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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Ideas for Bastion town (+Hope and Despair)
Thread: Ideas for Bastion town (+Hope and Despair) This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT»
NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 28, 2017 10:08 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 22:16, 28 Sep 2017.

Ideas for Bastion town (+Hope and Despair)

So, some here, principally Baronus, have been talking of the Bastion town which was to be included with (unfinished) H4 expansions.

We also know that two new towns were released as TCG-only: Hope and Despair.

Hope was to exist between Nature and Life in the "alignement wheel".
Despair was to exist between Chaos and Death.

Until I know more about this (does anyone have TCG images?) I shall conflate Bastion with Despair, because it's obviously intended as an Evil town. (although I would argue it looks more like between Death and Order than Chaos)

Presumably, Evil Sorceress, Goblin Knight, and Dark Champion, and also Gargantuans, were intended for this faction (they all share the color scheme ans storyline). Possibly also the Hexis castle was involved.

The WoW creatures do not seem like they were inteded for Bastion. They have other colors and are very dissimilar thematically.

According to Baronus the Dark Champion/Goblin knight was to be the hero (adventure and combat appearances). Since the Dark Champion portrait shows a Goblin Knight, this has merit.

Since we can't have a "seventh town" without rewriting the source code, we shall assume replacing one of the existing towns.

I would argue the possibilities for this are Might, Death and Order.
Might because they have strong creatures.
Death because they are obviously doom and gloom (also the Dark Knight was originally undead, although my mod changes that, since he doesn't really look undead - specially the horse)
Order because that's what Bastion invokes as a name, and because of the bluish spellcaster theme.

Chaos would have too much fire and direct damage (plus too OP with this), and removing Dungeon for them doesn't fit thematically.
Life is obviously out because of the whole "Light and good" theme.
And Nature doesn't fit the "unnatural abominations, magic and evil knights" stuff.

So my creature arrangements would be as follow, other towns would have to be rewritten to accomodate this (taking off their similar creatures).

Alignement: Might
Default Color: Blue
Terrain: Ice (we all know Ice is inherently evil, as Narnia taught us, also Russians )
Heroes: Death Knights M&F (only might heroes on Might town)
I woudn't use the Goblin Knight as default heroes since they are worth more for the town as two creatures, but they could be a special hero (campaign-like) with my "Hero creature" technique.

T1:
Orcs (What is evilness without Orc hordes?),
AND
Dwarves (Also use axes, are blue, plus in the other games dwarves = ice ; Also, good brawler to compliment the shooter)

T2:
Gargoyle (Fast and versatile, also cold stone)
OR
Goblin Warrior (Goblin Knight conversion, is slow and steady unlike the Gargoyle, high damage)

T3:
Ice Demon (A slow and steady counterpart to  (I also considered a Behemith, Weaker version of Behemoth, swarms with high HP and good numbers, loks like a Yeti)
OR
Evil Paladin (Conversion of Dark Champion, weaker too, but stronger than notmal T3)

T4:
Dark Sorceress (As Evil Sorceress, but with Strike and Return)
Gargantuan (no ranged double strike, too OP; but Stone Skin)


Since this uses creatures that were being used by my rebuilt Necropolis, and disbanding the Inferno, I preferred to do "Dungeonferno" rather than to re-assemble the ugly infernopolis, and to reconstruct the Necropolis (Necrodungeon) with things like Evil Eyes and Hydra. Also more creative.

These would be my changed faction layouts for a Bastion submod:





However, I am not married to this. For example: Other creatures I considered for Bastion were Sea Monster, Titan, Ballista, and Pirate;
As well as making the Death Knights creatures and just using the Goblin hero (or Necromancer heroes, if they were Death) - As well, I welcome implementations of these ideas and others.

Make your proposals! (and/or give info about plans for Bastion, Hope, and Despair)

If I would make "Hope", it would be the Conflux
If I would make "Despair", it would be H3 Fortress.

