Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Worst hero class in HOMM3
Thread: Worst hero class in HOMM3 This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV
Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted October 29, 2016 08:31 AM
Edited by Ebonheart at 08:34, 29 Oct 2016.

By W3/W4 the match is over in most cases for me. I normally go with a hero I get during W1 to be my main unless the selection is horrible. So for example, if I did get Mephala but no "brute hero", then I would go with her.

And well, finding Mr. Hack in a tavern on the first day is certainly best for any town.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
HeymlicH
HeymlicH


Known Hero
posted October 31, 2016 06:36 AM
Edited by HeymlicH at 06:40, 31 Oct 2016.

HeymlicH said:
You seem to fail to understand how secondary skills are selected for might heros. Rangers, Overlords, Barbarians and Beastmasters are guaranteed to get earth magic.



bloodsucker said:
No, you fail to understand that. No magic school is guaranted to any class, put a box with 100.000 XP and take notes of the skills offered, repeat about 100 for class. You will see.


Ebonheart said:

As some people already pointed out, I don't. I do not deny the fact that the chances for Earth Magic are higher for said heroes, but higher is not the same as guaranteed.



Guaranteed means guaranteed. I will get earth magic 100 times out of 100 attempts, with these 4 hero classes. If you don't understand that, then, well ... you just don't understand it

Actually I thought these things were common knowledge by now. It is not that hard to figure it out, and it also has been discussed in this forum excessively, a few years ago.

With a Ranger, BM etc you are guaranteed to get both, earth and wisdom, if you want that.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted October 31, 2016 07:48 AM
Edited by Ebonheart at 07:49, 31 Oct 2016.

You really astound me.
Basically what you are saying is that if I roll a dice 100 times I am guaranteed to get a 6 at least once.

There is nothing in this case that makes my chances of getting a 6 guaranteed - I will always have a 1/6 to  roll a six. Granted, my chances are HIGHER if I roll 100x times, but that is not the same as guaranteed.

Guaranteed in this case would mean that if I roll the dice 100x times I would get a 6. The only way for that to happen is if there is only one symbol on all sides of the dice - namely number 6.

Your chances are high to get Earth Magic, but there's never a 100% chance that you will.
You can only say "guaranteed" to get Earth Magic if we hire a hero like Grindan to get it - because he starts with it. That is a 100% chance.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
firespirit
firespirit


Famous Hero
with warm hands
posted October 31, 2016 07:26 PM

Ebonheart said:
You really astound me.
Basically what you are saying is that if I roll a dice 100 times I am guaranteed to get a 6 at least once.

There is nothing in this case that makes my chances of getting a 6 guaranteed - I will always have a 1/6 to  roll a six. Granted, my chances are HIGHER if I roll 100x times, but that is not the same as guaranteed.

Guaranteed in this case would mean that if I roll the dice 100x times I would get a 6. The only way for that to happen is if there is only one symbol on all sides of the dice - namely number 6.

Your chances are high to get Earth Magic, but there's never a 100% chance that you will.
You can only say "guaranteed" to get Earth Magic if we hire a hero like Grindan to get it - because he starts with it. That is a 100% chance.
It's not the same as a dice roll. What you don't realise is that might heroes are offered a magic skill at least every 4 levels. If you pick all magic skills that are offered and keep enough free skill slots, you will get Earth every time (this concerns the classes that have 3 schools available for them). Even if you don't pick all magic schools that are offered, Earth is very likely to appear. Likewise, Wisdom is offered every 6 levels at the very least.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted October 31, 2016 08:14 PM

firespirit said:
...
Yup, and that's why I am pretty sure you may not be able to pick all three schools.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted October 31, 2016 10:09 PM

firespirit said:
It's not the same as a dice roll. What you don't realise is that might heroes are offered a magic skill at least every 4 levels. If you pick all magic skills that are offered and keep enough free skill slots, you will get Earth every time (this concerns the classes that have 3 schools available for them). Even if you don't pick all magic schools that are offered, Earth is very likely to appear. Likewise, Wisdom is offered every 6 levels at the very least.

It's the same as a dice roll because in neither example nothing can be guaranteed (aka 100%).

