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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: AI of HOMM 3 revealed
Thread: AI of HOMM 3 revealed This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT»
Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted February 04, 2016 09:07 PM

Salamandre said:
I believe that Darklord maps are more than just "beautiful". They have a perfect structure, plot progression and difficulty.

+1
At least for the ones I played, great experience, would recommend anytime.

phoenix4ever said:
With Town Portal and Dimension Door the map just turns in to a contest of who can learn these spells and Wisdom, Air and Earth Magic fastest, whoever is lucky enough with this gets a huge advantage.

You're limiting yourself to casual multiplayer/hotseat experience which is not what Sal is speaking to you about, as usual you don't pay attention to what people tell you and start arguing with yourself again.

Quote:
Town Portal also means you only need one hero to defend all your castles.

That's actually extremely boring, lengthy and tedious approach, imo. In my understanding TP is being used because you have to, not because you need to.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 04, 2016 09:28 PM

phoenix4ever said:
Well I simply disagree with you Salamandre.



I don't see what is about disagreeing. I am only saying that, obviously, you started your mapmaking debuts without first intensively playing or analyzing the basics of H3 mapmaking, which are the maps aforementioned. Therefore you pass your time criticizing or being focused on irrelevant details which should not even be mentioned. You didn't observe and learn enough how other creative people deal with such details. This is an aspect which is obvious to anyone engaging a HoMM3 discussion with you, especially when your only reference to Heroes strategy is YOUR own map, which nobody has ever seen.
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Era II mods and utilities

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted February 04, 2016 11:25 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 23:45, 04 Feb 2016.

I simply don't like TP and DD, so I play without them. Maybe if they worked differently, but with expert Air and Earth I simply find them too powerful. And you always feel forced to pick Earth and Air Magic, leaving little room for Water and Fire.
Earth magic is just extremely overpowered, all the best spells are here: Slow, Resurrection, Animate Dead, Meteor Shower, Implosion, Quicksand, Force Field, Anti-Magic, Sorrow, Shield and Stone Skin.
Town Portal also has the side effect of making skills like Intelligence, Mysticism and Eagle Eye and Infernos Castle Gates nearly useless, I don't like that either.
And even without Town Portal I always pick Earth Magic.
Just because I play the game differently than you, does'nt mean I'm wrong.

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Casihasi
Casihasi


Known Hero
posted February 05, 2016 12:08 AM

I think Town Portal is very much needed on good XL maps.
Chaining troops around for the entire map is meh.
The challenge for a good map maker here is to keep it interesting and "dangerous" by making AI heroes & their troops tough enough, while also allowing the player to collect his troops as needed and travel fast.

I don't like fly & dimdoor thou, and think those should be only available at the end of maps.
Mainly because those turn a heroes map into Super Mario Bros. feeling for me, there are good reasons why those were banned in almost all good MP maps.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted February 05, 2016 04:47 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 05:06, 05 Feb 2016.

Casihasi said:
there are good reasons why those were banned in almost all good MP maps.

More and more I'm becoming convinced that what suits a MP Heroes 3 match is not necessarilly what suits a 1 x All gainst AI, much less on custom maps.
First of all, fighting just one other human being means that all game is directed to a single battle, with ONE hubber hero on each side; when you finnish this battle the game is over. This makes developing a second town or more then one hero wastes of time, for instance. On the other hand, on custom maps DD/Fly and even TP can be a problem, if they allow you to surpass the blocks or access towns that are there just to keep your hero alive, like in "To Kill for Power".
This is the map I was talking about the other day. I wogified it and one hero from Conflux learned TP from Eagle Eye, TP to one of his towns with the grail, to learn all the other spells, upgraded all elements but Ice to messengers and attacked me day 7, with a several years built of troops in a remarkable hero.

@Phoenix If I tell you I made a map where everyone starts with the Grail built but they have Strongolds, Ramparts and Fortresses and I have Tower, don't you think I am already cheating? But if you only play a single map, specially one you made it yourself, you are close to have the grail on Tower, you know (at least should) exactly where to move at a certain moment to maximize your profits...
This also tells me about why you think Miriam is good for main. You know what to expect from the map, you only don't know where are their mains at that precise moment, so you don't need to scout to learn about the map, you just need it to avoid being hit. Small details...

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
posted February 05, 2016 07:35 AM

bloodsucker said:
Casihasi said:
there are good reasons why those were banned in almost all good MP maps.

More and more I'm becoming convinced that what suits a MP Heroes 3 match is not necessarilly what suits a 1 x All against AI, much less on custom maps.



No of course it doesn't. I never thought that.


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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted February 05, 2016 09:07 AM

@Bloodsucker My map is an XL with underground and I made sure that the grail is placed randomly either on the surface or in the underground, so I have no idea where the grail is. Besides there are many obelisks so I very rarely manage to find the grail. Sometimes the ai do though, which is great because it gives a bigger challenge.
And just because I know the map Scouting and Miriam is still good, because I can find ai heroes, specific artifacts and plan where to go next.

