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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Fascism rising
Thread: Fascism rising This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted January 06, 2017 08:34 PM

Fascism rising

Let me tell you a short story about fascism in here. During WWII, the country I live in was declared as independent. However, there was this fascist system, called "Ustasism" (not certain what's the English translation of it). It was a localised version of nacism, but it was still dreadful. That state lasted for a few years and a lot of concentration camps were built. A lot of people lost their lives, including those from our neighboring countries. In here, the sentence "Ready for our homeland" (translated) can be compared to greeting Hitler (if you know what I mean).

Luckily enough, the partisan communists managed to defeat them and establish a state for more than 40 years. Then we got the actual independence, but the neighboring country of Serbia started a war. It lasted for 4 years, but the war ended and since then my state is still developing (though one may say negatively today).

Unfortunately, this Ustasism is still present today. I can still see on a lot of news sites how a lot of people are still bickering about Ustasism and communism that was in our country. Quite ugly and venomous, even more than H7 thread had. Continuing on, since the end of the last war, every year there is a particular festival in one of our cities that celebrates the independence. But can this really be called like that, when all they do is sing songs about Ustasism, wear hats with a big "U" symbol?

Another thing is that recently, in the former sites of the concentration camps, a memorial plate (which shows the names and surnames of people that lost their lives in the last war) clearly shows the dark words "Ready for our homeland". The army forces stated how that was their greeting in the army. The government was surprised about that, but they only said how they'd make something about it. About a week later, a youth organisation decided to take matters into their own hands and place a poster that judges such words. It wasn't long until police came after them, but they weren't imprisoned, I think. The charges were that they desecrated the memorial. And, today, I do see there was another one of those memorial plates built, and will be more. This makes me also remember the entire army wanted to use that "Ready for our homeland" as the official greeting, e.g. they'd speak it to greet a foreign president visiting the country. (!)

But today, this particular event takes the cake of everything. You know that today is Christmas for Eastern Orthodox Church, right? Well, just in here, as those priests have attended the ceremony, not far from it, a bunch of people banded up that favor Ustasism. Even more shocking is that they said that Serbians have stolen that church in 1945., just because it is a site of "Serbian Eastern Orthodox Church Church" and wants it for "Croatian Eastern Orthodox Church".

I'm not certain how this would be handled in other countries, but it is apparent that here it is simply ignored. Even if it is something that cannot be ignored.
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Blizzardboy
Blizzardboy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Elvin's Lightside
posted January 06, 2017 08:53 PM
Edited by Blizzardboy at 21:02, 06 Jan 2017.

The river in Zagreb is fantastic, and I love how it starts with the letter 'z'.

Zzzzzzzz.

ZZZZZ ZZZZZ ZZZ. So fun to say.

Zzzzzagreb. Blizzzzzzzardboy.
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tSar-Ivor
tSar-Ivor


Legendary Hero
♀ DEUS VULT!!! ♀
posted January 07, 2017 12:58 AM
Edited by tSar-Ivor at 01:07, 07 Jan 2017.

There's a clear reason for this ontological insecurity, we need it it's a fundamental requirement of every human being under most circumstances even when destitute we will seek it even a glimmer hence why for the most part things have remained relatively stable (in the west). The rise of globalism has brought with it increased goods, services, technology, borders, ideas, and people. But it has also created a sense of rootlessness and loss of stability. The acceleration of globalisation and the neoliberal ideology has seen people experience instability as societies undergo rapid transformation. Ontological security being a sense of place where one can feel at home and grow and develop, these can be multiple 'spaces' (work school, your house or hell it can even be a bin, so long as you can personalise it and feel safe to express yourself within it, the extent you can do this determines how ontologically secure you are).

I would argue (though it has little bearing on my argument and not bound by it) that our nation states survived the 19 and 20th century thanks to nationalism, that the home is the nation, and the father (or mother) is the sovereign.

To the point, fascism is just another means of attaining ontological security from a position of insecurity, the idea that our countries no longer feel like home is perfectly rational. The migrant crisis brought this to people's eyes, but our ontological insecurities were there all along (so long as you have a sufficient amount you can still function).

