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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Top 10 things that must always be present in Heroes Of Might And Magic
Thread: Top 10 things that must always be present in Heroes Of Might And Magic This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
Sumsum
Sumsum


Adventuring Hero
posted October 09, 2016 03:33 AM

Top 10 things that must always be present in Heroes Of Might And Magic

*Note : This thread may not be posted in the right section of these forums. The moderators should move it to the right section. Also, I finished writing this at about 2:35 AM in my timezone. My apologies for any spelling typos, please let me know in a HCM of any mistake.*

For 20 years, we have seen the life of no doubt a legendary series of computer games called Heroes Of Might And Magic (ofc ).
It is very sad to realise that after Heroes V release, game designers from Ubisoft can not give anything more than this


or even approximately resembling the atmosphere of the game we experienced in Heroes III.
I love this series, and therefore to somehow organize my vision real Heroes, I decided to make my Top 10 things that must always be present in heroes.
I must say that I will not delve into the meaning of some terms and elements of the game so I will not disturb the general course of the narrative.
So, here we go.

1.First and pherphaps the most important thing that needs to be presented in any part of Heroes is diversity.
Diversity should be everywhere:
game factions, artifacts, magic spells, objects on the adventure map, and even resources.
There are 3 kinds of quest huts in Heroes III as you know.
They act the same way, but are visually different.
Heroes IV has as many as 16, for every taste and colour.
They could literally go with any story and plot.
Also, Heroes III has 8 kinds of two-way portals and 8 kinds of one-way portals.
Heroes IV has 6 kinds of two-way portals and 6 kinds of one-way portals.
But, starting from the 5th part, the developers considered such variety as odd and made just one possible kinds for each of these objects. And that is not the only case. You may say, what a trifle, but these are little things that make our favorite game what it is - unforgettable.
These little things increase it's replayability, the possibility of coming back to it again, and again over the years, without losing interest.
The quantity and quality of the factions are also very important.
Humans,elves,wizzards,demons,necromancers, underground inhabitants in some guise, and elemental masters, have become a symbol and a driving force of the entire series. Throwing away or altering these factions means going against the established and undivisable nature of the game and therefore making a big mistake.
Heroes Of Might And Magic Online released in September 2014 is a clear evidence. There were only 2 factions in the game. And that's why in my opinion, the project failed and was forced to be wrapped up.
The number of neutral creatures should not be small as well. But unfortunately the last 3 parts of Heroes cannot boast of a variety of neutrals, as well as the main playable creatures.
Just to remind you:
The original Heroes III game has as many as nine factions, and since then, this number has never been repeated in any of the following games.

2.Second thing that I could not reconcile with since Heroes V is the form of the cells on the battlefield. These stupid squares instead of usual hexagons spoil all the fun.
Heroes Of Might And Magic is not just a game. It is a TACTICAL game. Sometimes in order to outwit the opponent, you have to foresee their moves, for example to know if an enemy unit can reach your troops in the next turn or not.
But doing it became extremely hard, because you see, we now have large and small creatures, and the attack is possible even when the squares touch each other only by the corners.
Thus, large creatures have now 12 adjacent cells from which they can be reached and attacked.
But large creatures are present in Heroes III as well, you may say. That's true. They occupied two cells instead of one. But the hexagonal shapes of the cells were much more practical and clearer.
Now it is almost impossible to estimate a creature's path, and large creatures occupying four cells have become very clumsy.
They often find themselves blocked by obstacles or other units on the battlefield. And if you have decided to play only with large creatures in your army, for example phoenixes, you cannot put more than 4 units on the battlefield because of their large size.
This decision is likely to have been triggered by the transition to 3D graphics in Heroes V, and 3D models starting to occupy more space.
But for me, this was too much to sacrifice, and they could, for example, enlarge the cell, rather than change it's shape.
Sooner or later, they could get around this problem with the 3rd attempt in Heroes VII, but no, they still stick to the squares. Playing on a grid like that and with such creature proportions, I cannot help recalling how exquisitely and lovingly those hexagonal cells were combined once. By the way in Heroes IV the battlefield's grid was missing at all. Surely, some people believe that both types of the grid (square and hexagonal) are equally interesting in terms of gameplay, but I think differently, and I cannot forgive their transition to squares.

