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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Talking about Christianity
Thread: Talking about Christianity This thread is 40 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 20 30 ... 36 37 38 39 40 · «PREV / NEXT»
frostysh
frostysh


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
posted February 03, 2017 04:36 PM

Baronus -

I am not interested in the propaganda mythology like stuff.

JollyJoker -

Well too materialistic, but I agreed with a many things. But I want to add that Science is not so materialistic as you said, because if that may be so - the Science becoming non-interesting .
I thought to post a joke about some uncles, and Carlitoss, and stuff, but I changed my mind, because Admin can going on me mad, again, and ban me  
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 03, 2017 05:01 PM
Edited by artu at 00:50, 04 Feb 2017.

AlHazin said:
And no, theology is no as cultural as you may think. Theology developed in almost every culture, and thus is what we call universal.

Theology did not develop in every culture, tribes don't have theologians for instance, but that's not the point anyway. Theology is not universal because it is structured upon cultural references. That is, unlike two cardiologists from China and Denmark, who can discuss how the heart works by the same principles, your theologian will base his "axioms" on tawhid, while a Christian theologian  will base his on trinity. They do not have an observable and testable common ground. All the theologies of the world are not compatible, they contradict.
AlHazin said:
Theorizing Artu said:
Big Bang suggests otherwise, there could be other universes or a series of Big Bangs but such assumptions have nothing to do with the super-natural. The super-natural is not a weak explanation because science is perfectly accurate about every detail, the super-natural is a weak explanation because it is an overwhelmingly transparent fairy tale.


How do you call this? That's right, an assumption lol

Yes, but one assumption is based on reasoning, evidence and math, while the other is based on tradition and tradition only. One does not project itself to improvement while the other does. So their plausibility is not identical. You are not living in the Matrix and Agent Smith is a fictional character, that's also an assumption.
AlHazin said:
As I said, you can't apply the experimental process on the study of humans. And because you can't, you will be obliged to interpret the results you will gather upon studying let's say, cave paintings, hieroglyphs, ancient writings, multiple corpses, interpreting is the key word here. If you assume religions, beliefs come from a folkloric convention, you will likely interpret those results in that way.

First of all, as I already mentioned countless times, it's not just about history, there are still existing cultures that are polytheistic or even animistic, they don't have monotheism, they don't have some disguised monotheism hidden somewhere in there either, and unless you think it's an overwhelmingly weird coincidence that monotheism only emerges in cultures that have monarchic hierarchies and institutions, that's a very solid interpretation and comparing it to an absolutely arbitrary "alternative history" that is not even interpreted, but imagined by some monotheist because he has "faith" is not really a challenge of thought.

Not to mention, not every scientific observation is based on "being there yourself and watching things with your own two eyes." When you see a photograph from a hundred years ago, you don't say "but I didn't take the photograph myself," do you. Or when some physicist talks about the elements in the core of the sun, you don't object by saying "but you did not dig to the center of the sun, how can you know." If based on proper methods and calculation, observation can be indirect and that observation is still a thousand times more credible than religiosity.
Quote:
Yes and no. What you say is wrong for the most part. Do you think that all the scientists who are universal intellectuals all come from the West and far East? Please go check how many Middle-Easterns (Muslim or not) or Arabs or I don't know which race you want, actually work in western institutions, like NASA, universities, companies, and tell me we don't produce. You can't judge the way you do because today's cards are not the same as they were: globalization. Our (Arab) world is corrupted, ruined for sure, but guess what? Europe was worse in middle ages. Did it disappear?

I'm not talking about individuals. (And if I was, there are no game changers, paradigm shifters from Islamic culture such as Ibn-i Rüsht or Ibn-i Sina anymore, since centuries, I'm talking about people like Darwin, Freud, Marx, Einstein, Popper, ones with sometimes flawed but revolutionary perspectives.) So, somebody of value migrating to U.S. and working for NASA is actually what strengthens my point. Why do you think somebody does that? Because they are hindered by a mentality such as And this is why I don't give much credit to those modern scientists. They apply their EP on everything, and when they can't, than the thing which can't be understood simply doesn't exist. They advance on assumptions, they make hypothesis and build a whole science upon them. They developed taboos making some ideas refused by default. Basically, they turn science into a religion," on a social and institutional level where they are originally from. It is the norm, the dogmatic obstacles are not personal but entrapping. The cards are not dealt by sheer luck, a society develops, improves, learns from its mistakes and the Islamic culture is still very very reluctant to do that. Ironically, as long as they stay reluctant, the only identity they can relate to evolves into a religious one and exceptions aside, BECAUSE OF THAT they can't produce relevant art, relevant philosophy, relevant science to this century's problems. So they proud themselves in religion more and more, it's a vicious cycle.
AlHazin said:
The prophet (SAAWS) already told us of the end of Islam
 
As far as I remember that "prophecy" was about just before the apocalypse, it's a sign of doom according to the narrative, not a historical analysis, so unless you think the world is just about to end, it's irrelevant. (Or maybe it's fred who did the converting!)
yogi said:
cars dont drive people, no matter how unhealthy they are

A perfectly healthy driver can be sitting on a broken car or a car in perfect condition can be crashed by an awful driver. There is no organic mutuality between the condition of the two. The mind is directly a a process of your body.
JJ said:
Faith is something you do not need ANY evidence for. It's like betting on your favorite team - there is no evidence, but for you there are "signs" - or just hope it fervently.

