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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Is racial factions really bad?
Thread: Is racial factions really bad? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted November 12, 2016 12:23 AM

Is racial factions really bad?

I know, I know. The idea of racial factions is far, unthinkably far, from popular here. And yes, that is to some degree true. It does not lay to question that the racial factions of H5, H6, and H7 falls behind the thematic factions of the old heroes. That is not to say that the thematic factions didn't have any flaws, such as humans being overly present in EVERY bloody faction, even if it might have been better to leave them out.

So, here is my proposal. Pseudo-racial factions. In heroes III, every faction's heroes where one of three races, however the one of which where always human for some gods no what reason. Not that it didn't make sense, it did in factions such as Tower and Necropolis. Anyway, the idea is that every faction have three races, varying for every faction.This aids the thematic part, but also makes the heroes feel more different from each other than human from faction a + the odd allies VS humans from faction b + the other odd allies.

For and exsample, Stronghold would have Orcs, goblins, and a final race such as centaurs, ogres, trolls, or whatever fits, while Rampart would have elves, fairies, and potentially even treant heroes.

Basicly, more diversity in the heroes, but less humans.

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted November 12, 2016 12:31 AM

Races vs Themes thread.

Don't be afraid to necro, if thread was good.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted November 12, 2016 07:27 AM

Galaad said:
Races vs Themes thread.

Don't be afraid to necro, if thread was good.
Necroing isn't necessarily bad, but that thread's already been resurrected once, and that was over two years ago.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted November 12, 2016 08:49 AM

Yeah, kinda my bad. Though technically this isn't necroing, as I'm proposing the idea of factions centered around a number of races beside the theme.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted November 12, 2016 10:22 AM

Only if every race (or at least every practicable one) has representative heroes, not like in H3 where we missed heroes for:
Tower - Gremlins
Inferno - Imps(?), Gogs, Pit Fiends
Dungeon - Harpies(?)
Stronghold - Orcs

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted November 12, 2016 11:07 AM

MattII said:
Only if every race (or at least every practicable one) has representative heroes, not like in H3 where we missed heroes for:
Tower - Gremlins
Inferno - Imps(?), Gogs, Pit Fiends
Dungeon - Harpies(?)
Stronghold - Orcs


That is true (maybe except for inferno, as those all fall under "demons")

What I propose is that every faction have 3 main races which make out the majority of the heroes, while the remaining "races" would have a few (1-2) heroes representing them. Does that sound fair to you?

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted November 12, 2016 11:50 AM

Well I'd say waiting to see your lineups, but IMO giving yourself pre-established routes can become a hindrance, just put creatures that you think fit together, for I think all the rest is adjustable.
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Baronus
Baronus


Famous Hero
posted November 12, 2016 12:47 PM

Yes 6-7 elves, human, dwarves standing untis its boring. Why Heroes III factions is the best human? Because we have griffins, angels as two another units and champions another too. 4 standing humans 3 other units. In stronghold goblin + orc is the same. Wolf rider another + 4 non orcs. In rampart elven archer and elve female pegasus rider and 5 non human. Its good and enough.
So racial faction must be with one standing and one rider and 5 other creatures. Its the best. I think that rampart will be better without dwarves. For dwarves new city is the best solution.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted November 12, 2016 01:45 PM

Galaad said:
Well I'd say waiting to see your lineups, but IMO giving yourself pre-established routes can become a hindrance, just put creatures that you think fit together, for I think all the rest is adjustable.

Wait, how does this tie into the tread? Not that it isn't a good point.

Baronus said:
Yes 6-7 elves, human, dwarves standing untis its boring. Why Heroes III factions is the best human? Because we have griffins, angels as two another units and champions another too. 4 standing humans 3 other units. In stronghold goblin + orc is the same. Wolf rider another + 4 non orcs. In rampart elven archer and elve female pegasus rider and 5 non human. Its good and enough.
So racial faction must be with one standing and one rider and 5 other creatures. Its the best. I think that rampart will be better without dwarves. For dwarves new city is the best solution.