What you describe is called selection. You pick your choices to increase your chance of getting it. I even went on to test your way and the answer was that in some cases I was offered Earth Magic and sometimes I was not, despite picking any magic skill that came up and only levled up current skills, with the heroes in question. Same issue arose with Wisdom. If it was a 100% chance to be offered a magic skill within 4 levels I would be more inclined to agree. Alas I did this with each Might Hero class 20x and sometimes I was offered magic at lv 3, sometimes at lv 5 and so on to a max span of lv 9.

There is also another small crux in play - the level range. There is one thing to say "I am guaranteed to get Earth Magic", given any level can be reached and another when you have a limited level span. So saying a for example, that a ranger is guaranteed to get Earth Magic - if within the level span would always be offered the skill if selecting any magic skill that comes up - is losing its lustrous if the actual use span is lower, say before lv 12.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
firespirit
firespirit


Famous Hero
with warm hands
posted November 05, 2016 11:42 AM
Edited by firespirit at 12:05, 05 Nov 2016.

Maybe you should test it properly to see what happens. Like we talked before, this is about a hero class with 3 magic skills available (Overlord, Barbarian, Ranger or Beastmaster). I tested this 100 times and ended up with Earth Magic plus the other two every single time. Wisdom too if you care about that. The method is as follows:

1) Always pick a magic skill that is offered.
2) Pick Wisdom when it's first offered (i.e. by level 6).
3) Do not pick up any new skills other than magic unless forced. This guarantees that you level up the magic skills as quickly as possible.

I'll show you why it works, not just in practice but in theory as well. Let's assume the worst case scenario (that you get your first magic school pick at the latest possible level (4) and are only offered new magic skills when the 4 level timer resets (so no extra picks randomly).

Level 2: Level up starting skill or pick up a new one if you had 1
Level 3: Level up starting skill or pick up a new one if you had 1
Level 4: Magic skill 1 (Always offered by the 4th level.)
Level 5: Level up an existing skill
Level 6: Wisdom (The choice is always given by the 6th level.)
Level 7-11: Level up all skills to Expert, not picking up any new ones. At level 11, you will have four skills at expert level: a magic skill, wisdom, and two other skills. Let's assume the worst: that you maximised the magic skill as late as possible (level 11).
Level 12: Now you are offered a random skill. Pick it up and keep leveling it. This is your 5th skill.
Level 13: Random skill 1 Adv.
Level 14: Random skill 1 Exp.
Level 15: Magic skill 2 (The game will offer you one because it's been 4 levels since you last got offered a magic skill.)
Level 16: Magic skill 2 Adv.
Level 17: Magic skill 2 Exp. (Now you have 6 skills at Expert level.)
Level 18: Random skill 2
Level 19: Random skill 2 Adv.
Level 20: Random skill 2 Exp.
Level 21: Magic skill 3 (It's been 4 levels since you got a magic skill offered. This is your 8th skill.)

As you can see, even in the worst case scenario, you will get all 3 magic skills by level 21. I'm not saying that this is the way you should choose your skills, but I am saying that Earth is indeed guaranteed for some hero classes if you really want it.

Of course, this method means that even though you get Earth, you will also get either Fire or Water magic (unless you are offered Earth and Air before them and decide to ignore the last magic skill on later level ups). You can also get bad random skills. That's why it's probably not the ideal way to play the game. This approach can be altered a bit to avoid those random skills while still keeping the chances of getting Earth extremely high. Luckily, especially Beastmasters and Overlords are naturally disposed towards getting Earth Magic. In fact, it's often the first magic skill that will be offered. It's not likely that you'll miss it even if you slightly change this approach.

You can try to forgo Wisdom at level 6 if you want, but that's somewhat risky. If you get Expert Magic skill 1 at exactly level 8, the game will try to offer you both Wisdom and Magic skill 2 at level 12. Wisdom will win and you'll miss the magic skill. But if the magic skill and Wisdom aren't going to overlap, there won't be any problem.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted November 05, 2016 04:12 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 16:16, 05 Nov 2016.

I need to ask Firespirit, if you are doing this on WoG or any other HoMM 3 version than HoMM 3 Complete.

I have run multiple tests with all the might (seperated result trees for each town-type candidate) heroes and here are my results:
1. I have been offered my first magic skill in between L2-L12. Not automatically at level 4. The highest % chance for magic skill came at lv 3 and 5.
2. Wisdom has been offered on a span on L2-LX. No 100% at lv 6. The highest % chance for Wisdom was lv 8.