But as we see again and again, it never works that way and now anthropology or the Big Bang are not any different in regard to being assumptions than the revelations of Quran! Faith hinders the perspective and never just stays in anybody's prayers before going to bed, wish it did.

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted February 03, 2017 05:26 PM
Edited by yogi at 17:27, 03 Feb 2017.

artu said:

A perfectly healthy driver can be sitting on a broken car or a car in perfect condition can be crashed by an awful driver. There is no organic mutuality between the condition of the two.


irrelevant, and you contradict yourself

artu said:
The mind is directly a a process of your body.


your body directs your mind, wtf?



the fundamental law of the universe is causality, also called karma

either matter precedes force(will'power), or force(will'power) precedes matter

big bang?

does the driver direct the car, or does the car direct the driver?

does the body direct the mind, or does the mind direct the body?

proactively this law is known as the golden rule
treat others the way you would have them treat you

religion?
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 03, 2017 05:54 PM

Saying X is directly a process of Y, does not mean X directs Y as a person drives a car, wasn't English your mother tongue? And what is contradictory in that? There is no separate mind that you can exclude from your body as an entity. A driver can leave the car, your mind can not leave your body and its functions are very much determined by how that body evolved physically and what goes through your mind is not independent from the functionality of your body. Your mind isn't an aura. Your will power does not exist in the realm of Platonic ideals, your will power is a result of how your brain, an organ in your body evolved and it has its handicaps and flaws, exactly because of that. Try to solve a complicated problem when you immediately have to go to the bathroom and take piss, then inform us on how your will power transcended space-time, if you will.

The golden rule is also irrelevant and it's something that applies to some of the high intelligence species living in groups. Daises or wasps don't behave according to the golden rule. And the universe, which also includes them and their behavioral patterns, doesn't have a golden rule because, unlike the golden rule, the universe isn't normative. And karma is not the same as causality, karma assumes a symmetrical balance while causality doesn't.

Your jumpology doesn't make sense.

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted February 03, 2017 06:41 PM
Edited by yogi at 18:48, 03 Feb 2017.

artu said:
Try to solve a complicated problem when you immediately have to go to the bathroom and take piss, then inform us on how your will power transcended space-time, if you will.

oh i can leave my body at will, but im refraining from anecdotes, even though anybody could develop the skill.  i meditate for hours a day though.
but since you ask
a few years ago a bone spur developed in my face as the result of a slightly deformed cranium from severe prematurity.  life changing pain.  i dont take drugs.  meditation.  one of the worlds leading surgeons told me they had 3 different techniques that might solve the problem.  i wasnt assured.  during this time i was also visiting with a psychologist for eeg testing.  having a long-standing relationship he was curious how the pain affected my faculties, and added iq tests.  i scored 147 and 148.
ignoring pain is easy.
over the past few years i have managed to restructure the neuromuscular system in my face via regimented breathing techniques.
you are talking with someone who has eaten the same thing every day for years, goes to the bathroom at the same time every day, enjoys fasting for 72 hour meditations, (and long walks on the beach).
continence lol
if only you knew the capabilities of true health.

artu said:
The golden rule is also irrelevant and it's something that applies to some of the high intelligence species living in groups. Daises or wasps don't behave according to the golden rule. And the universe, which also includes them and their behavioral patterns, doesn't have a golden rule because, unlike the golden rule, the universe isn't normative.

you must have missed the word "proactively".

artu said:
And karma is not the same as causality, karma assumes a symmetrical balance while causality doesn't.

Karma (Sanskrit: कर्म; IPA: [ˈkərmə] ( listen); Pali: kamma) means action, work or deed;[1] it also refers to the spiritual principle of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual (cause) influence the future of that individual (effect).
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 03, 2017 07:15 PM
Edited by artu at 00:52, 04 Feb 2017.

yogi said:
oh i can leave my body at will, but im refraining from anecdotes, even though anybody could develop the skill.

Astral journeys are not real. "Neuroscientists and psychologists regard OBEs (out of body experience) as dissociative experiences arising from different psychological and neurological factors."

If you have faith in their authenticity, just because they "feel" real, it would be a waste of both of our times to try convince you otherwise but the academic consensus is that they are not. One thing is certain though, both neurology and the authenticity of astral journeys can't be correct, they are incompatible and one of them is basing their definition of such experiences on a flawed method. If I have some disease in my brain in the future, I'll go to a neurologist, you feel free to pick a Hindu guru.
yogi said:
a few years ago a bone spur developed in my face as the result of a slightly deformed cranium from severe prematurity.  life changing pain.  i dont take drugs.  meditation.  one of the worlds leading surgeons told me they had 3 different techniques that might solve the problem.  i wasnt assured.  during this time i was also visiting with a psychologist for eeg testing.  having a long-standing relationship he was curious how the pain affected my faculties, and added iq tests.  i scored 147 and 148. ignoring pain is easy.