Actually, Heroes VI's Haven had less humans, with only four humans + griffin, glory, and the "angels". Should be possible to have a haven with even less.
That said, you have a fair point. The main race being presented by one foot and one mounted unit as the basic would be a nice idea, though in some cases it might be need to have multiple foot units or more than two main race units (the knight faction in paticular would find it hard to get such diversity)

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 12, 2016 02:19 PM

Race (The Dwarves, The Wood Elves, The Dark Elves, The Humans, the Orcs, The Demons) is boring crap because "Other" (The Preserve/Rampart, The Dungeon, The Tower/Academy, the Inferno, the Fortress, The Stronghold, The Necropolis, the Conflux, The Forge, The Cove, The Oasis, The Castle/Haven, The Sanctuary) just sounds a HELL of a lot more interesting, mysterious and varied.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted November 12, 2016 02:35 PM

JollyJoker said:
Race (The Dwarves, The Wood Elves, The Dark Elves, The Humans, the Orcs, The Demons) is boring crap because "Other" (The Preserve/Rampart, The Dungeon, The Tower/Academy, the Inferno, the Fortress, The Stronghold, The Necropolis, the Conflux, The Forge, The Cove, The Oasis, The Castle/Haven, The Sanctuary) just sounds a HELL of a lot more interesting, mysterious and varied.

Did you just reply without taking the time to read the content?
Both have advantages and downside, such as the overuse of humans while other, more interesting races is present. I believe the best answer is a middleground with a diverse, yet thematically fitting, selection of races within each town. And less humans because they are even more borring than racil factions.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 12, 2016 04:04 PM

Race is crap ...

oh, wait, I already said that.

Then let me say it this way: Race has been a THEME in the first games. HUMANS were one faction, so ONE faction had a racial theme. The others though? "Fairy Tale Woodlands" which became "Rampart", both featuring Elves and Dwarves and Sprites and Unicorns... which is a lot better than throwing Dwarves out and making it an "Elven" faction. I mean, I'd think that DRAGONS would be intelligent as well, being the avatars of Gods, so the Emerald Faction would make more sense - but how many dragon-like creatures would you want in a faction?

So - race is CRAP as a GENERAL theme for more than one faction.

Even having Hero Class names as faction is better:
The Wizards; The Necromants; the Knights; The Warlocks; The Demoniacs; The Beastmasters...

Of course there is also the Order/Life/Nature/Chaos/DEath/Antimagic faction sequence of H4 which also is more interesting, because they don't really force creatures anywhere.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted November 12, 2016 04:20 PM
Edited by Elvin at 16:22, 12 Nov 2016.

Anything that limits creative lineup should be reconsidered imo. There can indeed be great gameplay variety even in a race-focused faction but it loses its charm. What has always captured my attention in heroes was the variety of mythological creatures, not my love of elves, dark elves or dwarves. They are fantasy staples but they've gotten more than enough spotlight already.

I think this has been a side-effect of ubi's rpg focus. Take the H5 sylvan for instance: Elven archer, Elven dual wielder, Elven magic-user. I mean obviously each race would have soldier's trained in each but do we really want a swordsman/archer/mage for every imaginable race? Imo hero class can cover that just fine.
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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted November 12, 2016 05:55 PM

I don't mind the Racial or Traditional aspects in some regards but I'd rather think what could be done for more variety instead?

What if the Hero-Class determined the creatures that would be in the army? There could be Hero classes that would allow some options for the player, old or new.

e.g. I could choose Knight and get the traditional Castle/Haven build. Or, go Rogue and choose from a bunch of neutrals or a mix from other Hero classes (tiered) - of course starting with a "Great-Leader" (manipulator) trait that allows me to mix what I want w/o too much penalty initially. Maybe be a Beast Warden and collect a group of Animals etc. from the game.

Just a thought


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Baronus
Baronus


Famous Hero
posted November 12, 2016 07:48 PM
Edited by Baronus at 19:49, 12 Nov 2016.