3.Third thing that should always be present in heroes is clear battle rounds and how they are determined. Let me remind you that creatures' speed is one of their main parameters in Heroes III, as it determinated not only how many cells the creature can pass in combat, but also the order of the creatures' turns as well. The ugliness in turn order began with Heroes IV. Creatures and heroes had their turns in the descending order of the values of their morale, and the values could range from -10 to +10. As for speed, it only affected the range of movement. It was virtually impossible to predict the order of the creatures' turns, especially if creatures had equal moral. In Heroes V, developers have gone even further and introduced a special characteristic for this, an initiative. It determined not the order, but the number of turns a creature can have in each of the subsequent periods of time. Phoenixes, for example, due to their high initiative, could have turn 3-4 more frequently than Peasants. Those invisible turns were merging into one long round and the button ''Wait'' wasn't postponing the creature's turn, but simply taking away it's current turn. The logic behind this button has disappeared completely, and it reduced tactical posibilities.
Fortunately starting with Heroes VI, developers came back with the usual turns with their full potential, but the dependency between the order of the turns and the creatures' speed, as far as I know, has never been restored. Although I personally think that such dependency was really graceful and adorable.
By the way, if there is anyone among you who played in Heroes VII more than an hour (100%, there must be at least one of you), please specify what exactly affecfts the order of the creatures' turns in a battle there.

4.Fourth place on my list is occupied by good opportunities for programming of the plot of the game and individual game events. It's not even about applying all of these opportunities in standard campaigns or game scenarios. The idea is to provide these opportunities. After all if there's something that developers were too busy to put in the game, the ardent fans will certainly do it. Just provide the needed functionality, and attach to the game what was not so important for you. What do I mean ?
None other than the diversity of gaming events, that can either be programmed to occur at a certain point, or be checked if they have already occured at a certain point. You just cannot imagine what incredible possibilities it opens before the mapmakers. Most thoroughly they have been implemented in Heroes IV, for what I value them most of all. It was possible to remove objects from the adventure map during the very game, with the help of a special event called <<bomb>>. Thus the passages to some parts of the map didn't exist in the beggining, but were appearing only after the hero was triggering some events. Those events could be anything. Those were not ordinary ones, like bringing an artifact, creature, or resource, reaching some levels or defeating some monsters. Those were combinations of these conditions. The condition might also be a visit to another object on the map that triggered an event after it, or completing another quest. Thus, quests could be tied together. Same thing with the rewards. It could be more than one award, but a combination of awards, as well as the activation of a chain of events that could change the properties of any object on the map or heroes themselves. In other words, you could program anything you want and how you want. Some mapmakers managed to create whole mini-games for a hero, similar to the game ,,Who Wants To Be A Millionaire'' with Yes and No answers, or battle arenas, triggering fights with certain groups of creatures. Something similar was also implemented in the fan-made mod for Heroes III, WoG. There, among other things, they managed to dynamically add and delete new units and obstacles on the battlefield, not present from the very beggining of the battle.
All these things make completing the map dynamic, unpredictable and, as a result, more interesting. Unfortunately, today, only fans can see potential in things like those. They have never been implemented by Ubisoft. It seems that these guys made something only similar to Heroes, so that they could just get paid, and then they quickly move on to the next project (R.I.P, btw).
As if they work not for people, but simply to keep their jobs.
These recent 'Heroes' lack their souls, lack the desire to create something beautiful, something worthy and ageless.

5.Fifth important component of any part of Heroes series is fully designed town screens.
We enjoyed those dynamic, animated and fabulous town screens in Heroes III. They were not only peasant to look at, but also reflected the spirit of each faction, it's essence, principles, history and ideology.
Also, town screens could tell us the progress of its construction at once, and each new building fitted perfectly, into the existing picture and brought the true pleasure from it's construction.
Heroes IV lacked this atmosphere, althought it was evident that Ubisoft has tried, if not surpass, then at least to repeat it.
And Heroes V introduced to us something really incredible: Camera flied around 3D town from all sides. All it's charms bathed in sunlight could be seen the way we wanted to. And oddly enough, starting from Heroes VI, town screens have lost their charming power. They were paid too little attention. At first Heroes VI didn't have town screens at all. That's the price of rushing to meet the deadline. While other game developers, seeing that the game is not quite as it should be, postpone the release date in order to bring it to perfection. Take Drake from Uncharted for example, or the Blizzard developers, or the creators of Metal Gear Solid. These people would rather die than allow themselves to release an unfinished game. They will not rest until the game in their opinions is perfect, and no matter how many times it will take to delay it's release. It's about how well someone can make games, and not about how well one can write scripts or draw characters. It's about dedication, taking responsibility for the quality, pursuing excellence rather than profit. Pherhaps people from Ubisoft do not realise that it is a perfect game that brings the biggest profit, and not what they have presented to us in the last years.