My condolences, I had surgery on my spine and I know such operations can cause unbearable pain. Learning to tolerate such pain over time, however, does not change the fundamental fact that your "will power" is not something Platonic. Spies and military personnel have training to ignore pain and endure it longer even under torture all the time. They all have a breaking point though and that breaking point exists in... space-time. Try to enjoy fasting 472 hours instead of 72 and we'll see how it goes. Adaptability is not absolute, just like will power isn't.
yogi said:
You must have missed the word "proactively".

What difference does that make? The golden rule is normative, the universe is not. Normative rules are not intrinsic in nature. They are constructions.
Quote:
Karma ( listen); Pali: kamma) means action, work or deed;[1] it also refers to the spiritual principle of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual (cause) influence the future of that individual (effect).

Yes, I can look up karma in the Wikipedia, too. If one's objection is that karma assumes a symmetrical balance while causality doesn't though, I wouldn't leave out the part where it continues good intent and good deed contribute to good karma and future happiness, while bad intent and bad deed contribute to bad karma and future suffering. That would be quite dishonest. Because we know, although sometimes people get what they deserve because of karma, sometimes they certainly don't and unlike causality, it is not a universal principle. There are a lot of nice people suffering horribly and bad people getting away with all kinds of snow.

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted February 03, 2017 08:33 PM bonus applied by Corribus on 05 Feb 2017.

Entirely for imaginative, creative fun.

Ever pondered who each of us...are? Before this little "entertainment"...consider, that I have not been the same "me" for the length of my years. Unlike, say, a baked loaf of bread...I am still in the oven and will be until I am gone from sight. "For life is a vapor that soon passes away."

I am both behind and inside an incredibly complex electrical flesh-machine called our body.

All the parts of our body are equally important to produce...our thoughts, our actions and inactions...our essence...the resulting personhood...US.

Hearts stop...so do we. A leg ceases to work and like a wheel falling off a vehicle, forward-movement is greatly impaired. If both legs go? we need to add to us, a fabricated electronic-machine-appendage to easily move once more, or if poor, we need our neighbors.

Yet, do we reside in a Heart, a Leg or any one place? No. Each of us is the sum of an incredible array of various forms of (for lack of a better word) flesh & programing.

The closest we get to us, of course, is inside the brain, the command center or pilot-house. However, if the heart goes, we are completely ejected from life inside that body.

For grins and giggles, I see myself more like a mini-me or "idea" sitting inside a transformer-like electronic flesh robot.

When I reflect on the critical parts that make a human-being ,it is an incredibly marvelous creation (no matter that source) and it is pretty mind-blowing, when we slow down and consider each individual and clearly see what we guess to be...them .

The entire person emerges from a varied-mixture of interacting complex bodily systems and networks inherited from DNA, family-cohesions or lack thereof, education, experience, social networks of varying scope - of one and/or many simultaneous impacts on the development of a Person and also we shouldn't overlook...the joys and sorrows within that single lived-life. Everything combines to create you, I and every One.

Creativity, imagination, environment, stimulation, self-effort, labor and relationships are only part of the groundwork and all of them also add varied-dimensions, concepts and precepts, etc. to the initial and later possibilities of the individual, to later frame even the number and degree of possible outcomes regarding the merging of our mental, physical and spiritual realms into an ever-changing expression, capable of most anything within dreamy-reason.

Each one of us resides at different times within a mixture behind a single changing life combined with episodes of other changing lives, while also simultaneously a part of the even greater human-family, active in different, sometimes very different places and impacted by events around the earth. The yin & yang, yea and the nay, the to & fro of individual-lives, of then the Collective-expression of...groups, nations, and regions of this present World.

Today, all across the world, greater than any sci-fi that was ever imagined in the past & present powerhouse of Human-imagination, a laser-beam can penetrate the eyes and minds of individual creations around the world in an instant...giving stimuli to the very core of millions of beings at once...to what was once called "our mind's eye." I call it a unique-generated-Spirit, for each of us cannot actually be seen but instead the "Effects" of each of us, can be understood, felt or seen in both brief or continual positive, neutral or negative displays representing "our self" mirrored and perceived by others, correctly and incorrectly.

Like the old adage; "Never judge a book by its cover". But, we are no simple Book nor entirely are we the Pages within a book. Because, when we attempt to read a person like a book? even if we try behind good intent, if we try to open those personal-pages describing another soul, are we guaranteed to clearly see and know that person? Of course not. Elizabeth the 1st wisely said; (off the top of my head)"I will not be made to see through the windows of men's souls."

Reflect/Imagine the following paradigm for a moment. When awake, are we not very similar to a bus-driver, or ship-captain of old...sitting behind the windshield of our eyes and navigating this electronic flesh out into a world? A world that we can shrink or enlarge for the purpose of a moment? (think romantic seclusion or a thronged street protest) We move through a "reality of our own" behind a collective making too but our perceived-reality can also be nicely-flavored or strongly-impacted by not only our own choices but the choices of others, near and far?