There is an insane amount of depth to this, once I submit my paper I will hopefully be able to share a more substantial insight into this.  
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Blizzardboy
Blizzardboy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Elvin's Lightside
posted January 07, 2017 02:37 AM

Looks good so far.
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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted January 07, 2017 04:13 PM

EnergyZ said:
But today, this particular event takes the cake of everything. You know that today is Christmas for Eastern Orthodox Church, right? Well, just in here, as those priests have attended the ceremony, not far from it, a bunch of people banded up that favor Ustasism. Even more shocking is that they said that Serbians have stolen that church in 1945., just because it is a site of "Serbian Eastern Orthodox Church Church" and wants it for "Croatian Eastern Orthodox Church".


That is a perfectly terrible example regarding why I wrote Christ vs The Modern Church. State/Nation/Empire+Christ was never meant to be.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted January 07, 2017 05:21 PM

That may be but if so, that is also a paradox since without the empire and the institutionalization, you wouldn't even be aware of Christ today, there are zillions of local prophets and religions buried deep in history. You can be sure it wouldn't spread to Europe without the might of Rome, hence, it wouldn't then be carried out to the New Continent with the European settlers.
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kipshasz
kipshasz


Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
posted January 07, 2017 06:21 PM

Frankly, I find it hilarious.

A horde of "refugees" is at the doorstep and people still bicker over these petty things.
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Lithuanian folklore:
The Good and the Evil grab a few beers and go to watch how the neighbor's house is burning down.
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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted January 07, 2017 07:58 PM

@ Artu
My reference to what I wrote in Christ vs The Modern Church is not about history and "what is or might have been" but breaking the National-chains of TODAY regarding a long accepted and destructive way of life in the West as made evident (once again) in the OP.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted January 07, 2017 08:33 PM

My comment is about this statement: State/Nation/Empire+Christ was never meant to be.

If that is so, It was either going to spread through what was never meant to be or get lost.
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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted January 07, 2017 08:58 PM

Artu,
I got that but surely you understand there is no way to have both history's unfold and prove or disprove anything? We only have one history to discuss. I spoke on the last sorry part of the OP and it is happening now and causing strife and division.(once again)

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted January 07, 2017 09:09 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 21:10, 07 Jan 2017.

I propose we realise this is 2017 and classify Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, nazi, faci etc as old and out of time.
Cause these are as relevant as the hype of about the fire is today.

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Blizzardboy
Blizzardboy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Elvin's Lightside
posted January 08, 2017 03:26 AM
Edited by Blizzardboy at 03:51, 08 Jan 2017.

Ebonheart said:
I propose we realise this is 2017 and classify Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, nazi, faci etc as old and out of time.
Cause these are as relevant as the hype of about the fire is today.


I dont agree. They didn't fit into neat categories in the 20th century either but they are relevant for describing generalities. If they're intended to be used as strict formula than that was never at any point in time accurate. I mean for example with communism, it is true that people like Trotsky had highly dogmatic views in what was or wasnt communism, but this fell apart very quickly. It wasn't the same if you went to Yugoslavia or Albania or China or Cuba, but they all had commonalities. Within the Soviet Republic itself, there is a big difference between the USSR of Stalin and the USSR of Gorbachev.

'Nazi' is a vague term that could describe somebody that is aggressively racist. It has become integrated into the language almost as its own adjective, separate from the historical Nazi party.

The world is less polarized now than it used to be, since ideas and policies have become somewhat more mingled together due to globalization. The average state these days is a socialist-capitalist hybrid,  though this doesnt necessarily mean less arguing or even less conflict. "Brothers argue, strangers agree".

Overtime, these words might fall out of use on their own. Nobody uses the word 'mercantilism' anymore, despite how awesome it sounds. I think communism and capitalism are going to go the way of the Dodo, but words like socialism, federal,  and Republic are still used very heavily.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted January 08, 2017 09:34 AM

Markkur said:
But surely you understand there is no way to have both history's unfold and prove or disprove anything? We only have one history to discuss.