In fantasy, all is permitted. Except changing the building abilities, adding more creatures, etc. Damned source code :V
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trashid
trashid


Famous Hero
posted September 28, 2017 10:25 PM

For Hope and Despair look at this gallery. Although they are clearly non might&magic because they use nordic mythology. I have more pictures of them if you need.
But the bastion town could be great, although I would arrenge them differently. Goblin knights and Sorceress for lvl 3, Gargantuan and Knights for lvl 4. Ice Demons can be lvl 2 spellcasters (ice bolt and aging).
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted September 28, 2017 10:41 PM

I ain't never heard of no unfinished Bastion town mate, certainly it makes good sense to combine the weirdos of Hexis into a discrete town but do you have a source that there was ever such a town officially which got canned, that would for sure be news to me lol

actually Jen Bullard had mentioned that there were four canned towns but she did not say what they were and nobody can manage to make contact with her despite trying multiple channels, possible inspiration there but good luck getting a word in lol

personally if I had Willy Wonka's Golden Ticket I would make the Ruins/Despair town the underground town and add in characters such as Gnolls, Cockatrice, Dendoid, Gremlin, Manticore or whatnot plus the Hexis freaks (Gnolls given that there are Werewolves in the TCG Despair town and not being racist bruv but Werewolves are basically Gnolls dontchaknow), like a weird town of motley mutants and fashionable freaks and all that toss in a spooky vein cheers lol
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Karmakeld
Karmakeld


Famous Hero
posted September 29, 2017 12:24 AM

Well the fact that the Goblin Knight does in fact have a spell animation would've made them useable as a combat hero skin, although it is very unlike all other heroes, being all covered in armor. Sure it matches the mounted Death Knight, but I too am curious about the source of this rumor. There's not even any mentionings of this faction/nation in the Bullard files, although an Empress is mentioned - but wasn't that a Chaos/Nature nation?

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 29, 2017 04:19 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 04:54, 29 Sep 2017.

Quote:
For Hope and Despair look at this gallery. Although they are clearly non might&magic because they use nordic mythology. I have more pictures of them if you need.


Well, Ashan dwarf fortress uses Nordic Mythology too, so I woudn't discount them based on that.

I would like more images, yes. For example here there is a creature lacking; the other T2 Ruins unit (only Doppleganger is on those three, it seems to be randomized)
I see the factions had heroes prepared too... as well as fully programmable primary and secondary skills. (except for pillaging that refers to "cards", but I guess these would be resources ingame)

Another interesting thing is that we have those images as sources of what the Town Screens could have looked like.

And some H4 cards use what seem to be beta images of the game, take particularly a look at the harpy's nest.

Quote:
I ain't never heard of no unfinished Bastion town mate, certainly it makes good sense to combine the weirdos of Hexis into a discrete town but do you have a source that there was ever such a town officially which got canned, that would for sure be news to me lol


Well my only source is Baronus, I don't have official info either. But I just this year knew about Hope and Despair, so I tend to rely on what other people say on these matters.

Quote:
Well the fact that the Goblin Knight does in fact have a spell animation would've made them useable as a combat hero skin, although it is very unlike all other heroes, being all covered in armor.

Well, knights of Life are all covered in armor except faces. It's its combat stance which makes it different, not completely upright unlike other heroes (that's probably because it is a Goblin, which is also differring to other H4 heroes which all have invariably Human standard appearances, save for the Elf special and Liches).

Quote:
personally if I had Willy Wonka's Golden Ticket I would make the Ruins/Despair town the underground town and add in characters such as Gnolls, Cockatrice, Dendoid, Gremlin, Manticore or whatnot plus the Hexis freaks (Gnolls given that there are Werewolves in the TCG Despair town and not being racist bruv but Werewolves are basically Gnolls dontchaknow), like a weird town of motley mutants and fashionable freaks and all that toss in a spooky vein cheers lol

A lot of work with creatures but by all means not impossible. Yet I would be somewhat wary about how that would look graphically...

Quote:
But the bastion town could be great, although I would arrenge them differently. Goblin knights and Sorceress for lvl 3, Gargantuan and Knights for lvl 4. Ice Demons can be lvl 2 spellcasters (ice bolt and aging).