6/The sixth thing in my list is charming, reflecting the game's atmosphere though music. Music to all parts of Heroes was written by a great composer Paul Romero, along with Rob King and Steve Baca.
Each game undoubtedly has some catchy melodies, but the most unsurpassed melody in my opinion, is present in Heroes IV. Here you can find long, spiritual compositions, immersing us in fantasy atmosphere of the game. Music in Heroes III and V is also nice, but starting from Heroes VI things have become much worse with it. Although composed by the same composers melodies are inconspicuous and boring fast enough, given the long time of an usual game. Pherhaps the rush to meet the deadline, visible during development of the last two parts of Heroes series left its mark on this side of the game too. Music in the game should not only give us pleasure and strengthen the impression from what is happening, it should also be of high quality, performed at a high level, with the necessary number of professionals and musical instruments. People should have the same level of responsibility when making music, as when making the game itself.

7.The seventh place on my list is occupied by indirect involvement of the hero in the battle. A hero does take part in each and every battle he has, but his body does not participe in it, he just casts magic. We saw this mechanisms in the first three parts of the Heroes series, but in Heroes IV they decided to change it. The hero has become directly involved in the battle, and in case of death, the surviving creatures in the army could walk on adventure map on their own, dragging his corpse along with them, which could be resurrected in the nearest town. Heroes got their own parameters, such as life, defense and so on. Also, heroes could now unite and walk though the map in packs, as well as participate in battles. On the one hand, this innovation was a fresh breath in the Heroes Universe, but on the other hand, this scheme was too different from the traditional one, and many people did not accept it.
Starting with Heroes V, the developers went back to old combat mechanics, but with a slight addition. Now heroes could either cast magic, or do direct physical damage to the enemy unit, but only during his turn, not as any time once per turn, as it was before. I didn't like this last change. Now you know exactly when the enemy hero will make a move, and you can take advantage of this. Previously, when the hero could cast magic at any time, the battle was more unpredictable and thus more interesting. If I was the one to decide, I would certainly keep this hero's ability.

8.Eight thing that should always remain in Heroes series is the right for the first strike in combat. Again, Heroes IV related to this. Units attack each other at the same time rather than one by one. This developer's decision has become one of the most dramatic changes in the game, and it has more disadvantages than advantages. As a plus, in addition to the surprise, we can consider making the right for the first strike a separate creature's ability, that some of them have, as well as the ability to ignore the enemy's right for the first strike. And also a new spell giving such right. And that's all the tactical possibilities of this new feature. And the fact that it smashed the tactics of the whole battle is not taken into account. Now it was almost impossible to finish the fight lossless, and the previous inexhaustible desire to do this every battle, has lost all the meaning. And do not try to name arguments like ,,But now heroes can resurrect dead creatures using a skill''. Not all heroes can do this, and even if they could, we have a lot more fun when we use our brain to finish the battle without any losses, rather when we just upgrade the resurrection skill. HoMM is not just a turn-based strategy, it is also tactical strategy, and to remove such tactical elements like first strike, means nothing else than spoiling the whole game.

9.Next to the last place in my list is occupied by two things. sufficient number of resources types and the right to capture separate mines.
In Heroes VI, Ubisoft made some new experiments, which most of the audience didn't like.
Firstly, they reduced the amount of resources types from seven to four, leaving only one valuable resource - crystals. This decision is likely to have been made in order to simplify the game for the few people who live on the edge of the world and have never played Heroes. But we all know that the bulk part of the regular buyers of Heroes games are exactly the players with experience. It is no secret that the turn-based strategy genre itself is dying today, and is no longer of much interest to the young generation of gamers (The generation refers to as the majority of the buyers, as a lot of teenagers, and young games find their way here)
It is so to speak, classics for veterans having experience and some knowledge of the genre and particularly Heroes. Reducing the amount of resources is not justified by anything before these players, and it only spoils diversity. Another failed experiment from Ubisoft developers was disabling single mine capture.
Now their capture is not needed, but it is only necessary to capture sort of a dwelling, giving power over the surrounding areas and and all the mines that lie on it. Just as the previous change it also simplifies the game, but it does not make it more interesting. Simple does not mean interesting. Perhaps they wanted to make a game that can be played by little children. In that case they should have released another game for the adult people with more complicated and diverse elements. The complexity of the game mechanics and the diversity of its elements allow us to learn it for a long time, discover new things, reveal its secrets, admire them and learn how to play better. This increases the replayability and consequently, the dedication to the series. And if all the mysteries unraveled from the start, if everything is easy and simple and nothing to learn, you'll be bored by the game quite quickly and will not want to come back to it.