We are required to chart a course (maturity) through known and unknown calm & turbulent seas, that can boil behind the decisions made by ourselves or others; sometimes only small disturbing swells, that require only a single change-of-course to hold or attain safety or arrival to some destination. But there are other tempests that more resemble a tidal-wave of uncertainty or a hurricane of emotional-storms that nearly wreck our lives or even how we visualize our own lives. We avoid them if at all possible but sometimes we cannot evade the unwanted dark waves that roll-over us from sources of which we granted no such power.

However, think, speak and make this so; that we have an embedded power, (no matter your personal source) that unless our vehicle is seriously damaged and cannot function in its full capacity, we can learn and better live the future for ourselves, by ensuring the future of not only kindred-Spirits but all of what it means to say; we are all free TO-BE.

May our Love, Compassion and serving Need, of all types, guide our conversations, arguments and debates on this new and expanding Global-stage, with a personal dedicated goal towards a healthier and freer Human-race, where Love not War rules the Earth in the end.

We must ceaselessly strive for what "represents Heaven" in each of our imaginations and not what "reveals Hell" in daily life. It is imperative that each of us holds fast to "our own rudder first" and successfully sail our own waters before any grander vision can be successfully achieved.
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"Do your own research"

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted February 04, 2017 08:21 PM

I have not published my Christian poetry anywhere, save a couple of
"money-making-projects" falsely disguised as genuine Writing-Contests. Nor have I put a poem like the following in HC's poetry thread. Now, it should be perfectly fine to do so but I have never felt my Faith as either accepted, much less welcome, so I have disciplined myself to mostly post in this thread now, I will blend the two now.

This was written 4 years after I became a Christian, after I realized what a "business" Church had became in the modern world and in my opinion, by direct selfish actions that were never centered on Christ's "You cannot serve God and Mammon".

"WOLVES"

It is obvious who they serve,
and it's not the Lord above.
Money is their master,
and not the kingdom of love.
They need more and more,
as they bleed God's children dry.
They are on a selfish trip,
to build mansions in the sky.
Like stray bullets,
they hit were they can,
Building an earthly empire,
is the fruit of their master's plan.
To whom much is given,
all will be accounted for.
It comes from the faithful,
who are often very poor.

They make crystal cathedrals,
and schools that bear their names.
What will they teach the world?
pride and begging games?
Their monogrammed monuments,
soak up more and more.
Like an onrushing monster,
and we can't close the door.
Wake up you people of vision,
look away from your own dreams.
Can't you see the real needs?
Can't you hear the children scream?
Wolves in sheep's clothing and false preachers,
the good book says beware.
Only God knows your heart.
A voice in the wilderness says, take care.


Markkur, from 1984 (not the book, or Van Halen Album)

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frostysh
frostysh


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
posted February 05, 2017 06:06 AM - penalty applied by Corribus on 05 Feb 2017.
Edited by frostysh at 06:08, 05 Feb 2017.

mr markkur.

1) Your approximation of a common life, is little bit not good. The life is different in many places of Earth. And cannot be represented as your model. Your model basically shows only life in the rich countries.

2) Electronics and stuffis becoming more complex, and more "powerful" everyday. Yesterday was simple electronic tube, today neuron-networks, and who hell know what will be tomorrow. But I have doubts, that guys that will develop all this stuff, will care too much about religion...

3) As I have said, for an example for myself - I do not need any gods, or religions to be good. I have humanism, charity, justice and stuff without any angles, seraphims, resurrections etc.. And I do not say that, justice for an example is real - I just believe into it, regardless if it is real or not.
I do not understand the folks like u, mr markkur, I mean religious guys. But I like some stuff from Christianity.  

4) Who the hell is  "Elizabeth the 1st wisely"?

5) I understand almost nothin what you have said about "hell and paradise" - but i can say that hell is real . And I hope the gods will save those poor souls that born there yeah... .  

6) I am not strong in poetry, well I think I never listen read something larger in poetry than rap-song But I think your poem sux, mr markkur.
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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted February 05, 2017 04:53 PM

frostysh said:
mr markkur.

How do your know "for certain" if I am a Mr.? Because I SAID I am an old man? Because I chose a Dwarf-faced Avatar?

Do most men defend everyone these days?

frostysh said:
1) Your approximation of a common life, is little bit not good. The life is different in many places of Earth. And cannot be represented as your model. Your model basically shows only life in the rich countries.


Try to understand the following.
1. Poetry has many expressions or "forms" and each "may" be written to a purpose.

2. That poem, though <imo> not well written, as I would work it today 33 years later, (and it IS effort) but it is powerful for one reason it targets Christians and everything in it is Christ. Very often it is very important when a person sees a lot wrong in the world...they start in their own backyard. Christianity, was and is mine.  


frostysh said:
2) Electronics and stuffis becoming more complex, and more "powerful" everyday. Yesterday was simple electronic tube, today neuron-networks, and who hell know what will be tomorrow. But I have doubts, that guys that will develop all this stuff, will care too much about religion...

There are rebel Scientist that think the more we fine tune Science the closer we draw to God. Myself? For me, with Science or without Science the same eternal, internal battle is at hand. The world is in a mess, because People are in a mess.

frostysh said:
3) As I have said, for an example for myself - I do not need any gods, or religions to be good. I have humanism, charity, justice and stuff without any angles, seraphims, resurrections etc.. And I do not say that, justice for an example is real - I just believe into it, regardless if it is real or not.
I do not understand the folks like u, mr markkur, I mean religious guys. But I like some stuff from Christianity.