Not a bad idea either but three casters for different tiers might be a little excessive, also we already have two creatures that use Ice Bolt (Genies and Water Elementals) as primary attacks. I would use my unlocked spell "freeze attack" better for them. Too bad we don't have an H4 "ice ring" (though that could probably be arranged by replacing Fire Ring's school, type of damage and graphics).

"New" Restored Ice spells:

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted September 29, 2017 10:59 AM

Dark champion and goblin knight is chaos mighy hero male. Horse is map animation as all heroes. Its dungeon in HIII.
Compare cactus helmet:
Ajit HIII:

Dark champion HIV:

Dark champion was recolored to fit him to black death colors.  Correctly color is as goblin knight look.
Evil sorceress is hero chaos mage female. Without horse animation of course.
Efreetii, Nightmares, thieves, and heroes from ,,chaos" are in fact kreegan inferno resources pasted to chaos. You see theyre black and red, bronze coloros. Like cerberi, devils, imps. Inferno faction was pasted by half to chaos and death. Now we can join it and made correctly inferno.
...
Conflux faction was pasted to ,,creature portal" its big fail and crap. Dont work for AI. Now we can build correctly conflux.
Game was cutted very much as you see.
Citdalel have only hydras byt gnasher looks like basilisk and we have old citadel heroes. We have concept art of gnoll hero so gnoll was planned. So I think citadel was planned too.
...
Faction names are opposite.
order - chaos in HIII tower contra dungeon is the same.
We dont have inferno but we have heaven! It means that was planned:
heaven - inferno like HIII maybe light and dark?
life - death like HIII bastion contra necro NOT CASTLE CONTRA DEATH!  So bastion means elves unicorns etc.
might as barbarians with no magic
nature maybe plant faction
conflux elementals
And citadel I dont know how faction name was planned.
...
So I think first is finishing NWC concept. Inferno and conflux using death and nature city.
Next citadel using chaos city.
We need concepts for castle, academy and might for new factions.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted September 29, 2017 02:23 PM

in my personal opinion I would for sure take care not to have a hypothesis too far or impose an own opinion if dodgy mate, I and others have seen the early design documents of Heroes 4 and there was certainly never the merest hint anywhere that a faction was cutted, chopped, sliced or diced as you suggest, it was always the same general concept lol
the only changes IIRC was that the Bandit and the Orc were originally in the Stronghold and the Centaur and the Gnoll were in the Asylum, with the Gnoll being cut out to have the Berserker, and also there was the Demon Lord of the Necropolis which was cut in place of the Venom Spawn, but other than that it was all just about the same from the paper to the game, there was no Efreeti and Kreegans pasted away from a crapped Inferno because that was not on the agenda lol

bear in mind there are very logical reasons why there is no Inferno, Fortress or Conflux even if we do not like that, for one thing the Kreegans were wiped in Heroes 3 by the genocide from the Erathians and they are only in the game because Gauldoth stumbles upon them while touring outer space in the middle of his story, and also the Tatalians were wiped (RIP) in the backstory because Kilgor also did a big genocide before the contra with Gelu, and the Conflux was always a bit of an artificial one-off tag team of the elementals which disapparated back into the ether after the job was done with the Kreegans, thus in the story terms there is no good reason to have those factions in Heroes 4 lol
bear in mind the vision of the vanilla is that each old faction has a campaign following up on the faction as it settles into the new world, that would be a struggle to do that with a faction like Inferno or Conflux which were already wiped from the old one lol

of course we do know there would be more factions in the expansion and the Hexis Freakshow is a perfect candidate for one, but it is not the facts that they are a missing half of the Necropolis (oops my bad Gauldoth mate sorry to trigger you, for sure missing halves are a sensitive subject for you sorry mate) cheers lol
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trashid
trashid


Famous Hero
posted September 29, 2017 03:18 PM

NimoStar said:

Well, Ashan dwarf fortress uses Nordic Mythology too, so I woudn't discount them based on that.