10.Tenth and the last thing on my list is none other than creature upgrades.
Of course this thing has got into the list only because of the mechanism of the game that we saw in Heroes IV where there were no creature upgrades at all.
But still I wanted to explain to you why it is so important, not only for me but for the success of the whole game.
Creature upgrades is like a gift for our game efforts and time spent playing. We get real pleasure from the process of upgrading.
And also these new and improved creatures delight our eyes, as they look more gorgeous and more powerful.
Take away this pleasure from us and the game will never be the same.
The only reason they did it in Heroes IV is to implement a new idea: choosing the type of creature to build in the town between two available. Now there are only four level of creatures, instead of seven, but each of them has two variants, and we have to choose which one to build.
The idea is original, but not very good, in my opinion. Creature upgrades is one of the base pillars of the game and it cannot be removed. Some parts of the game even have alternative upgrades, and even some mods have second upgrades. This clearly tells us that players like upgrading creatures very much.

Aaaaaand that was it. Thanks for viewing
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted October 09, 2016 03:37 AM

#1 in my book is a good, accessible map editor.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted October 09, 2016 09:53 AM
Edited by LizardWarrior at 09:53, 09 Oct 2016.

Well said, sir, well said. Agree with every point
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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 09, 2016 10:26 AM

Good list Sumsum, while I may disagree on some, most of them are true. One I miss the most, is classic creature lineup where town creatures was combined with different elements. Elfs and dwarfs fighting alongside, I pictured dwarf "stack" reprecented all the dwarven kind as with elves the same but Heroes 5 introduced race town line ups, while there where similarities to old lineups, some of them where just utterly boring. Blade Dancer, Blood Maidens and 6 different dwarf creatures. I liked the game but that was one step for wrong direction, imo.


In initial release of Heroes 5 there where no map editor but luckily they made quickly a pach and gaved it. Heroes 2 and 3 map editors where great as they where simple to use and you could fastly make prober map/playtest with them. Heroes 4 editor was suprisingly good that gave lot of possibilities to make unique quests, scripts and goals. Long time I tough Heroes 1 did not have a map editor (some reason the version I had, did not have it) later withnessed it was pretty similiar to Heroes 2 editor. If it's just for fooling around or serious map making project, the map editor is essential part of the game, what has been from the beginning and should always be part of HoMM games, like Corribus said.  

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Ereinion156
Ereinion156


Adventuring Hero
posted October 09, 2016 12:22 PM

One thing where I have to disagree with you is the initiative system.
I really liked the way it was done in H5, although that wasn't the classical approach. There are a lot of tactical options you win there.
I mean, this is making faster(high-initiative) minions much more valuable, as they can possibly attack more often. Also in H3 slowing a low speed creature with whom you are anyway already engaged in close combat is pretty pointless since it's attacking anyway as the last one. In H5 it's actually quite a good idea to slow down a treant or something with whom you are in close combat since he will actually act less and he's only got one retaliation per his turn, so you can just have your minions hack him down while he isn't really acting.

On everything else I have pretty much to agree with you, apart from the before mentioned map editor.

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Sumsum
Sumsum


Adventuring Hero
posted October 09, 2016 01:15 PM

Corribus said:
#1 in my book is a good, accessible map editor.


You are right, there are map editors, but I did not find a map editor in Heroes V, for example and I downloaded it from a DVD.

That means that unless I download that online, I won't be able to find an editor.
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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 09, 2016 02:38 PM

I liked the old speed system better. Heroes 4 separated movement and speed was for my liking but the fact Heroes 5 had no slow hero army moment penalty gave the slow initiative/movement troops little help. Heroes 3 & 4 downsideswhere just that.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 09, 2016 02:56 PM

OP's all over the place, very hard to read.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

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LordLydon
LordLydon

Tavern Dweller
posted October 09, 2016 04:05 PM
Edited by LordLydon at 16:10, 09 Oct 2016.

Quote:
Stevie:  OP's all over the place, very hard to read.


You can watch the original video that this is taken from... although it's still difficult to read.
Top 10 Things that must always be present in HOMM

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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted October 09, 2016 05:18 PM
Edited by b0rsuk at 17:25, 09 Oct 2016.