Well, you can always compare people that were beyond Rome's influence and reach (literally or politically) such as the Chinese, the Sub-Saharan Africans, the Aborgins, the Mayans, the Indonesian etc who remained non-christian until, this time, assimilated by the colonial Europeans.
blizz said:
The world is less polarized now than it used to be, since ideas and policies have become somewhat more mingled together due to globalization. The average state these days is a socialist-capitalist hybrid,  though this doesnt necessarily mean less arguing or even less conflict. "Brothers argue, strangers agree".

That's not true at all. When the Cold War ended in 1992, Fukuyama was talking about "the end of history," it was going to be capitalism with its liberal values and a world without major conflicts from now on. Today, all the academics have something else to suggest about why Fukayama was so wrong and how neo-liberalism snowed up so big.


You see, the thing is, in the 20th Century, in some of the more traditional societies, communism is executed as some form of tyranny, while in countries with developed industry and democracy, leftist movements slowly tame and nerf the wild capitalism of the 19th century. All these countries also have political conflicts, of course, and deep down, the power conflicts remain the same whatever the ideology (U.S.S.R. is still the Russian Empire, China and Japan still have territorial disputes etc.)

However, the intellectual conflict between Marxism and Liberalism is actually an interesting one and for example, if you pick some high-brow magazine from the 70's and read a Marxist and Liberal go at each other, you can really learn a lot about politics, history, economics. They constitute meaningful arguments with rational basis and cognitive rivalry. Yet, after the collapse of the communist block and socialism, the neo-liberalism, which is actually the good ol' wild capitalism, went along with the same imbalanced policies that created communism in the first place and in the underdeveloped countries which were "the new markets" to be exploited and plundered, there was no mainstream left with a meaningful or feasible objection anymore. So reactionary people went straight back to the lap of identity politics, nationalism and religion, naturally, fueling a counter-conservatism based on "counter-identities" in many contexts. From an intellectual perspective, identity politics which tickle safety and tradition are utter crap. And we are like in a medieval zone after the great antiquity (that's actually a little outdated historical paradigm but I'm using it as a metaphor), the debates, the political polarizations based on all this nationalist/religious camps are RETARDED, they produce nothing of value, unlike the Marxist - Liberal debates of the past which were at least philosophically intriguing.
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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted January 08, 2017 05:29 PM

artu said:
Markkur said:
But surely you understand there is no way to have both history's unfold and prove or disprove anything? We only have one history to discuss.

Well, you can always compare people that were beyond Rome's influence and reach (literally or politically) such as the Chinese, the Sub-Saharan Africans, the Aborgins, the Mayans, the Indonesian etc who remained non-christian until, this time, assimilated by the colonial Europeans.


Again I repeat..."There is no way to have both history's unfold and prove or disprove anything."

The example you gave above "to me" better proves that a Militant-State-Mandated-Church stamping Rome's power & domination, Militarily, Economically, Politically, Culturally and Spiritually while enslaving thousands & thousands over a large part of the world would have been an abomination to ALL lands not yet conquered by the powerful Roman Empire, no matter their culture.

"It is not what goes in a man that defiles him, it is what comes-out of him"...Christ.

A lot of death, destruction and enslavement came out of the Nation/State/Empire-led, Non-Christian by Actions & Speech...Imperial Rome.

Look at your own Turkey today. 1% Christian(if that) The whole M.E. sees my country today as a severe world menace and with proper alarm at what has happened there now and in recent years. Add to that, the U.S. has far too often been said today to be a "supposedly" Christian-Nation. (bah! hearing that said once. long years ago, was enough for me) This is not a Christian-Nation - it is a Secular-Nation that swallows everything or nothing or sometimes a little of both.

Knowing a great deal of history I cannot convey how distressed I am at finding the all same ol' dung still alive and kicking as written in the OP and all of the topics it touches.

I do believe that Nationalism is not necessarily a bad thing when it is only reflected as a part of Culture but I know too-well that it is usually politically-fanned to destructive purpose, when it goes from grateful child of the land to avenging-warrior.
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"Poetry is a felt change of consciousness"

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted January 08, 2017 06:23 PM

Well, it also provides you observable data about how religions spread and if you look objectively, hints that a completely alternative history in which it spreads somehow differently is unlikely.