In fact in HIII we have races!
Castle = Humans but I think too much.
Inferno = Kreegans very good done, 6 humanoids but completly anothers, thats it.
Rampart = Elves two (enough), one dwarf should be rather in another city, centaur dont fit to this city.
Necropolis = deadmans (6) very good, because like in inferno completly anothers and one bonedragon.
Tower = golems. Gargoyle, golem, titan maybe genie all are golems. Naga dont fit shoold be replaced to dungeon.
Dungeon = halfhumans and mixed, centaur (H I,II) harpy, medusa, mino, manticore here fit naga, gnoll...
Citadel = lizards/raptors 5 units, gnoll and gorgone dont fit. Gorgone = copper bull is rather golem. To naga place. Here fit troglodyte, dragon.
Stronghold = Orcs and greenskins. 3 orcs and green ogre.
Conflux = elemental ,,race" 5 elements + firebird, pixie dont fit. Should be replaced to rampart like HI ,II
So we have race in all city. Maybe rampart is little mixed. But in others we have 3-6 racial creatures. But racial mustnt be the same like other.

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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted November 12, 2016 11:50 PM

The truth is that in practice, the difference between Themes and Factions is near non-existant. When they wanted to add X creature to Y town, they did it and wrote lore behind the reason. Thats it.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 13, 2016 07:52 AM

The truth is that races are completely redundant, because in practise the "racial" units are all ripped from different human units from history, anyway, with the difference between a Dwarven Defender and a Human Halberdier is basically non-existant.

The initial games do have them, but not as a race, but as a mythical being. In H2 the "Elf" is the archetypical mythical Elf and in that not different from, say, a Troll. The main characteristics of an Elf is, he looks vaguely human, is quite thin, has pointy ears and has a weapon, a bow.
A Troll is a mythical being as well, hulking and ugly and big, dwells under Bridges, throws rocks and regenerates damage.

It doesn't make sense to have Trolls as a race now, with a Troll Sorcerer, a Troll Rockthrower and a Troll Clubwielder, although you definitely could do it, adding, Goblins, Orcs, Cyclopses and Ogres - but THEY could all be a racial faction of their own.

In practise, all racial units over and above the archetypical one are FILLER units.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted November 13, 2016 09:21 AM
Edited by Mediczero at 09:23, 13 Nov 2016.

Still better than have every faction for all intents and purpose be a "human" faction acting as the supreme rulers over the other races. It's even more boring. By that logic we might as well have only one human creature.
It simply makes no sense for humans to be the only "race" to be represented in more units.

Faction should overall be thematic, yes. However I see no problem in having the pegasus rider and the druid be elves as well alongside the elven archer. Or both have the standard goblin and a goblin wolf rider. As long as it fits the theme and is not another unit for the shake of another unit there should be no problems.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 13, 2016 09:58 AM

Look, it's not about RACES, but about FACTIONS. "Race" isn't even in the mix. If race WAS in the mix, EVERY intelligent "race" could be a faction: Dragons, Goblins, Trolls, Kobolds, Gnomes, Halflings, Lizardmen - whatever.

Now, you can have a human faction - a medieval human settlement/society, no problem, but they CAN have allies; like Wood Elves; or Giants; or Angels; or Griffins - or whatever the hell you want. Yoo don't call it THE HUMANS, but the CASTLE, and it doesn't have to include humans AT ALL, although you might take a few medieval troops.
Then you might have a Wizard-of-the-Coast faction. They might include HUMAN apprentices, Golems, Titans, Wild Boars, Halflings, Rocs, Genies, WHATEVER. But they wouldn't be a HUMAN or racial faction, but the Wizards of the coast.

See that? Race is just bollocks. It's boring. Dwarves against Dark Elves, Dark Elves against Wood Elves, Humans against each other - come on.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted November 13, 2016 10:18 AM

I'll argue for the opposite, the use of different "races" in different factions make it the much more interesting. It creates diversity, makes the faction feel different rather than barbarian humans + allies and warlock humans + minions.

Also, understand that there is more than one way to have racial factions. It doesn't have to be absolute, with every possible race being a faction of their own. It can be thematic, such as elves, faires, and other forest races, and orcs, goblins, ogres, and such barbaric races.

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