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Heroes Community > Other Games Exist Too > Thread: Dungeons & Dragons games
Thread: Dungeons & Dragons games This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 06, 2017 10:50 PM

Dungeons & Dragons games

I find it kinda sad that after the PC companies (or rather, Bioware) lost their license, D&D games just died off. Playing Neverwinter Nights 1 or Baldur's Gate is as fun as it was 10 years ago. But, it's already been almost 10 years IIRC since the last D&D game hit the market (Neverwinter Nights 2 Storm Of Zehir, realeased @ 2008) and it doesn't look like it's going to change.

Now, I'm not sure whether the new editions would make good PC games (aren't we up to 5th Edition on D&D so far? I lost track), but the 3.5 edition (NWN2) was mighty fun, even if it nerfed arcane magic way too much. There was plenty of ways to make your character and most characters were actually playable. Composing a party in Storm of Zehir was also pretty fun. D&D games usually featured a captivating (even if somewhat naive) plot and some were actually very successful in narration, considered one of the best PC games ever made (Planetscape Torment and NWN2:Mask of the Betrayer expansion).

I wonder if we ever get new D&D games. I guess not, but it's been fun.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
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posted June 06, 2017 11:27 PM

Try Divinity Original Sin and Pillars of Eternity.
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Elvin
Elvin


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Tastes like chicken
posted June 13, 2017 07:22 AM
Edited by Elvin at 07:26, 13 Jun 2017.

Pillars of eternity is the closest to baldur's gate in terms of mechanics but both games are fantastic. The one issue with pillars is its slow levelling pace and low level cap(12) which reduces its replayability.

PS while not strictly a D&D game, the way its mechanics and gameplay have evolved and the way your stats/skills affect non-combat situations makes me consider it as one. Good news is, pillars 2 is on the horizon and this time it has a lvl cap of 20
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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Retired Hero
posted June 13, 2017 08:40 AM

I was repulsed by the level cap of Pillars of Eternity, so I didn't even try it. I honestly don't need games that end before they can truly begin, lol. I hated the pacing of BG1, what "fixed" that game was the sequels and mods that combine the game into one. Without it, you need to sink a good 50h into a campaign where after 10 hours you get +1 to Thac0 out of your level up. Fascinating, ey?

To me, D&D game needs 30-40 levels to give you a true sense of going from zero to hero. BG1 was total zero to a smaller-zero-but-still-a-zero. The strength of BG (as a whole) was going from a total zero that had problems with a stray wolf to a demigod. That was an amazing journey.


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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted June 13, 2017 03:33 PM
Edited by Corribus at 15:34, 13 Jun 2017.

Pillars of Eternity wasn't as epic as Baldur's Gate I/II but it was still a fantastic game. Minus the occasional jarring difficulty spike, it was a great spiritual successor to Bioware's games.

Except for that stupid god-dragon at the end of the optional deep dungeon. I tried forever and could never even come close to beating that thing.

I recently tried to play again some of the really old Gold Box D&D games from GoG, but they've just aged too much to be enjoyable, particularly with the really poor porting. Same thing goes for the old Ultima games.
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PandaTar
PandaTar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted June 13, 2017 07:36 PM
Edited by PandaTar at 19:37, 13 Jun 2017.

Speaking of D&D games made me remind me of a game I played in the 3DO console almost 20 years ago named DeathKeep.

Might have been the first RPG of that kind I played. Didn't know exactly what D&D was either.
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Tito_Reni
Tito_Reni


Bad-mannered
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posted June 14, 2017 12:53 AM
Edited by Tito_Reni at 00:58, 14 Jun 2017.

BY THE GODS, I snowing LOVED Neverwinter Nights 1. Too bad no one makes videogames like that one anymore. The closest thing is Drakensang, but the combat sucks because the playability of The Dark Eye (the table-top game in which is based) has too much dodges.

By the way, let me make a little rant about how much I disagree about what you say of magic being nerfed in NWN1:

In almost every role-playing game (from table-tops to videogames), wizards suck dick. They are weak as snow, and they cannot do almost anything. Actually, every class except pure might clases suck dick. This is because it is though as a team-work in which the warrior gets all the fun while at least three guys have to go behind him cleaning his snow and constantly healing him. This is not fun, this is toxic snow.