This has been done over and over with the same instructions you posted. In the end, the % for earth magic was high, but not 100%.
So either my version has some severe issues to it (which also means I have been playing at a disadvantage for the last 10+ years) or you have been extremely lucky (I honestly pray for the latter, cause otherwise it means I have had a much harder time vs the map - never knowing when to get magic.)

Edit: If it should be a guarantee at lv 4 to get magic then I retract my statement, for then it makes it all possible.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
firespirit
firespirit


Famous Hero
with warm hands
posted November 05, 2016 04:23 PM
Edited by firespirit at 16:35, 05 Nov 2016.

My version is H3 Complete. And yes, you will always get magic skills at least every 4 levels if using a Might hero (or an Elementalist). The latest possible level to get your first magic pick is always 4. The details of level-up information are listed quite nicely in this guide, among other things. Maybe you would like to take a look: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B29K9wqYz_uSNDkwMDk2ZDItNDkwNy00MzlhLTkzYzUtYmJiODdiOTgzOGRm/view

Please also take into account that I'm not talking about ANY might hero when I'm saying that Earth Magic is guaranteed; I'm talking about Barbarians, Beastmasters, Overlords and Rangers. The other might heroes will also get at least 3 different magic schools this way, but Earth might not be one of them.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
HeymlicH
HeymlicH


Known Hero
posted November 05, 2016 06:29 PM

It works like this on H3 complete, and it worked in Armageddons Blade and Vanilla, too.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted November 05, 2016 07:49 PM

firespirit said:
My version is H3 Complete. And yes, you will always get magic skills at least every 4 levels if using a Might hero (or an Elementalist). The latest possible level to get your first magic pick is always 4. The details of level-up information are listed quite nicely in this guide, among other things. Maybe you would like to take a look: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B29K9wqYz_uSNDkwMDk2ZDItNDkwNy00MzlhLTkzYzUtYmJiODdiOTgzOGRm/view

Please also take into account that I'm not talking about ANY might hero when I'm saying that Earth Magic is guaranteed; I'm talking about Barbarians, Beastmasters, Overlords and Rangers. The other might heroes will also get at least 3 different magic schools this way, but Earth might not be one of them.

Are you 100% certain of this? Because I just had 3 of my friends run the same task and their results (although different in skills offered) are the same as mine. Magic was never provided for sure at L4 and same went for Wisdom at L6.
However, we did notice that for all of us, either Offense/Armorer/Archery was always offered at L3 unless we had them already.
I really wonder what is at work here.

On a side note, pardon me though for shifting the core topic of this thread.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dodo_bird
dodo_bird


Adventuring Hero
posted November 05, 2016 11:48 PM

It's minimum every 4 levels. If you get it by chance at lvl 2 or 3, the count resets.




 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
firespirit
firespirit


Famous Hero
with warm hands
posted November 06, 2016 09:06 AM

Exactly. It's not always at level four, because it may randomly appear before that as well. Four is the level that the game forces your first magic pick if it hasn't been offered before. After that, it's at least every four levels. Also take into account that improving an existing magic skill resets the magic counter, not only picking a new one. Wisdom may also randomly appear before level six, but if it hasn't, the game will force it to appear then. You and your friends should really take a look into the guide I mentioned.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted November 06, 2016 09:35 AM

firespirit said:
Exactly. It's not always at level four, because it may randomly appear before that as well. Four is the level that the game forces your first magic pick if it hasn't been offered before. After that, it's at least every four levels. Also take into account that improving an existing magic skill resets the magic counter, not only picking a new one. Wisdom may also randomly appear before level six, but if it hasn't, the game will force it to appear then. You and your friends should really take a look into the guide I mentioned.

I read the entire guide mate, but like I said, it can pop up at any level for us. The only thing we have had in common is that Offense/Archery/Armorer are always offered at said level instead.
I even booted up my old PC which had H3C and tried it, the results were the same. I don't know why we get different results but I think we can conclude our "gaurantee" argument to be over due to this. In your case you have a gaurantee given you are ready to sacrifice potential skills to reach Earth Magic, whilst in my case it does not matter.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV
Post New Poll Post New Topic Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0574 seconds