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Sav
Sav


Known Hero
posted February 05, 2016 03:05 PM

RoseKavalier said:
RoseKavalier said:
Salamandre said:
Meh, thats an easy one, all enemies are 2 hexes, so all you need is to get cornered by dogs and one reduced behe stack, then your HP gets back every round, wait/attack and return, done.

I've seen AI fight very well, if you give him the right spells.


I think you'd be hard pressed to win it with your suggested method - there is only 60 spell points.

Anyhow, this is really meant to show 'stupid AI'. Here is a hint: this battle (same setup) is also easy to win (just long).
(Image)


Since no one took a bite at it, here's the solution... should be self-explanatory regarding AI logic - or lack thereof.

(Video)

Basically a variant of the Hypnotize trick.

On this video we can see the same AI bug to one which make AI 2-hex-wide creatures not attack creature behind firewall in case that firewall placed close to your creature (without free hex between).
AI often don't attack with 2-hex-wide creatures when for this attack it have to place them such way that their head will stay on more "dangerous" hex than tail (that can be firewall on head hex (and no firewall on tail), or, as in video, head hex is close to Cerberi and there is danger from Meteor Shower (and tail hex is not close to Cerberi)).
AI usually don't attack when it see that attack does too much of damage to other friendly stacks, not counting damage to attacking stack itself (other stacks can be damaged with dragon breath or enemy relatiatin in case it hit all creatures around), but due to specific way of checking this it adds the difference between dangers of head and tail hexes to value of damage to friendly stacks, which make it not attack also in cases like in video or with firewall.
So, this example is rather technical bug than general AI stupidility.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted February 05, 2016 06:54 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 20:30, 20 Feb 2016.

A taste...




and another



And now you can download it from here.

More Dragons, Please


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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted February 10, 2016 10:30 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 15:08, 10 Feb 2016.

And in this pic you see a situation I didn't tought about when making the changes...

Dargen is not a modified hero, is someone I put in a prison somewhere in the underground so that I don't have to find him in tavern.
He learned Diplomacy, something that wasn't in the customization of any of the heroes I put the prisons near their towns, so that they started with improved heroes. Since he came into play, Orange started to grow on power, now cleary beatting Purple, who started with Mutare Drake with an Azure in a Tower, surrounded by prisons with Tower heroes and Saurog and that I did found till now (Mutare, I mean).
Diplomacy is a snow, and is all the map is based uppon...

What about this for a mid game battle?


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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted February 10, 2016 09:43 PM

Does anyone know if the ai knows what is offered at a Witch Hut?
I mean a human player would always use a scout or reload if offered a bad skill, but will ai just take the skill without having any idea what is offered?
What about Universities, will they just buy all skills they can or how is this chosen?  

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 10, 2016 09:46 PM

Well, thats easy to test, so please also inform us about result.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted February 10, 2016 10:30 PM

Okay I did a little testing with an ai ally, so I could meet it with my hero and see what skills it had.

Witch Huts: Did this test 6 times each time with only one skill possible in the Witch Hut. I tested with Learning, Eagle Eye, First Aid, Mysticism, Logistics and Earth Magic.
Every time ai visited the Witch Hut, even when it was First Aid and he did'nt have a tent or access to one.
So I guess this proves ai don't know what is offered at a Witch Hut and will visit it no matter what.

For univerisities:
I tested it 4 times with 4 different ai heroes and made sure it had plenty of money.
It seems selective like a human player would be. It typically chose 1 or 2 skills.
Here are the results:
Crag Hack - Chose Ballistics did'nt choose Tactics, First Aid or Mysticism
Sandro - Chose Ballistics and Learning did'nt choose Eagle Eye or Scouting
Iona - Choose Fire Magic did'nt choose Wisdom, Learning or Leadership (Weird she choose Fire Magic, but not Wisdom)
Calh - Choose Logistics and Armorer did'nt choose Estates or Water Magic.
So with Univerisities ai seems to be picky, though choosing Learning is of course a bad choice.
 

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 10, 2016 10:35 PM

First test is not properly done, of course AI knows what is in huts, in universities, in your army, your stats and spells.

To test correctly, place two huts nearby one AI hero, one with a skill mastered by him then one skill not known. AI will always visit the one not known, if has interest in. It will NEVER visit a hut if he already has that skill.  

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted February 10, 2016 10:43 PM

Okay I did the first test like you said.
Tested with Gurnisson and he starts with Offense like all Barbarians do and he visited both a Witch Hut offering Offense and one offering Air Magic. He visited both huts even when he already had Offense...

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 10, 2016 10:51 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 22:59, 10 Feb 2016.

This is really strange, unless the huts blocked the road or visiting the hut allowed to save movement points. In my tests it never visits the huts with the known skill.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted February 10, 2016 11:37 PM

I wonder why we get different results.
I tested with a few more Barbarians and they keep visiting the Offense hut.
Perhaps in your test the ai had already visited the hut with a different hero and therefore knew what was offered, just like a human would?