Being a wizard should be something fun, not something boring and weak. The fact that you cannot wear a decent armour without having all your spell-power blocked so you have to go basically naked into the battle so even a little wasp can kill you is so snowing stupid that I yet cannot comprehend in what the snow the developers are thinking when they do this snow. In Skyrim this doesn't happen, by the way; they also don't have classes, so you can choose any skill/abilitie without homosexual restrictions.

HoMM is not a very good example of this because heroes just command the troops and don't go into the battle, but is an example good enough to show you all when playing a wizard leads to a different way of playing and not to sucking dick.

NWN1 tryied to fix this with super-powerful magical armour, but still, there are many limitations with magic. If you are a warrior, you can hit as many times as you want with you sword/axe/hammer, but if you are a wizard you depend in mana, spell-power and having to memorize a limitated amount of spells, which are all useless snow, let's be honest here. Oh, and most of the time the spell-casting fails because of reasons.

Recent games have tryied to fix this unbalanced mess having warriors depend on stamina (Hurray!! Some balance, finally). But still, wizards are still very weak and useless. Again, take a look at Skyrim, by no depending on restrictions you can level-up as you wish; but, again, still not enough, you can keep hitting someone with a sword when you are out of stamina, but you cannot keep using a staff when you are out of magic (at least you can change back to a sword, since you don't have restrictions).

Changing a bit the subject, and entering into something that Skyrim does horribly wrong: STEALTH. Look at games like "Alien: Isolation", "Deus Ex: Human Revolution" or "Stix: Masters of Shadows". THAT is stealth. You cannot do that on any D&D game, doesn't matter that you actually have a Rogue class.

Also, in old games archers are totally useless because the enemy always gets close very fast or because you don't have much range. Just take a look at M&M X.

CONCLUSION: Role-playing games are too focused on warriors and I'm sick of it. Wizards and Rogues (including archers) need some love, and not being forced to stay under the shadow of warriors.

PS: SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW SNOW
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Elvin
Elvin


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Tastes like chicken
posted June 14, 2017 11:01 AM

What are you talking about? Nwn's predecessor had ridiculously good wizards A fighter cannot hope to kill a dragon in seconds like a pure mage can.
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Dulkan
Dulkan


Known Hero
posted June 14, 2017 11:41 AM

Tito_Reni said:

In almost every role-playing game (from table-tops to videogames), wizards suck dick. They are weak as snow, and they cannot do almost anything. Actually, every class except pure might clases suck dick. This is because it is though as a team-work in which the warrior gets all the fun while at least three guys have to go behind him cleaning his snow and constantly healing him. This is not fun, this is toxic snow.

Being a wizard should be something fun, not something boring and weak. The fact that you cannot wear a decent armour without having all your spell-power blocked so you have to go basically naked into the battle so even a little wasp can kill you is so snowing stupid that I yet cannot comprehend in what the snow the developers are thinking when they do this snow.



What are you talking about? D&D Wizards are massively overpowered and surpass the power of fighters by around lvl 10, becoming demigods when reaching lvl 20. A fighter can always only hit a guy, a high level wizard summons storms of destruction, can fly and teleport, create magic items of obscene power and if all else fails, they have the all-powerful wish spell.


Quote:

NWN1 tryied to fix this with super-powerful magical armour, but still, there are many limitations with magic. If you are a warrior, you can hit as many times as you want with you sword/axe/hammer, but if you are a wizard you depend in mana, spell-power and having to memorize a limitated amount of spells, which are all useless snow, let's be honest here. Oh, and most of the time the spell-casting fails because of reasons.



You know, you need to activate defensive casting and skill concentration in NWN? Then spells will nearly never fail. Yeah, you memorize a limited amount of spells, but while a fighter hits a guy, you stop time, then proceed to lay down several layers of destruction on the stunned enemies. Meanwhile, you use protective spells, which make you far more durable than a fighter.
In NWN PVP, wizards weren't allowed to cast their defensive spells before the duel began, because they would have been unbeatable otherwise.
On top of that, NWN wizards are still extremely strong, while being cut down in power level from Baldur's Gate. In BG you had chain casts and even better protective spells.