I would never deny another person to come up with their own form of whatever. But I found and read scrolls that held the "good news" "about me and changed me". Fact. An "inside-job" so to speak. Don't blame me when people both inside and outside the Church will not seek anything but themselves...including yourself.

frostysh said:
4) Who the hell is  "Elizabeth the 1st wisely"?



Queen of England, Henry VIII's daughter. She came to the throne, after her daddy divorced her mother which eventually dragged all of Europe into flames. You'll need to read all that history to fully comprehend my reference to her.

frostysh said:
5) I understand almost nothin what you have said about "hell and paradise" - but i can say that hell is real . And I hope the gods will save those poor souls that born there yeah... .


"Dante" imagined Hell as "levels". I "have lived" both Heaven and Hell in "degrees". Some Hells, have been short-lived, by primarily my own making but thankfully short-lived. However, it would be viewed by many here, as a potent hell in actuality, if they suddenly found themselves as disease ridden as I am.

And I have sense enough to realize, if what I contend with now? Had came on me in one-stroke and not 16 years of decay? It would have been a Devastating-Hell with zero-time for struggle or my acceptance. For all experience, it would have been "A Sentence", Justice handed to me", A true verdict on my abusing my body and working with deadly chemicals, chasing Materialism and Greed. Even though I both accept and understand my life now. "This Hell" hurts and drains me. I long for my Princess and I to walk as free-lovers again, to places where we see scenes as grateful-children and our lives as a work of Art" That would be Heaven for the both of US.  

frostysh said:
6) I am not strong in poetry, well I think I never listen read something larger in poetry than rap-song But I think your poem sux, mr markkur.

Well if you are not "Strong in poetry" Maybe you could be "strong in your Respects" and not judge something of which you know nothing?"

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted February 05, 2017 05:13 PM

frostysh, you were just penalized a few days ago for insulting another member. Now you've done it again, in practically the same way. So you get penalized again.

Here's a little help for you: let's not use the word "sux" any more when referring to (a) other posters, (b) other posts, (c) parts of other posts, (d) ideas found in other posts, (e) demographic categories, (f)... actually, maybe it's just better you don't use the word "sux" at all. That way, you are above all reproach.

One more penalty and you'll find your flood protect starts to increase rather dramatically, so I'd give the Code of Conduct a really, really close read if I were you.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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frostysh
frostysh


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
posted February 06, 2017 07:19 AM
Edited by frostysh at 07:26, 06 Feb 2017.

markkur said:
How do your know "for certain" if I am a Mr.? Because I SAID I am an old man? Because I chose a Dwarf-faced Avatar?

Do most men defend everyone these days?



mr markkur -

You probably don't saw my posts, when I called anyone - mr/mrs, because I don't saw the "Gender" fiend in the forum of my profiles screen. But then, guys starting going mad on me and saying - this is an insult of their. So one guy advises me to look at forum profiles. And I have found that in the most profiles - "Male", even without a proper field.
I am actually don't care about your gender.  I just a way to direct my posts to you, but without the result - ""this insult!" . So I depend the way that I will direct my post on YOUR choice, and your choice is represented in forum profile.

Simple enough, and effective.
markkur said:
Try to understand the following.
1. Poetry has many expressions or "forms" and each "may" be written to a purpose.

2. That poem, though <imo> not well written, as I would work it today 33 years later, (and it IS effort) but it is powerful for one reason it targets Christians and everything in it is Christ. Very often it is very important when a person sees a lot wrong in the world...they start in their own backyard. Christianity, was and is mine.  

Those citation of mine, was not only about your poem, but about the expression of life in your previous post too... Nevermind.

Me trying to understand . . . . . . . .

Me do not understand . .

Mr markkur, Christianity was always a party of this world, almost everything that you see, somehow connected to the Christianity. The choices that has been made in the past, the bad choices included, usually have some connection to Christianity. Christianity even helped to Science, regardless of what the Christians want  - I mean Renaissance.
The point is next - The Christianity is a part of history of mankind, bad and good, the both.
markkur said:

There are rebel Scientist that think the more we fine tune Science the closer we draw to God. Myself? For me, with Science or without Science the same eternal, internal battle is at hand. The world is in a mess, because People are in a mess.
About God - we will see . In the Science is observations and experiments is tha main guys (for an exception of Mathematics and such stuff ).

The life on Earth of humans, without Science is almost impossible - Sceince it is something natural, the result of evolution somekind. I mean if you have some smarty living beings, such as cows, after some time (perhaps a few decades of million years...) you will obtain a Science - but this is my speculation with Evolution Theory, so do not pay much of attention on that .

For me, with Religion (Christianity included ofc) or without Religion the same eternal, internal battle is at hand. The world is in a mess, because People are in a mess.