I would like more images, yes. For example here there is a creature lacking; the other T2 Ruins unit (only Doppleganger is on those three, it seems to be randomized)

...

Not a bad idea either but three casters for different tiers might be a little excessive, also we already have two creatures that use Ice Bolt (Genies and Water Elementals) as primary attacks. I would use my unlocked spell "freeze attack" better for them. Too bad we don't have an H4 "ice ring" (though that could probably be arranged by replacing Fire Ring's school, type of damage and graphics).



I personally haven't seen the other lvl 2 Despair creature anywhere. The other site I have found related to the cards is this. That is all I know.

For the nordic mythology I meant the 'true' non-ashan might&magic lore, where anything nordic-related is put down into 'barbaric' theme. Unless I don't know stuff, Verriker might know better. The card game is of different creation, designed not by the h4 creators but by Jonathan Bjork (unless he was a h4 designer but I don't know).

______

As for the Heroes 4 design, Verriker, I am afraid the changes were not dictated by the lore, but by trying to make the game similar to the Magic the Gathering system, or that of Master of Magic. Everything is the same - the magic colors are placed as the alignments in h4. With the same flaw of Nature next to Chaos, which are actually opposite color-wise. In Master of Magic death has both undead and demons in it. Nature specialises in summoning beasts. Sorcery (Order) specialises in countering magic (dispel, steal enchantment in Order of H4) and illusions. Life specialises in buffs. Chaos specialises in destruction magic (and has efreets). The only thing that wasn't there is the Might, which they had to create to still have the Might & Magic theme going. So I believe this is the true reson behind the harsh changes to the alignments compared to the rest of the installments.
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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted September 29, 2017 04:20 PM

Partition inferno between two factions is good visible. Both parts have the same colors and design. It means its one faction in first plan. If it would be a planned design it would be another design. The same conflux pasted as "creature portal". Its not only opinion but fact. Laters NWC games are extremly cutted and unfinished. MMIX and HIV are the last NWC games . And extremly chaotical.

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BrennusWhiskey
BrennusWhiskey


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
The quickest H4 player
posted September 29, 2017 05:13 PM

verriker said:
cheers lol


Does the lack of capital letters and finishing of each statement with cheers lol is rewarded here with extra stars?
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted September 29, 2017 05:18 PM

@trashid, oh for sure mate, I even got bookmarked the actual post of Gus Smedstad that he got the big H4 designer job basically by saying let's turn Heroes into those two games which he was a fan of lol,
I am just saying that even beyond that you must consider that those factions were deliberately written out not only as far back as early production of Heroes 4 but even as early as Heroes 3, and they do not exist in any H4 design documents going as far back as 2000, thus there is no reason to believe they were produced or considered, let alone cut out at the eleventh hour lol

Baronus said:
It means its one faction in first plan. If it would be a planned design it would be another design.


Baronus said:
Its not only opinion but fact.


come on mate don't ignore the facts to conjure alternative facts once again man, that is a trump approach to reality, you are better and smarter than that mate cheers lol

BrennusWhiskey said:
Does the lack of capital letters and finishing of each statement with cheers lol is rewarded here with extra stars?


THE KINGS (OF UNPROVOKED SNARK)
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BrennusWhiskey
BrennusWhiskey


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
The quickest H4 player
posted September 29, 2017 05:51 PM

verriker said:


THE KINGS (OF UNPROVOKED SNARK)


Thanks but the proper form is THE KINGS

The site is designated for players but it has also small forum waiting for your cheers lol (with no bonus stars)

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trashid
trashid


Famous Hero
posted September 29, 2017 06:23 PM

verriker said:
@trashid, oh for sure mate, I even got bookmarked the actual post of Gus Smedstad that he got the big H4 designer job basically by saying let's turn Heroes into those two games which he was a fan of lol,
I am just saying that even beyond that you must consider that those factions were deliberately written out not only as far back as early production of Heroes 4 but even as early as Heroes 3, and they do not exist in any H4 design documents going as far back as 2000, thus there is no reason to believe they were produced or considered, let alone cut out at the eleventh hour lol



Hah, thanks for the bookmark. But they blew up the whole world so they could have done whatever they wanted. I saw a quote that there was too much lore to handle for them, so they reduced it. I too doubt there was any plan to make a full kreegan alignment or any other - they were designed the way they are.
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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted September 29, 2017 09:02 PM

We have big pictures. No dubt it is a town lineup:









Similiar colors, one design, the same style. Its inferno Kreegan faction last minut partitited by 2 and pasted in two cities. Its not only my fantasion. We have units and big screens. And we know that last games are unfinished. No dubt.