Quote:

Recent games have tryied to fix this unbalanced mess having warriors depend on stamina (Hurray!! Some balance, finally). But still, wizards are still very weak and useless. Again, take a look at Skyrim, by no depending on restrictions you can level-up as you wish; but, again, still not enough, you can keep hitting someone with a sword when you are out of stamina, but you cannot keep using a staff when you are out of magic (at least you can change back to a sword, since you don't have restrictions).



Skyrim is a bad example to pick, as it severly reduced the power level of magic compared to earlier TES games with the removal of the spellmaker. Still, you can summon quite formidable creatures in skyrim and while playing a destruction mage isn't very good, a necromancer or daedra summoner is very strong

Quote:

Changing a bit the subject, and entering into something that Skyrim does horribly wrong: STEALTH. Look at games like "Alien: Isolation", "Deus Ex: Human Revolution" or "Stix: Masters of Shadows". THAT is stealth. You cannot do that on any D&D game, doesn't matter that you actually have a Rogue class.



Those games are stealth games, you want a stealth game to have a very good stealth mechanic. Implementing such a mechanic isn't exactly easy or not time-consuming, you know? Spending the effort on a game like Skyrim, while nice, is not very feasible, as the stealth system isn't a core part of the game; in fact some players may never engage in it, so TES games offer a solid, mediocre stealth system.



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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted June 14, 2017 12:04 PM

Speaking of rogue gameplay, I found the pillars version very reasonable. That dirty attacks are not just made against opponents engaged in battle with other characters or when in stealth but also on debuffed targets(wounded, blinded, slowed etc) and for any rogue attack in the first 2 seconds of the combat. You do not have to keep finding excuses to go invisible but all the same you to plan your negative effects and character placement. Better yet, dexterity in that game increases attack speed and you can hit 30% faster with maxed dexterity.
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Quantomas
Quantomas


Promising
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted June 14, 2017 12:18 PM
Edited by Quantomas at 12:18, 14 Jun 2017.

Tito_Reni said:
BY THE GODS, I snowing LOVED Neverwinter Nights 1. Too bad no one makes videogames like that one anymore. The closest thing is Drakensang, but the combat sucks because the playability of The Dark Eye (the table-top game in which is based) has too much dodges.

Maybe you should check out Pathfinder: Kingmaker.

The ex-Nival devs are kind of traditionalists.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 14, 2017 04:10 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 17:50, 14 Jun 2017.

Here's a quick comparison of low level (10) fighter vs low level (10) mage of NWN:

Fighter

Does two attacks per round at (let's say) 1d10 weapon damage + strength bonus (not more than +5) + enchantment bonus.

To not overcomplicate things, let's say 12 damage per hit, two attacks per round, 24 damage.

He also employs the Barbarian merc, which (for simplicity sake) does the same damage.

So a total of 48 damage per round, while running with 20 AC tops.

Now, the fun starts: Mage

mage does nothing himself, but summons a (let's say) level 5 summon, aDire bear, which does 2 attacks per round , 1d8+10 or something like that due to his 30 strength.

He also summons a familiar, a panther that does have 1d6+5 damage and does Sneak attacks of 5d6.

Now, the mage casts flame weapon on everyone, which does 1d6+caster level damage per hit, which at level 10 is 1d6+10.

Next, mage casts empowered bull's strength on everyone for extra +6 strength (+3 damage/tohit modifier).

Next, mage casts Greater Magic Weapon and everyone's weapons get +3 enhancement.

Next, mage casts haste on everyone

To sum up:

Mage: nothing
Merc: around 20 damage per hit, 3 attacks per round = 60 damage
Familiar: let's say 15 damage per hit, but also sneak attacks, so it can get anywhere from 45 to let's say 90 damage per round
Summon: to make things simple, let's assume he does 20 damage per hit with his combined bonuses, so again 60.

so the total damage per round of mage's team is somewhere near 180-200.  