Sumsum said:

1.First and pherphaps the most important thing that needs to be presented in any part of Heroes is diversity.
Diversity should be everywhere:
game factions, artifacts, magic spells, objects on the adventure map, and even resources.
There are 3 kinds of quest huts in Heroes III as you know.
They act the same way, but are visually different.
Heroes IV has as many as 16, for every taste and colour.
They could literally go with any story and plot.
Also, Heroes III has 8 kinds of two-way portals and 8 kinds of one-way portals.
Heroes IV has 6 kinds of two-way portals and 6 kinds of one-way portals.
(...)


I disagree with how you define diversity. Heroes III has many, many units or artifacts with tiny differences. For me it's an example how not to design a game.
Lightning Bolt vs Cold Ray: One deals 20% more damage than the other. Wooohoo!!
Horned Demon vs Demon: 1/7 more HP, +1 speed, +2 gold cost. Woohoo! HOMM3 has so many creatures!!
Tier 7 units all seem to be designed using the 300HP, 25-50 damage, 3/week template. They don't stray far from it. There are 200HP archdevils but that's it. Technically Conflux differs but everyone calls it imbalanced.
Also, HOMM3 has more spells and spells that feel like buttons in a toy car. They don't do anything when you press them. View Air, View Earth, Disguise, Landmines, Magic Mirror, First Aid, Artillery, Mysticism are borderline useless.

HOMM2 and HOMM4 had diverse creatures just by number manipulation. For example you could choose between 3 Cyclops or 6 Ogre Magi per week. One is more vulnerable to attrition. 1 Dragon, 2 Hydras or 3 Thunderbirds on the same level. Note HOMM4 was also determined to give every single creature a special ability.

I appreciate when a game has more items/creatures/options that actually feel different. I'm not easily fooled by the same pile of numbers bearing two different pictures.
Quote:

3.Third thing that should always be present in heroes is clear battle rounds and how they are determined. (...) The ugliness in turn order began with Heroes IV. (...). It was virtually impossible to predict the order of the creatures' turns, especially if creatures had equal moral.

They are easy to determine. Imagine that high morale gives +100 to Initiative, low morale gives -100 to Initiative. Example:

Centaur has 4, Harpy - 5, Nomad - 8, behemoth - 6, Cyclops - 4, Berserker - 6. Creatures in bold got high morale, creature in italics - low morale. Now they will act from highest to lowest:
Nomad: 108
Centaur: 104
Berserker: 6
Cyclops: 4
Behemoth: -94
Harpy: -95

Either way, a creature can act once per round. Heroes V didn't like that! That system resembles the energy system from A.D.O.M. (Ancient Domains Of Mystery, a roguelike game). In ADOM, creatures and player have values like 880, 1050, 700, 230, 1700. Normal player turn takes 1000 energy. During the time when player acts 3 times, 3000 energy is spent, and a creature with 700 movement costs will act 4 times because 4 * 700 = 2800 and 2800 < 3000. The system is fine-grained and allows for greater flexibility. But it becomes a nightmare for a human to figure out in his head without external help like a movement track.

I know a board game which uses very similar system - Thebes.

I liked the Heroes4 system. H3 morale is notoriously bad. Not only it triggers rarely and you never know in advance, but also it can triggers when you don't need it, like when you're defending and don't want an extra move.

Quote:

4.Fourth place on my list is occupied by good opportunities for programming of the plot of the game and individual game events.

Disagree completely. I want my fantasy strategy game back. If you want a top-down RPG game, there,s Baldur's Gate, Pillars of Eternity, Torment: Tides of Numenera, Tyranny, and more.

A lot of M&M:H suckiness has to do with neglect of strategy game principles. High reliance on scripted events is like HOMM5 speed system, but for adventure map. It makes what's happening hard to understand and predict.

Music - it's not only worse composers and deadlines. HOMM5 music is very different fundamentally. HOMM1-4 have fantasy land music. HOMM5 has fantasy movie music. It's tailored from start to end, whereas HOMM was designed with replayability in mind, to spend many hours in the same environment.

Quote:
Now heroes could either cast magic, or do direct physical damage to the enemy unit, but only during his turn, not as any time once per turn, as it was before. I didn't like this last change. Now you know exactly when the enemy hero will make a move, and you can take advantage of this. Previously, when the hero could cast magic at any time, the battle was more unpredictable and thus more interesting. If I was the one to decide, I would certainly keep this hero's ability.

I can understand why they did it - Might hereos in HOMM1-3 feel very passive in a game that's supposed to be about heroes of might AND magic, not just magic.