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trashid
trashid


Famous Hero
posted September 29, 2017 11:22 PM

The propable reason for that is the fact that creators wanted the line-ups to correspond to the border line-ups. Like the phoenix in nature has life affinity (resurrection - life spell) and faerie dragon has chaos affinity (chaos spells). In original game you have to have the nature anex to build hydras and death anex to build dragons. Other alignments like death are parted in half, only it is less visible. So there is a demon-like part in chaos, as there is a nature one.
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 29, 2017 11:41 PM

Quote:
Tatalians were wiped (RIP) in the backstory because Kilgor also did a big genocide before the contra with Gelu


Actually they were stated at the end to be in another continent passing trough the portals and they were planned to return in NWC Heroes 5

Quote:
Does the lack of capital letters and finishing of each statement with cheers lol is rewarded here with extra stars?


Don't forget lack of punctuation marks .

But now I see why they took your signature from you cheers lol :V

Quote:
for one thing the Kreegans were wiped in Heroes 3 by the genocide from the Erathians

Like they cared, they wrote back kreegans in H3 expansions after they were defeated just because they had to scrap the Forge, and here we have Kreegans again, so...
Also there has to bee a lot of kreegans in the universe since they colonize/ravage many planets and stuff and they have traveling technology, not hard to do at all.

And the conflux comes from the elemental planes, as long as there are elemental planes, there can be a Conflux.

__________________

I would like to know how to change the annexes. In the game they are only known as "first library" and "second library" for town construction purposes, so probably the magic they give is a single byte in the .exe (00 for life, 01 for something else, 04 for death, etc., as we have seen on hero type aligment) . If we find something like that please tell.

Quote:
We have big pictures. No dubt it is a town lineup:


Well Baronus, in my mod that is basically the town lineup of Inferno, too bad nobody here seems to play it and then they suggest to do the same things I have already done like nobody ever did it


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Karmakeld
Karmakeld


Famous Hero
posted September 30, 2017 12:10 AM

I have to support Verriker. Simply read the Bullard files if you're in doubt. General Kendal's (scrapped) diary contains parts that explains the Fortress faction vanishing with the old world (we know this was production notes). Indeed we have the hint of 1 Gnoll hero sketch and the unfinished gnoll hut (which got replaced by berserker), but that's a single creature. The rest got scattered to other factions. Most factions merged, which Kendal's diary also describe (like the dwarves and centaurs leaving Rampart).

Gauldoth's story contains parts that explains the merge between the undead and the Kreegans, although we don't (currently) have the original script for that story, I very much doubt they re-wrote it to fit.

Even the original kingdom overview doesn't mention Fortress, Inferno or Bastion, and the only discarded campaigns we know of, is Unity and Every Dog Has It's Day.

I find some sense in Trashid's borderline explanation, atleast I find it more reasonable than bandits belonging with (extinct) Kreegans/Inferno.

Indeed we can locate a lot of planned features and ideas both within game files and the Bullard files, but nothing I've found, suggests additonal faction designs/line up. As Verriker wrote, the original line up can be found in the Bullard files.

Nothing wrong with the suggested line up(changes), but I too lack some actual proof or quotesqq to support the idea. Untill then I would call it speculations.


As for Verriker's star, I've heard a rumor that for each 50 'cheers lol' he posts, he earns another red star/QP. I guess it's got to do with his awsomeness or something.. lol..

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Jonny Come Sometime
posted September 30, 2017 12:53 AM
Edited by verriker at 00:54, 30 Sep 2017.