But I know how to end a lot of this mess - we must unite main powers at Earth in the name of allsake, and then, together fought poverty, conflicts, and other global problems
For an example we must unite US and SU and then bring to Africa the law and the order
I think my solution is much more better, and close to the reality then your metaphorical-philosophical-poetry nonsense, mr markkur
The main problem is that - it is a very easy to say, but almost impossible to do
markkur said:
I would never deny another person to come up with their own form of whatever. But I found and read scrolls that held the "good news" "about me and changed me". Fact. An "inside-job" so to speak. Don't blame me when people both inside and outside the Church will not seek anything but themselves...including yourself.

markkur said:
I would never deny another person to come up with their own form of whatever. But I found and read scrolls that held the "good news" "about me and changed me". Fact. An "inside-job" so to speak. Don't blame me when people both inside and outside the Church will not seek anything but themselves...including yourself.
Mr markkur, I will try to be less sarcastic possible (and I will try hard, because this frigging Admin will ban me instead . I have no disrespect, I just so excited by such effective works of moderator-guys. )

So mr markkur, Is it better to believe in some "scroll" than in yourself, your choice, justice etc? I have a bad news mr markkur,- THE any information that you obtain about Christianity/Christ/God etc in your life, was defacto written by the PEOPLES , that by your words - Are in the mess . And do you think that I mus believe to those frigging papers written by those humans, frigging 2k years ago? Without any frigging single clue Are you frigging kidding me, mr markkur....
All your "spirit experience" and stuff may be - just a result of psychological mambo-jumbo, nothing more.    
markkur said:
Queen of England, Henry VIII's daughter. She came to the throne, after her daddy divorced her mother which eventually dragged all of Europe into flames. You'll need to read all that history to fully comprehend my reference to her.
mr markkur, I know that a public political guys - can be truly different in the reality, than the stuff that you read about them. .

About the hell - well  mr "Dante" was biased and insane guy, but the hell he have a good imagination .

Mr markkur, what can I say - I can say that you can imagine that not only for it is so bad. In the poor regions, if the human have a bad luck to obtain some serious health issues (wound, deceases etc) - this human dying in horrible suffering without any hope, and without any deadly chemical that can help. The end of story.
The uncountable amount of peoples faced such fate, and facing till we are talking right now, and will face in the future.  
So I can say, that your are lucky of somekind.

And I have said - the hell is real.

About your poem poem - I have read it for once (briefly), so ca I judge it from myself? I mean you are posted you poem to show it for another peoples, right?  and this poem ARgawgfawfawfnawnfanwifawfawf, argggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhh - not so good, and not like something that I like. But this is only my taste. Well the part about children screams is not so bad at all, I guess so. .

Corribus -

I think this is horrible injustice to restrict me to use one of my main word to interact with other stuff in the forums - "sux".
And where the hell I have managed to use this word against "demographic categories" ?

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Raenus
Raenus


Famous Hero
Grouchy curmudgeon
posted February 06, 2017 08:05 AM

frostysh said:


Corribus -

I think this is horrible injustice to restrict me to use one of my main word to interact with other stuff in the forums - "sux".
And where the hell I have managed to use this word against "demographic categories" ?



I would count my blessing if I were you. There are many members, myself included, who would have banned (or at the very least penalized many, many more times) you long ago if put in Corribus' place.

P.S. Beautiful poem Markkur, your talent with words is laudable to say the least.

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted February 06, 2017 04:48 PM

frostysh
We are oil and water...you can make the selection.

Conversation, though I did make one good effort, is not possible with you. I tried, you do not.

I wish you a safe and happy life.

Raenus said:
P.S. Beautiful poem Markkur, your talent with words is laudable to say the least.

Kind words there...thank you.

The Quality of 35 years of poems, is naturally all over the map and to my own present tastes, some I would rewrite entirely. However, I don't do such things to...snapshots of past life, no matter the form of the picture.

However, if I may add something; Poetry is far more than rhyming. I do mean in form of course but what I actually prize and seek is the very effort of getting some awareness, huge or tiny, outside the mind and recorded. I think many people are ill or sad today because they will not venture to use this ancient tonic and often because they belittle themselves out of making the 1st effort and therefore they never explore the depths of their own thoughts.

I believe with all that I am, that we, all God's children, were created to write and to sing...most importantly SING. I play guitar but I will experiment with anything that makes music, be it sounds by word or instrument. Because what is an instrument? It is " a means whereby something is achieved or furthered."

What if we "would see" Joy as needing these instruments to fine-tune Joy, rather than seeing Joy as a sudden appearance (like fast-food) in the form of unearned gift? What if Joy was like Silver and had to be crafted?

Cheers
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"Do your own research"

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted February 07, 2017 08:32 PM
Edited by yogi at 02:31, 08 Feb 2017.

sorry, busy

one way to describe yoga is the science of self-control, or uniting the voluntary to the involuntary.

at the risk of repeating myself, allow me to clarify with a quote from a previous post:
"very similar to directing the awareness through the eyes at a magnifying lens so intently in the study of the laws of physics that too few nerves are attached to the ears to hear someone call your name, meditation is the directing of the awareness inward on those very same laws governing our bodies and minds, so intently that your nerves ultimately recede from all the senses.  whether the eyes are open or not is irrelevant, but the exercise is much more pertinent when they are open.  a state of meditation is attained via a voluntary directing of the nerves, no different than jumping, and feels as equally sensual.  intriguingly, when one does direct all their energy inward behind the experience of the senses, and sight and material space finally fade from awareness, time collapses too.  this is why the eyes being open is pertinent, because the experiment reveals that while time stops, consciousness continues in the purely potential state.  all that's left is the stream of consciousness.  makes sense though.  i will add that the physical feeling of rising throughout this whole experience as the nerves recede from the extremities of the body up into the brain is quite euphoric.  takes seriously strict attention to one's body and diet, a lot of energy, discipline, and practice though."

it also helps to focus on The Pure Conscience; or pray.