200 vs 48 = much balance, very fair, wow.

now, the mage casts improved invisibility on everyone, cat's grace, mage's armor, stoneskin... everyone runs around with 25-30 AC, 100 extra HP via stoneskin, and 50% ethearlness (=50% extra dodge chance).

And the warrior is stuck at his 80hp, 20 AC, a merc with 16 AC tops and no stoneskin, no etherealness.. ETC.

MUCH BALANCE



Neverwinter Nights was ridiculously magic-biased. A cleric could also do well (he does have darkfire, with trickery domain he can cast greater invis, he has access to bull's strength... yada yada), but a pure fighting class was pure **** in that game.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted June 14, 2017 06:21 PM

I always hated the idea of buffing everything before an encounter,
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Doomforge
Doomforge


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Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 14, 2017 08:56 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 20:57, 14 Jun 2017.

well the buffs in NWN are mostly reasonable, 1-2 mins per caster level, so you're quickly running with 30-min buffs around.

haste lasts 6 secs per caster level though so it's more annoying. (thank Lord for Extended Spell feat in D&D 3.0 and above )
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Tito_Reni
Tito_Reni


Bad-mannered
Adventuring Hero
posted June 14, 2017 09:26 PM

snow, my memory is not what it used to be.

Speaking in general terms, I don't tend to like how wizards are treated (normaly they have very low health and can't wear decent armour). It makes difficult or even boring to play as one.

I suppose that Magicka is a good example on how to make fun wizards.

And yes, I'm looking forward for this Pathfinder, althouh due to the crisis I no longer have much money to spend.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Tastes like chicken
posted June 14, 2017 09:34 PM

Tito_Reni said:
Speaking in general terms, I don't tend to like how wizards are treated (normaly they have very low health and can't wear decent armour). It makes difficult or even boring to play as one.


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dulkan
dulkan


Known Hero
posted June 14, 2017 10:05 PM

Tito_Reni said:

Speaking in general terms, I don't tend to like how wizards are treated (normaly they have very low health and can't wear decent armour). It makes difficult or even boring to play as one.



What do you propose should the weakness of a wizard then be? If a wizard is baseline as strong on defense as a warrior, then what's the point of playing a warrior?

Besides, there are plenty of games, where you can play a battlemage type, woh uses sword and magic and wears heavy armour.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 14, 2017 10:38 PM

I loved my Arcane Warrior in Dragon Age.

And my fighter/mage/thief in Baldur's Gate.

Easily ma favorite class: a guy with melee weapons and spells
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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted June 14, 2017 11:18 PM
Edited by EnergyZ at 23:19, 14 Jun 2017.

So how's that Neverwinter online game? If anyone has played it.

Anyway, just played NWN1 and NWN2. Oh, and Planescape Torment, as related to this.
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Tito_Reni
Tito_Reni


Bad-mannered
Adventuring Hero
posted June 15, 2017 12:40 AM

dulkan said:
Tito_Reni said:

Speaking in general terms, I don't tend to like how wizards are treated (normaly they have very low health and can't wear decent armour). It makes difficult or even boring to play as one.



What do you propose should the weakness of a wizard then be? If a wizard is baseline as strong on defense as a warrior, then what's the point of playing a warrior?

Besides, there are plenty of games, where you can play a battlemage type, woh uses sword and magic and wears heavy armour.


My problem are wizards who die with one strike while warriors can stand a nuke.

In other words: health-points.

Also, armour, I know they can cast some spell to have magical armour, but that is temporary and requieres mana while standard armour doesn't (another good thing about NWN: you could have good magical armour, like a magic tunic which protects you like it was a heavy armour). If they don't have armour, that means less defense points, which also makes them easy to kill.

So, basically, that. They are too easy to kill. They (usually) cannot be in the first line because they get rekt inmediatly.

Maybe the best thing is to forget the Might-Stealth-Magic system and instead use three options, each one being a mix of those two which also could unlock some special abilities. For example:

Might + Magic = Cleric (can use prayers which don't waste mana)
Magic + Stealth = Bard (can use songs)
Stealth + Might = Technocrats? (can use tech like gunpowder)
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