As for fixed hero turns, maybe it makes AI programming easier ? But I never heard HOMM5 had stellar combat AI.
Quote:

8.Eight thing that should always remain in Heroes series is the right for the first strike in combat. Again, Heroes IV related to this. Units attack each other at the same time rather than one by one. This developer's decision has become one of the most dramatic changes in the game, and it has more disadvantages than advantages. As a plus, in addition to the surprise, we can consider making the right for the first strike a separate creature's ability, that some of them have, as well as the ability to ignore the enemy's right for the first strike. And also a new spell giving such right. And that's all the tactical possibilities of this new feature.

Tactical - yes. Did you consider "strategic" ?

Note heroes in HOMM4 no longer scale infinitely with their stats. Both spells and might powers come to a halt eventually. There are only so many ogres a hero can slice with a sword or burn with fireball. HOMM games never had any army upkeep, so armies just keep growing at a steady rate. Heroes level slower and slower, and as said above now have a hard limit.

In this context no first strike ability is useful, because it increases attrition kills. A warlock calling lightning on his enemies will remain useful for longer, because armies will remain smaller. Can you come up with an alternative system that makes sure heroes don't fall into irrelevance in late game ? It's not easy.

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sirironfist
sirironfist


Known Hero
King of the ogres
posted October 09, 2016 05:27 PM

Quote:
Throwing away or altering these factions means going against the established and undivisable nature of the game and therefore making a big mistake.


I disagree on that one. One of the best things about Heroes 6 were the new creatures it introduced, like the new units in necropolis. It even introduced a whole new town.
We need diversity, as much as Heroes 3 had or even more. But we also need new stuff. I mean in Heroes 3 it worked out as well. Fortress was a big success.
You need something that differs the game from the others. Heroes 6 has unique units which makes me come back to it by times. Heroes 7 doesn't have that.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 09, 2016 05:28 PM

LordLydon said:
Quote:
Stevie:  OP's all over the place, very hard to read.


You can watch the original video that this is taken from... although it's still difficult to read.
Top 10 Things that must always be present in HOMM


I smell a hefty dose of plagiarism here. Not cool.
Thanks for linking.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

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Sumsum
Sumsum


Adventuring Hero
posted October 09, 2016 05:45 PM

Stevie said:

I smell a hefty dose of plagiarism here. Not cool.
Thanks for linking.


Wrong. You might either pass it as literary adaptation, or simply a coincidence, I did not, repeat, did not copy from the video. Although what I said and what that guy said sounds almost EXACTLY the same, I swear, I did not in any way copy him. Take my although-suspicious word.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted October 09, 2016 05:56 PM

Sumsum said:
Wrong. You might either pass it as literary adaptation, or simply a coincidence, I did not, repeat, did not copy from the video. Although what I said and what that guy said sounds almost EXACTLY the same, I swear, I did not in any way copy him. Take my although-suspicious word.


naaah come off it mate, your post literally transcribes text from that video, word for exact word and idiosyncrasy for idiosyncracy, come on you clearly copied it lol

I don't judge you for copying it, but come on at least do admit you copied it lol
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Sumsum
Sumsum


Adventuring Hero
posted October 09, 2016 06:07 PM

verriker said:
Sumsum said:
Wrong. You might either pass it as literary adaptation, or simply a coincidence, I did not, repeat, did not copy from the video. Although what I said and what that guy said sounds almost EXACTLY the same, I swear, I did not in any way copy him. Take my although-suspicious word.


naaah come off it mate, your post literally transcribes text from that video, word for exact word and idiosyncrasy for idiosyncracy, come on you clearly copied it lol

I don't judge you for copying it, but come on at least do admit you copied it lol


Ok, I give up

I just found that really helpful, and thanks to the video, I now understand a lot of strategies, and I also agree with his opinions, so I had to share it.
Well, I don't know, I didn't play Heroes since I was like 3 years old, so yeah.
My bad, again.
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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 09, 2016 06:12 PM
Edited by Geny at 18:12, 09 Oct 2016.

In my experience there's one thing that really must be in Heroes of Might and Magic, not so much because it's good but more so because it's been around since HoMM 3 days. Are you ready for it?

Past-obsessive fans who can't accept any innovation to the series.

But since you went through the trouble of writing all this down, I'll give you the respect of addressing every one of your points.