Baroonus

Baronus said:
Similiar colors, one design, the same style. Its inferno Kreegan faction last minut partitited by 2 and pasted in two cities. Its not only my fantasion. We have units and big screens. And we know that last games are unfinished. No dubt.


mate let's overlook you ignoring everything I said about literally having seen the earliest design documents of the game and all of that, you can't just say they're all the same faction just because they're all the same colour mate, come on that's racist against red and orange people man,
come on man be fair, the Efreeti broke the alliance with the Kreegans and went off to burn stuff because they thought the Kreegans proved to be a bunch of incompetent clowns and that is their right to think that, they are not all the same thing man they have their own brain and agenda, that's a bit racist, it's like saying the Trolls and the Goblins and Orcs need to have the same brains and be married to the same Ogres forever because they are all green people, come on peace no prejudice buddy cheers lol

NimoStar said:
Actually they were stated at the end to be in another continent passing trough the portals and they were planned to return in NWC Heroes 5


give a source for that mate (and not a Mickey Mouse source like Baronus is doing (no offence Baronus mate only ribbing about, you're a good egg)), as said the Diary of Kendal says Tatalia was conquered utterly and ethnically cleansed by Kilgor, it doesn't say what you said there lol
who knows why are there Lizards in the true Heroes 5, that game had whack lineups like Minotaurs hanging with Valkyries and stuff, I do not think it was very relevant to Heroes 4 or its world lol

NimoStar said:
Like they cared, they wrote back kreegans in H3 expansions after they were defeated just because they had to scrap the Forge, and here we have Kreegans again, so...
Also there has to bee a lot of kreegans in the universe since they colonize/ravage many planets and stuff and they have traveling technology, not hard to do at all.

And the conflux comes from the elemental planes, as long as there are elemental planes, there can be a Conflux.


bear in mind that was only because of the nasty death threat of the fans mate, they did care a great deal but if you tell me "I will kill you" I would probably drop what I am doing and bring back the Kreegans too if necessary to be fair, otherwise they would not have been involved lol
also I actually like that the Kreegans was brought back and Eeofol painstakingly conquered bit by bit in a big epic campaign to do them justice, if you say all of them were destroyed by the events in H3 vanilla and MM7 then that was much too easy and throwaway to kill them, it makes more sense after AB lol

about the Conflux you are right that it is not so hard to make up an ass pull to explain why it could come back (after all there is not even an ass pull offered as to why it is there in Armageddon's Blade to begin with lol), but IMHO they probably did not just shelve it for that reason but also because they came to the correct conclusion that it is a ****** concept for a town, I mean come on the elementals are all unique, equal and opposite to each other, they shouldn't be shoved together at gunpoint to be an unified society like that, it's silly and uninspired lol

anyway the point isn't whether or not it would be easy to have these factions back but to note the obvious that they clearly had no intention of bringing them back for H4 vanilla, they had all exited stage right unlike the remaining six factions cheers lol cheers lol
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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted September 30, 2017 01:18 AM

Spells are another question. If they want eg. fireblast for life unit and all magic missiles putted in chaos magic they must use this in life. Its not a faction joining.
Jennifer Bullard probably never told that magic terrains was planned but we have it in game. Never told about old man we have it. About rockman we have it etc etc etc. We have a lot of unused resources that creators never told... NWC was bankruptcy and creators dislike told about what wasnt manage.
Story is easiest thing to made. Whats the problem write if they dont finished inferno. Kreegans join to necro? Because they fited story to final product ofcourse. They not a dumbs. What is simplest? Build new city or write some words?
But As I pasted design is design. Resources are ingame. A lot of unused.
We have removed units. To made place for inferno units they removed eyes harpies and troglodytes. And downgrade lvls minotaurs and medusas.
Correctly chaos lineup
1lvl troglodytes no bandits
2lvl harpies eyes
3 lvl medusas mintaurs
All is correct all this unit is in game
In necro they removed zombies for imps
And probably mumies for cerberi.
They didint finished liches so to have mimnimum 1 shooter pasted completly dont fited to town green plant... Which is probably nature...
And black knight was removed for devils. Next gived in expansion. And its chaos hero for more... chaos....
...