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted February 11, 2016 12:11 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 03:20, 11 Feb 2016.

phoenix4ever said:
Perhaps in your test the ai had already visited the hut with a different hero and therefore knew what was offered, just like a human would?

I had this problem too, you imagine AI "thinks" like a human being. AI has a lot of information and yet doesn't use it properly, cause of the way is coded, it's all about the importance and distance between objectives.
An example, just a few hours ago I killed an hero that stopped three squares away from one of my towns, day seven. If he didn't visit the warehouse of mercury two steps away from the road, he would had reached the town that day but since it was much far away from where was the warehouse (and it was day 7 so it would lose the possibility of visit it that week) it "decided" that visit the warehouse was more important then take the town. If the warehouse was closer he would have taken the town first, cause it is a more important objective in the same reach  but since it wasn't...
And it was not because AI didn't "knew" where the town was. They are all allied and this was another AI player starting town, so he surely should knew it (if AI was a human being, I mean).

Another example of how AI knows things differently then humans: if you have 30ish Azures in a weak hero with Diplomacy, 20ish Azures will fight you but that Dracon you see there just got 36 Azures with just 28, some Archangels, Sorceresses and Sea Dogs (the dominant type being Azures, ofc). Without Visions you just see lots of Azure Dragons in all these situations.

Here another example...



P.S. I admit map is a work in progress but did anyone tried it? What did you felt? Is it too easy?
For me is still too easy but I know his secrets. If you try to find them during the game, I'm sure it will take longer (at least the first time) and AI will have enouch time to profit from the events, then becoming overpowered and if too late even unbeatable without first class tricks. But I can't ignore what I know, even if I try is just misleading.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted February 11, 2016 07:24 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 07:30, 11 Feb 2016.

Yeah I know the ai does'nt think, it just act how it's coded.
But it's a little stupid to prefer some mercury, if it could have taken a town, especially on day 7, when reinforments are perhaps there next day.

I haven't tried your map with Azure Dragons, sounds interesting, but hard to balance, to have 36 Azure Dragons join seems a little extreme. I don't think level 7 and up should join, but sounds like your map revolves around Diplomacy, so perhaps it's different.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted February 11, 2016 11:32 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 13:43, 17 Feb 2016.

My idea is simple: normal "Impossible" difficulty is they start with more resources then you and that's it. Here they start with selected secondary skills (good ones) and large improvements to all prims. They start with City Hall and all the required buildings (including MG 2 when needed) to be able to build to the last level and castle to the end of first week. Then all towns give progressive bonus to growth, starting day 1 with 50%, growing day 8 to 100% and so on, by month 5 they will get hordes of level seven each week and the money to buy them. I alsao deleted most of the normal dwellings and instead there are now 144 dwellings from wich much more then a half is Frozen Cliffs. The objective of the game is to accumulate 500 azures, so the faster you are with Diplo the sooner you will do it.
You find what I consider to be the three best heroes to get Diplo in prisons around your starting area and they all have quests specially for them, allowing to improve the Diplomacy skill. If you're fast enouch (and I am and know quite well where I want to go next) you can slaughter them before the bonus start to accumulate too much but I think an hero that survived unfeated for five months and a half will be imbbatible by any amouth of troops you can buy in towns and dwellins.
Your main is Dessa and it's a speed run for Diplomacy. If you get strong enouch early game you're imba, I still don't know what happens if not... Everytime I gave more things to the AI (they were quite less in my first try) but the better I know the map, the faster I can go and the less I give away early game.
The map has nothing new, in fact is the response to a need I was feelling in what I get for Huge random maps: a kind of dragon template. Only here the enemies are united against you and they have a lot of dragon dwellings in each of their starting areas, while you have none.
They hardly have enouch money to buy them all during the first weeks but without month of plage troops will accumulate safelly both in dwellings  and towns and after a while money will stop being a problem, since they have cumulative bonus to both creatures (in all towns they conquer) and money/resources but the seconds grow first and more. My propose is to accomplish the opposite of Impossible difficulty, you start quite easily and find a lot of goodies but so does computer and, as far as I know, of the type he can use.
I banned tavern for the first 7 days so that they free a bunch of ubber heroes from prisons around. Those heroes player can't buy and computer can't buy the ones player can and there are a lot of others desabled or in prisons. So in fact they circulate, you kill one and two weeks a month latter he is back in the same or some of the others hands.This also allows them to visit new powerups.
While they can't handle me anyway they keep having similar prims till a bit latter in game. And the faster I am the less I see gigantic armies on their hands but they will grow to a power one can hardly handle several weeks of growth quite early in game. But I am way too fast, so while I am enjoing what I am doing the power of knowing quite exactly whats next makes me think the map is way too easy. I don't know of any other opinion and I would gladly take yours, if you want to try it. It's hard to be the judge of your own cause.
I will update the link if you want.

This is the strongest enemy I ever found in HotA. And he has only one Strongold...


It is possible to kill all AI players before month three but these were the touchest battles I've ever played in HotA.

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