1. Diversity

You started really well talking about game factions, artifacts, magic spells, objects on the adventure map, and even resources. Except then you probably realized that Ubi games had their share of all of them (except maybe resources in VI) so you moved the discussion to visuals of quest huts and portals. Once again, visuals of quest huts and portals. Truly the most important and essential part of the series.
Then it seems as though you're gonna talk about the diversity of factions, but once again you must have remembered that there's no actual problem in diversity and you instead said that the new diversity is different from the old diversity and therefore bad. Yeah... an objective observation indeed.
And to top it off you mentioned Heroes Online which was never really considered as a part of a series.

2. Field Cells
Now I'm not gonna lie, I prefer the hexagons to squares myself. I find them more intuitive. However, that does not make them an essential part of the series. This is a common trait of tactical TBS games and not something Heroes specifically is known for. It does not mutilate the game to have square cells. In fact, it's nothing more than personal preference.
And by the way, I highly doubt that the reason for squares is 3D models, because Age of Wonders 3 pulled it off quite nicely.

3. Battle Rounds
Again, nothing essential about that. In fact, this was a noble attempt from the creators to make something unique (to the best of my knowledge) to the series. Something that would stand out. As someone already mentioned, initiative bar is not a bad thing, it's a matter of opinion. For example, in my opinion, separating speed and initiative was a great choice because it gave more depth to creatures. As for "wait", it did not become irrelevant, simply changed it's meaning. You could no longer just hit all "wait" to reverse the turn order, you had to decide when it was really crucial to wait in order to, for example, let someone else soak up a retaliation.

4. Game Events
From what I read in this paragraph, I gather that you mean a good map editor. On this one I agree. It is indeed essential. But not because it is something that Heroes is widely known for, instead is is important because every good strategy game should have a good map editor for the community to grow.

5. Town Screens
Ok, I'll give you that one. Town Screens have always been a staple of the series and their implementation is not a matter of opinion. They are either there or not, either good or not. Then again, there was a slip-up in HoMM VI only, that as far as I know was rectified later.

6. Music
Once again, I agree. Because once again, good music is not a matter of opinion. A good game deserves good music. Then again, I just started playing HoMM IV recently and aren't they using pretty much the same music as V?

7. Hero in Battle
I'm actually torn on this one. I want to say that many people like having heroes in combat and it is a viable option, but in my opinion, binding an army to a specific hero really is essential. The game is called Heroes of Might and Magic. It has always been centered around them. And that is something that set the game apart from most other TBS games where you could have an army roaming around without a leader. So reducing a hero to a glorified unit, is indeed in my eyes a mistake that goes against the game's spirit.
That being said, the way the hero is implemented in battle is not that big of a deal in my opinion. I would not even mind if the hero was a unit, as long as he was the only leader of the army as well, so if he gets killed the army is disbanded or you have to waste resources to resurrect him on the spot (akin to Eador).

8. Retaliation
Same answer as battle rounds. Retaliation was there because it was everywhere. The developers tried something different. It made you think differently, yes. Now it was not a question of how to win without losses, but instead what losses are acceptable? This does not make a game less tactical though. In fact, it could be argued that it made it more complex as you needed to decide each battle what you are willing to sacrifice to win.

9. Resources
I will agree that the number of resources are a staple of the series, because they did not change since game 1, so they sort of became iconic and there was no reason to change them. I don't agree that the same is true about the method of mine capture. What really interesting here is your reasoning, but I'll get to that in the end.

10. Creature Upgrades
On this one I will agree. Creature upgrades were in the game since HoMM II (which is where the series really blossomed for the first time) and while not completely unique to the franchise, it is a mechanic that is not used in every game and was implemented in most of the series, sometimes going so far as making alternative upgrades (which, by the way, happened in Ubi days). I also wouldn't mind seeing the style of HoMM II again, where some units had upgrades, others didn't and one had 2 upgrades.

In summary,

What irritates me about the opening post and many other posts in different Heroes communities throughout the years, are not the points you raised here. They are all valid in their own right. With some I agree, with some I don't. What irritates me is the title. "Top 10 things that must always be present in Heroes Of Might And Magic".
Says who? You? Who are you to decide that? A loyal fan? Well, so am I. Are you better than me? Just to be clear, this is not meant to be insulting. I just want you to understand how you come across to people who are actually willing to see the series change.

While talking about resources you said that the game should be marketed to veterans. Why? Do you have numbers that justify that claim? On this forum alone I have seen people who started playing the series on its fifth installment. Why should the developers only care about the people who fell in love with HoMM III and are unwilling to let it go? Why are they not permitted to let the game change and evolve?

