get dinged twice if you attack a Marksman next to a Legionnaire for example)

GM Offense and Defense can be quite useful against a mage, if I cast GM Stone skin or Inner Fire my attack and defense skills can hit in the low 100's on my level 1 troops, and having my enemy's attacks go from 4X damage to 1X is a huge bonus.

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