"in order to truly live, one must first die."

discussing beyond this point is not possible without first hand experience.

atm im an engineer in a molecular biology lab btw, and ive been studying neurochemical psychology intimately for almost 2 decades, so theres no need to waste time with patronization.  "a dissociative experience arising from different psychological and neurological factors" is not "not real", especially when voluntary.  i can attest from personal experience that they do indeed register on an eeg, and ecg too ive read.  the anecdotes i could share with you would blow your mind; like a caterpillar hearing of 3-dimensional flight: questions will serve you better than assumptions.  im happy to oblige.  like you said though, time is precious.  im not hindu either, my parents were christian.  i like picnics.  respectfully, i do not want to derail the thread, but i would like to share a bit of additional reading

1 - http://physiologyonline.physiology.org/content/13/3/149.long

2 - http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=22935&t=1

3 - http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Tukdam

4 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu

5 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_body

6 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prahlad_Jani


please artu, a little respect for those for whom the self is nothing more than a sacrifice for others; especially in this thread.  this very day is built by men and women who have defied pain throughout history in favor of a better future.

i appreciate the condolences btw, it wasnt an easy few years, but ultimately the pain has actually helped me map my nervous system, and taught me a lot about how certain parts of the body are interrelated.
do you mind if i ask which vertebrae you had to have work on?

yielding to the law of causality proactively equates to the golden rule < is this a correct arrangement of words?

"There are a lot of nice people suffering horribly and bad people getting away with all kinds of snow."
time.  homeostasis is not inherently instantaneous.  all points in space-time represent unique energetic variations (distances from the big bang).  atm we are not communicating as a singularity.

materialistic science degrees that require a few years to obtain are simply pre school for a science that requires decades just to prep the lab.  the conditions required to obtain a state of meditation are infinitely more rigorous than any spacial experiment.  the results will astound you.

the truth is not on google, its inside you.  if youre honest.

"know thyself."
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frostysh
frostysh


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
posted February 08, 2017 12:12 AM

markkur -

Hehehe - thanx mr markkur, the hell I need a lot of luck. And to say for truth, main over 80% reason why I am still not crooked by life, not broken, and why I have the same principles that I always have - it is not my power of will , or something, but just a HUGE bucket of luck yeah...

Raenus -

And I will not count any blessing. I straight and simple, I have no enigma or something, and I always was like that in my life (truly wonder/mega_luck that I am still in "one piece" and alive...). My posts is the same as me - straight and simple, if I see something that I think *sux* usually I tell about that. If somebody think different - okay, not a problem, just explain it to me - WHY?

This moderator guy, have not banned me yet, okay, thanx I guess. But this is his own decision that he made.
If this users want to ban me from this forum - this is their own decisions, the end of story.

"And I have said, I do not care who and from the peoples are, only their decisions is make difference for me" - frostysh 2017AD

yogi -

Mr yogi, if you are Scientist, you may know that even an experiment in the lab must be repeated in the different place, many time to become a truth.
Your feelings and expressions is means nothing without confirmation. Human mind (as you may know, if you are neuro-somthing scientist) have an ability to imagine thing that is NOT EXIST in the real world .
Okkama-razor have no mercy to "self-spiritual-experience" that is biased like hell and can just a product of imagination of the another , well .... lets say the guy that likes to dream, like frostysh ^_^.

In short DO NOT TRUST TO YOUR MIND, and FEELINGS,

the neurons, the circuits, the chemicals can trick you . But perhaps, sometimes, it is even good, and help to the peoples . But this is not a real world or a Science.

Your links in the post above, is ridiculous as always (remembering some nonsense about stories of some women about "how healthy cherokee are" ) - this is not Science, this a tales.  .
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted February 08, 2017 01:49 AM
Edited by artu at 03:42, 08 Feb 2017.

@Yogi


Quote:
do you mind if i ask which vertebrae you had to have work on?
I had chronic hernia in the area of lumbar 3, 4 5 which kept coming back despite some exercises and two regular surgeries so in the end I had a third operation where they implemented a titanium piece in there which was pretty painful for the body to accept but it did gradually. For a few months, I had to practice to literally "walk again."