And that is my main grudge with a big chunk of Heroes fans. The fear of change. The fear that the new game will not be the same as their idol. Mind you, I did not say "will not be as good as...", I said "will not be the same". And I stand by it. I have an enormous respect and love for HoMM III, but refuse to let those feelings destroy future installments by criticizing them into the ground for trying something different. Something that you and others like you seem to excel at.

Sorry for the rant, but I wanted to get that of my chest for a while and you gave me the perfect opportunity.

Oh... and welcome Heroes Community.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 09, 2016 08:02 PM

Geny said:

Past-obsessive fans who can't accept any innovation to the series.


Imo, this should be classed in two categories:

a) Lore fanatics
b) Hardcore players

The lore fanatics already did lethal damage when they killed the Forge town and consequently the H3 team. Opposing a veto because an ideological ground is, as in real life, unproductive.

But then, related to gameplay, conservative hardcore players should have a voice, because they obviously know the game pretty well, they know what is missing, what is working, then what need to be fixed. Recently I had an interesting experience, where I came to play a few games and their sequels. On top, I would describe my experience with Civ5 as disappointing, while the transition from civ2 through 4 were fluid and quite an enjoyment. Then also was playing Titan quest the other day, and then bought the sequel to it, Grim Dawn. Same team, same design, I was happy to find untouched all that I enjoyed in previous, same interface, same mechanics, so the "take in hand" was great, then a lot of innovative things while the base structure remained similar. Guess what, if they design a third one, I am sure I will buy it. I can't say same for Civilization games, I will suspiciously take a deep look at 6 and think before buying it.

So my bottom point is: avoid innovative things for the sake of, which will often result in a atmospheric modification, but add them only when they miss or are commonly asked. Don't design a sequel like it should be the "Ultimate" of that series, the best, the most perfect. Go slowly, prudently, keep what made its past successes, and also keep room for further improvements over the new features, if, after reviews analyses, passed the test and proved that they work and fit.

My advice to developers: stop thinking you are smarter than those who build the sequels which worked.

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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 09, 2016 08:08 PM

I don't mind people having a voice. I'm all for community involvement. And yes I agree, in a series of successful games change should not be drastic (although I disagree that has to be asked for, sometimes you don't know that you wanted it until you tried it).

But I would split that hardcore players group into yet two other groups:

1. Those who are willing to give change a try (or at the very least serious consideration).
2. Those who don't.

And the latter are (at best) doing nothing to help the series.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 09, 2016 08:25 PM

I don't say the team has to ask players opinions, I say the designers must know what players commonly ask for, which is something different. Gameplay flaws are not opinions, are technical facts.

When you build a house, you would still want to have a solid foundation under, have a locked door, transparent windows, walls, wiriness, water tubing, floor and roof. Actually, starting with H5, the door takes longer and longer to unlock, so with H7 you spend 2-3 minutes while trying to enter in your own house. The interfaces are so visually conflictual each other that now you have to do 10 clicks for having the infos you had in H3 for one click only.

Then the editor, which is the core heart of this game, whats this pathetic poop? A game editor should never be similar to 3D max in complexity, but tease the curiosity and the enjoyment of any fan, from amateur level to expert, you open, next second you can already start design your own world. As it is now, it takes up to 5 minutes to open, then the interface is like the Hubble telescope, then it crashes randomly, and so on.

So I am for adding things, not for "changes". As we see now how changes basically screwed this gale future.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted October 09, 2016 09:30 PM

Geny said:
But I would split that hardcore players group into yet two other groups:

1. Those who are willing to give change a try (or at the very least serious consideration).
2. Those who don't.

And the latter are (at best) doing nothing to help the series.


I think you are championing a fairly tired, overstated and oversimplified misconception which trumps up on the lowest common denominator at the expense of the wider critical fanbase lol

for all the old talk of nostalgia conservatives holy H3 and many people being too close minded to give anything new a chance, bear in mind H5 and H6 were according to Erwin the highest selling games in the franchise,
millions of players shelled out full price for those titles, I think a lot of us were more than willing to be impressed, and in the case of H5, we more or less were, as that game's reputation became quite good with patches lol

the sales declined very, very sharply however for H7, which was actually billed as a game closer to the roots of Heroes, indicating people are not worried whether or not the game replicates H3, they were just not impressed by Erwin's specific choices lol

realise there is a big distinction between denouncing something because it is new, and denouncing something because it is ****, lol

and yes, it's a fact there are some lowest common denominator people who will say it sucks because it's not H3, but it's also a fact that none of the post-H3 games have been as polished and as complete as that one was, so lol
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