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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Football fans "feeding" coins to the refugees.
Thread: Football fans "feeding" coins to the refugees. This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
artu
artu


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Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 17, 2016 06:12 AM
Edited by artu at 06:15, 17 Mar 2016.

Football fans "feeding" coins to the refugees.

So, what do you make of this? A group of people throwing away coins at the obviously very poor refugees in the manner of feeding a zoo animal? This shouldnt be what people consider "having fun."

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Stevie
Stevie


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posted March 17, 2016 06:29 AM
Edited by Stevie at 06:29, 17 Mar 2016.

I think I'll ask the basic, simple question here: So?

Fans of soccer clubs do stupid things like that all the time, they're not in any way representative of a population. And technically, they were paying for their entertainment. Also, no one forced any of those refugees to pick the coins up and therefore "shame" themselves that way, they did that because they wanted to, and hastily so.

So I personally don't see the issue. It just appears to me that the OP is biased and wants to raise some pity for the refugees.
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artu
artu


Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 17, 2016 06:37 AM

I (or anybody else) never claimed they were representing the whole population, did I?

The refugees are not forced to pick the coins, no. But it is very obvious to realize they are desperate to have them, their situation forces them. And watching the thing, my first emotion was repulsion for the coin throwers rather than feeling pity for the refugees. The refugees will of course try to grab the coins, that's not surprising. More than a few people turning this into a circus kind of is, though.
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Stevie
Stevie


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posted March 17, 2016 07:09 AM
Edited by Stevie at 07:11, 17 Mar 2016.

You affirm they are refugees, so how exactly does a situation where they receive food, shelter and privileged treatment from the government force them to run for those coins? As refugees they should be taken good care of and there's no reason to suspect otherwise, which means that they were accepting that treatment out of greed and because money was more valuable than their public humiliation. It looks to me more of a compromise that they accepted, not a necessity for survival.

Of course, the video should instill disgust both because of the fans throwing the coins but also because of the refugees indulging the practice by picking them up. The blame for the circus which you mention goes both ways. Having more expectations from the soccer fans would be very naive of you.
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artu
artu


Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 17, 2016 07:20 AM

I don' think of football fans as some kind of neanderthal, Stevie. I'm not expecting them to act like the Bughingham royalty but decent human behavior is within my expectations.

And if you conclude rushing out for a few coins surely has to come from greed since they must have been taken care of splendidly... Well, keep on concluding.
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Stevie
Stevie


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posted March 17, 2016 07:41 AM
Edited by Stevie at 07:49, 17 Mar 2016.

Irrelevant if you believe them to be neanderthals or not. The point is that this kind of behavior was to be expected, and if you put it past them then you were naive. Fanatics are well known to get in all sorts of situations far worse than this.

artu said:
And if you conclude rushing out for a few coins surely has to come from greed since they must have been taken care of splendidly... Well, keep on concluding.


Did anyone said splendidly? Rather, sufficiently well enough to not be begging for survival.
And on the other hand, what you propose is that the mistreatment they receive from the authorities as refugees sends them on the streets to live off of people's pity and spare change. Or are you denying that?
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Elvin
Elvin


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posted March 17, 2016 07:52 AM

artu said:
I don' think of football fans as some kind of neanderthal, Stevie. I'm not expecting them to act like the Bughingham royalty but decent human behavior is within my expectations.

Too high expectations? In Greece some idiots burned a dog alive because it was black and white like the opposing team.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 17, 2016 07:58 AM

1- They are not hooligans of opposing teams strangling each other, they are casual people sitting in a cafe, drinking beer with their buddies and girlfriends. Fanaticism has nothing to do with the context.

2- You sound like you're under the impression that the refugees are sitting in their leather sofas in the shelter, smoking their Cuban cigars, drinking their cocktails and every once in a while, they go out to collect some coins to save up for their yacht. Look at the way they're dressed. If someone's sprinting out like cheetah to grab a nickle, it's pretty safe to assume they really, really need it.