About the rest:

I'm not suggesting that the practice of yoga can not be beneficial in anyway, it can indeed be a method to practice self discipline and/or to improve the amount of control you have over your body. What I'm saying is "out of body experiences" are considered not authentic scientifically and whether you work in the field of molecular biology or how much time it requires to improve your meditation skills versus lab skills is irrelevant. Scientists can have personal beliefs that are unscientific, Georges Lemaître, the guy who came up with the Big Bang was also a Catholic priest, this doesn't verify the scientific validity of the Trinity though, does it? And that's what he said to his own Church as well, because as a smart man, he knew the difference. It is not a matter of googling things, I don't learn things from Google, I give links when convenient. It's quite mainstream knowledge (not something you read in a few internet links here and there but something you digest over the course of years through reading hundreds of actual books) that OBE's are not considered real since there is no "materialistic science" versus "non-materialistic science." Scientific method itself is inevitably materialist because it is based on naturalism, that is, to explain any phenomenon through observing facts of nature only. Now, since your consciousness is -very accurately- explained as the physiological process of your brain by that method, it would be incompatible for the basic fundamentals of that mind to be able to literally leave your body and travel around. We are talking about an ontological incompatibility here, not something that can be overcome by "leveling up" your meditation skills. You can learn to tolerate pain and walk on burning coal by meditation but you can't learn to breath under lava for instance, the mind leaving the body would be the equivalent of the second and it is against the core principles of everything known about how our brain functions. I'm sure, "the perception" of a journey can be very authentic sensually but perception is a very tricky beast and if we were to take all the religious experience perceived real by individuals as facts, a lot of religions with contradictory cosmologies and stories would have had to be real at the same time. (Not that astral journeys have to be specifically religious but the point still stands.)

Quote:
Yielding to the law of causality proactively equates to the golden rule < is this a correct arrangement of words?

Once again, causality is not necessarily dualist and more importantly, it is not normative, unlike karma. Social relations are a WEB of interactions involving people with different priorities, motives, values, perspectives, information, background, the list goes on... And I think at this point in history, when evaluating such interaction, we are way beyond the point of ancient reductions of good deeds versus bad deeds, people who deserve heaven or hell etc. To better summarize the difference between causality and karma, I will simply use an example of an overprotective father who, by his "deeds," causes her daughter to go into depression and commit suicide. Now, when we look things through causality, the father was inaccurate about how his actions would result regarding her daughters behavior. His intentions are irrelevant through the scope of causality and they can be nurturing and even morality driven from his subjective perspective. So how will karma place this in a symmetrical paradigm of good versus bad? The father is not suffering because he was bad, he is suffering because he was pushy. Life is not a computer game, we don't sign into good alignments or evil alignments. The golden rule can be efficient when it comes to obvious parameters such as lending a hand or not to someone who is about to fall off a cliff or not shooting people because you disagree with them etc. But many situations life throw at us are much more complicated and they simply can't be subject to such a rule. On paper, almost nobody disagrees with the golden rule, nobody objects "I will do to others what I don't want done to me, hihohahahaaaa." But we still have many conflicts in the world even between people who allegedly act according to the golden rule, don't we.

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted February 08, 2017 09:16 AM

If you ignore science about myths such big inventors like Tolkien dont tell abuot science. Dont use use word myth if you dont want to know what a myth is. Words are base of science. False word means false science.

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted February 08, 2017 09:17 AM

So the Bible forbids making oaths? Does that mean that the whole "ritual" with swearing on the Bible during a trial is against the very words written inside?

Quote:

"Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.'
         (Matthew 5:33)

"But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
         (Matthew 5:34)

or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING.
         (Matthew 5:35)

"Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.
         (Matthew 5:36)

"But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil.
         (Matthew 5:37)



It doesn't say that you only shouldn't swear, but that it is indeed a malicious act. So does that mean that oaths aren't sacred and are rather rendered null from a religious point of view?
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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted February 08, 2017 05:00 PM
Edited by markkur at 17:03, 08 Feb 2017.

LizardWarrior said:
So the Bible forbids making oaths? Does that mean that the whole "ritual" with swearing on the Bible during a trial is against the very words written inside?

Quote:

"Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.'
         (Matthew 5:33)

"But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
         (Matthew 5:34)

or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING.
         (Matthew 5:35)

"Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.
         (Matthew 5:36)

"But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil.
         (Matthew 5:37)



It doesn't say that you only shouldn't swear, but that it is indeed a malicious act. So does that mean that oaths aren't sacred and are rather rendered null from a religious point of view?


If you will imagine a society were "most" people "knew" God was the real deal and then;

"By God, I will..."
"Before God...I..."
"God strike me dead if..."

I hope Lizard that you did read my entire message about the usurpation of the "true" Christian Church, which of course means, when the vast majority of <clears throat> Church-leaders thought what was needed in matters of STATE, meant ignoring Christ...not walking the path.

If I may. when "reading Christ," always read the entire context, before and after HIS surrounding words. Modern practitioners of a vile and corrupt brand of, in truth, a non-Christianity based, supposed Christian-church...take single verses and bend and shape them to their will/fancy/purpose. However, that dead-practice does not end there, far too many, "self-ordained" and ignorant-believers, will also do the very same, due to either, i.e. immaturity, obstinate-convenience, some combative need or emotional justification. In the worst of moments...it is NOT a quest of learning, it IS fashioning another "BOARD or Mote (Depending) in one's own eye."

The fact is a Christian should never need to be in a court of LAW. Living by the Spirit is not following the 10-Commandents as if you were baking a cake. Living by Christ's 2 principles is freedom from the LAW because under the LAW, if you break one you break ALL.

Cheers LW...a very good question.


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