Turkey was around 30-35 percent Christian till the beginning of 20th century, but after the empire collapsed, naturally, a lot of the independence movements were by Christian nations, so, the sentiment while building the nation state from the ruins was not very positive towards them. Some migrated to now independent nation-states of their own, some were gone with official, mutual population exchanges, (my ancestors are from the Midilli island which is Greece now, for instance. They were sent to Ayvalik and the Greeks in Ayvalik were sent to Greece, you can actually see the island from the coast,) and in worst cases, some were unfortunately killed like the Armenians during WW1.

The assimilation policies following the early years of the republic is one of the biggest mistakes in my opinion. If we still had like a 20 percent Christian population at least, political Islam wouldn't be where it is today, besides the Christian minorities were mostly quite educated and talented subjects of the empire, they were very skillful craftsmen and artists in many cases. But who knows, if things got worse than something like the Balkans in the 90's also could have happened.    
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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted January 08, 2017 07:42 PM

artu said:
Well, it also provides you observable data about how religions spread and if you look objectively, hints that a completely alternative history in which it spreads somehow differently is unlikely.

Hints & unlikely are still not an argument of facts.

Since you persist with this I will respect your determination. However, anything I type will be "my own" pure un-provable speculation.

From my side of this fence:

1. Before Rome elevated Christianity to the "supreme tool of the Empire" and Faith was consequently taken to new heights (actually despicably low)by a very long list of Nations that followed, Christians were being slaughtered and squashed in every conceivable way. Yet, from basically, holes in the ground, (catacombs and other incredible underground structures in your neck of the woods)the Faith grew. Now of course it good be very rightly argued that Rome could have exterminated the Faith but that would not prove something ill about the original Faith but instead...zero tolerance for anyone, no matter what they believed, that did not worship Caesar.

2. Now it was not earthly power or even life itself that was the reason for the Faith's survival in cramped-holes in the ground but something within each individual life regarding how to live their life each day and the joy of learning to forgive, care and love people of all sorts in a local community setting - to actually become the family of man. In brief explanation, what I am expressing would be far, far more "Controlling oneself" versus "Controlling or being controlled by others."

3. Now had this underground Faith not been seen as a "Threat" or the final realized-strategy of Empire+Religion "a way of Unifying and Keeping Roman-power"; instead through our history, we might have seen a Faith that could have flourished - behind deep spiritual values alone with no ambitions of earthly-gain. This "world-view" can, even today, support any worldly culture in a very positive way. This Citizen would have been a bonus to any civilization at any time in history, as it sometimes proved, i.e. Soup-kitchens or hostels, prison ministries, funding widows, caring for the homeless, etc.

I think it just as "likely" that it "might" still be with us today in sowing good seeds between people. However, due to the usurpation instead we have the historical horrors & worldly-corruption that are correctly spewed and as I have already repeated...still evident today in the OP.


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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted February 26, 2017 04:56 PM
Edited by EnergyZ at 16:58, 26 Feb 2017.

Gross. Today a political party "of Rights" has made a movement through the city and, once more, shouted those fascistic slogans. Curiously enough, they also gave support for Trump.

If this was a better country, the police would've arrested them. Instead, they only kept watch that nobody interferes with the movement. All the more reason to leave the country - permanently.

Here's a video, if it means something.

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Kipshasz
Kipshasz


Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
posted February 26, 2017 05:05 PM

The police were mainly there to prevent any rioting.

same thing happens every time Lithuanian "nationalist" turds march around. this year was extremely pathetic, using pepe the frog memes, as 80's pop music. During our independence day. So sad, bu that's what you get when the leader of nationalist youth is also a mole for the Homeland Security Department.



I think this group that Energydude is so concerned also has people infiltrated into it to cause provocations and stuff to discredit any form of nationalist movement.
____________
Lithuanian folklore:
The Good and the Evil grab a few beers and go to watch how the neighbor's house is burning down.
* * *
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 26, 2017 05:45 PM

If the snowflakes rambling on a dehydrated funeral march from your video are your fascists, imagine ours, given that this video shows french far left attacking the police yesterday, they call themselves "anti-fascists". Get some proteins.

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted February 26, 2017 05:47 PM

"Ours" were far right ones.

But why the need for that protest in France?

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