It wouldn't even matter if they weren't refugees but regular beggars. This is not about the political situation. It's very simple, people beg for coins and some other people turn this into some kind of amusement. You don't like beggars, don't give them any money. But there is not a symmetrical shame that cuts both ways here.  
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Elvin
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posted March 17, 2016 08:26 AM

Considering the atrocities football fans have commited up to this day, throwing coins to the refuges is just cute.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 17, 2016 08:32 AM

Well, burning a dog sure beats it. I'll give you that.

And he doesn't mean you, StormGiant.
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Stevie
Stevie


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posted March 17, 2016 08:44 AM
Edited by Stevie at 08:45, 17 Mar 2016.

1. No, they are fans (from which the word fanatic actually derives, mind you) who are having fun at the expense of some refugees and beggars. And if you think fanaticism doesn't extrapolate to the situation, then you ought to understand group behavior more. Though soccer fans is already such a clear cut case.

2. Oh, no no. Au contraire. I definitely do not sound like that, but I do sound like that to you. Because I see no one else equating what I said, which is "sufficiently well enough to not be begging for survival", and what you said, which is blabbering about some cuban cigars, cocktails and yachts. You're attempting to paint a straw man with a reason I'm sure, but you're failing, miserably. Also, wanting something and needing something are two distinct things depending on the context. And I will stress this question which is begged if anyone were to believe that those refugees absolutely needed those coins and which you're avoiding to answer - do you honestly believe that the refugees are not properly taken care of in so far as to force them to humiliate themselves on the streets for a living? It's a simple yes or no question.

artu said:
It wouldn't even matter if they weren't refugees but regular beggars. This is not about the political situation. It's very simple, people beg for coins and some other people turn this into some kind of amusement. You don't like beggars, don't give them any money. But there is not a symmetrical shame that cuts both ways here.


Of course the context matters, political or not. Because extenuating circumstances would certainly make the actions of the refugees more understandable and less repugnant. They would then not be lazy beggars who wouldn't want to work, but victims of war. So establishing on which side of the fence they are is entirely legitimate and reasonable.

In the end the fact is this - that those fans were disgusting to display such a behavior, and that the refugees were disgusting to entertain it in return as I see no evidence they desperately had to humiliate themselves in that way.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 17, 2016 09:07 AM
Edited by artu at 09:51, 17 Mar 2016.

1- First of all, etymology doesn't always directly apply to semantics. Fan and fanatic can have the same root but they had eventually started to mean quite different things. And what you watch isn't about them being football fans (or plain fanatics). They are not behaving the way they are because of their group identity. A similar group psychology may have applied if it was a reunion of some classmates. Hooliganism is about what people transform their team support into through a group identity, it's basically a very twisted way of getting rid of that testosterone, that urges you to act aggressively. It's turning sports into clan wars and the foundation is already there. What we see here is not an act of aggression.  

2- Actually, had it mattered if they were refugees or regular beggars, then it would have mattered in a positive way for the refugees, not against them. Since, one can claim regular beggars who are citizens are too lazy to work but refugees recently out of some boat will be in poverty no matter how humane the conditions in a refugee camp are. Refugee shelters are not 5 star hotels, they are usually tents or some prefabric snow hole to put your head under.

And they ARE victims of war, just because they keep searching for slightly better circumstances, doesn't make them less of a war victim. Everything doesn't become swell once you cross that border, you keep living under very harsh conditions. Begging for a nickle isn't exactly an indicator of not getting satisfied with "sufficient" circumstances, is it? Finding yourself in the middle of Europe with no credentials, no money, no respect, no social connections, no language skills is not exactly the ideal fresh start. Yet, you mention greed as if they are collecting coins to buy luxurious stuff.

I'm not sure what kind of evidence you expect to comprehend that dehumanizing yourself to grab a nickle is the indication of poverty, not greed. The act itself is pretty transparent.      
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kiryu133
kiryu133


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posted March 17, 2016 09:51 AM

It's pretty despicable behaviour no matter how bad they've been otherwise or what people "should expect"(which sound more like victim-blaming than anything else). Despicable is what it is, no less.
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Stevie
Stevie


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posted March 17, 2016 10:35 AM

Let's say that I have my doubts that those are actually refugees in the first place when it's more apparent that they're actually gypsies. What comments I've seen on youtube seem to share the same view, like here for example - link.