No dubt. We have so many removed units. Only 48 units you have in normal recrutation. 19!!! outside it (basic game city generators). To compare in HI 24 in towns 4 neutrals i HII 57 in towns 8 neutrals in Restoration of Erathia you have 112 recrutable units and 6! neutrals. This abnormal number of ,,neutrals" is of course that some towns was cutted. Making big number of neutrals is a nonsense if you cant play them.

And practically all conflux you have in failed creature portal. Made last minute with dont working AI.
All ingame we see last minut decisions. Dont fited units chaotic builded factions etc.
Do you thought why we have so many unused hero bios in table? Because they unfinished some factions of course.
Unfinishig this game is a fact. Weird is searching rational justifications for nonsenses like fire ifrits in swamp or green plant unit in death. Only reason of it is fast date of game publication.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


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posted September 30, 2017 01:57 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 02:22, 30 Sep 2017.

Quote:
give a source for that mate (...)  Tatalia was conquered utterly and ethnically cleansed by Kilgor

Quote:
bear in mind that was only because of the nasty death threat of the fans mate, they did care a great deal but if you tell me "I will kill you" I would probably drop what I am doing and bring back the Kreegans too if necessary to be fair


You know how hard is to get sources. I am not about this sort of "developer's encyclopedia"; I told you I only knew about Hope and Despair this year.

Yet we have Hydras which were Tatalian creatures. Also kreegans were "completely defeated" and yet we have kreegans again and you justify it.

If we can say that kreegans can survive and bring back, also can Lizards. Lizards lay hundreds of eggs, and are independent from birth, and it is MUCH of a stretch to believe a simple-minded barbarian can exterminate them all forever. Not even nazis were that efficient.

Plus, if death threats would be such a magic wand to get what fans want, we should have used them against Erwin - Developers themselves said that "much anti-forge sentiment" and "not enough pro-forge activity" were the real reasons.

Plus, kreegans in H4 have a prosthetic metal trident for a hand and don't look much fantasy unlike the H3 ones, hinting at their techno-organic origins, don't have satanic amulets or imagery unlike their previous ones with all the pentagrams and stars and stuff... to purge them from such references, and THEN make them magical necromancers, lacks much sense.

Let's be honest, NWC Heroes games were never "reverse-engineered" from the lore like Ashan games were, and I am actually glad for that (Oh noes! We need one type of resource for every "dragon god" Also one town for each "dragon god", etc.). We have statements for them NWC wanting to be less lore-heavy for game development in H4. So gameplay content is first, lore is then fitted second. From this perspective some of Baronus's theories are not so stretched as it might seem. Plus the colors and beast content in H4, and the large number of neutrals, is actually severely off from the other games. As you yourself mentioned some creatures were changed alignements, so it is not a stretch at all to think creatures were created first and their towns assembled second, possibly different than what the creature's 3D modellers had in mind when they made them.

We have further proof of this in that towns are assembled from different building models instead of having one unified theme screen, so recruitment buildings can easily be switched between towns (modelled for one, then pegged to other).

The creature portal has logic as just a way to put so many neutrals thatwere made for another town in an existing one. This taking into account it was such a rushed feature that the AI wasn't even programmed to use it (and no matter how you change the creature codes, Waspworts always appear as default).

Not only that, but besides the fact that they made all Conflux creatures and then some more, Conflux also fits as the last piece in H4 town logic (unlike H3 fortress sadly). Five magics, one town for each magic, then a town without any magic, what is missing? A town with all magics, of course. Such was to be probably the Conflux, following its H3 themes of four elemental magic teaching. We have also seventh unfinished semi-town, ingame the "Outpost".

Devils as a fire-themed creature summoning "Ice Demons", that never made any sense at all...
And all the flavor text in the tables about "Efreeti going to chaos" and "Demons taking on necromancy" for the hero biographies that sound exactly like "No, I'm not making this up as we write the descriptions, I promise!"

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