It doesn't matter either way.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted March 17, 2016 11:11 AM

artu, recently you started your inner translations for several things, showing your papers at borders became closed borders, then became isolationism -as you wrote in the other thread, now I see the title of the video: BEGGARS, and you say refugee. Do you have anything to back your claims, because what I see is a couple of roms -clearly recognizable in Stevie's link - picking free money, which is usually what they do, when not addicted to ...ehm, some other activities.
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artu
artu


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Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 17, 2016 11:34 AM
Edited by artu at 11:36, 17 Mar 2016.

The first source I came across identified them as refugees, so did the two local newspaper articles I read about them afterwards. And so does the title of Stevie's link as you can read: "PSV fans throwing coins to the Syrian refugees" But yes, it is not a certain fact. Some sources say mainly understood to be refugees while others simply prefer beggars.

I can personally say they don't look different from the Syrians here, Syria is not heartland Arabia where people are much darker and I don't think it's possible to accurately distinguish people from the Balkans and western-Middle-East only relying on your eye. Both are regions where many similar looking ethnicity mixed up for centuries.

About closed borders and isolationism, that also had nothing to do with my "inner translations": It was the original expression in the article we were talking about:

Of course, seen in their original French context, they make absolutely no sense: closing the borders, exiting the Euro, a moratorium on immigration, expansion of la Francophonie “in the lands of Asia, the Americas, Europe and Africa.”

Naturally, that does not mean literally closing the border to every single individual, just like "open borders" does not mean anybody can walk in without showing any sort of identification. Both are expressions about immigration policies which are not mean to be taken 100 percent literally.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted March 17, 2016 11:46 AM

I am certain they are gypsies, and this is the result of Europe dying borders, the shock of civilizations. Those people are clandestine, being clandestine is a crime, so they should not be there in first place. There are poor countries and rich countries in Europe, this isn't a surprise for anybody, and by the past borders were in place to prevent having such desolate spectacles as in the video.

Some people have dignity and will prepare themselves before moving to a richer country then show the richness is something else than money, other will just hope for "humanity and compassion" and will show their lack of education while running after flying coins.

Being poor isn't a fate, your destiny is in your hands, and this is why such video lets me indifferent.  


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Stevie
Stevie


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posted March 17, 2016 11:53 AM
Edited by Stevie at 11:57, 17 Mar 2016.

Come on now... The title is given by the user, it's rather obvious they're just gypsies. I have a very hard time believing syrian refugees would go this far to humiliate themselves for money. By the way, none of the spanish news I linked reported them as refugees, only as beggars or women asking for pity.
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artu
artu


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Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 17, 2016 12:08 PM

Well, they can be. If you're both so sure, I won't object. My point wasn't about them being refugees in the first place, anyway.

@Sal

Whether being poor is fate or not depends on the magnitude of your poverty, unless you are extremely smart or talented in a certain skill. For most people who are at very the bottom, social mobility is not as flexible as it is for what we can call lower middle-class. For them, it's much harder to break the chain and move up the ladder. Lack of education even in the simplest things seals your "fate" to begin with.

But about this specific incident, to me, the significant part is this: Yes, the beggars are obviously uneducated folk but that already is the explanation of their situation. How about the educated ones that are throwing the coins? What's their excuse? It is one thing not to feel sad for the beggars, it is another thing to treat them like circus animals. Let's say you are witnessing an execution, and you even think the guy had it coming, he deserves the death penalty. Would you make fun of him while he is being electrocuted? Same thing here, if you don't care, just nod away.
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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


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posted March 17, 2016 12:30 PM

Well, maybe the people collecting the money were poor. But I'd rather pity those that are poor in "spirit". In this case, the football fans. Money can be easily be gained and lost, but not morality.

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