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| Thread: mass killings outside the u.s. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Salamandre
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posted March 21, 2019 08:42 PM |
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hey, I am not defending weapons usage, I never did. What I say is that mass killings - translate terrorist attacks, outside of US have way more complex reasons to happen than the usual "alt-right white guy" or "hateful muslim" and even with weapon control they will continue if people choose to ignore the causes. And this I mean for both sides.
For your weapon problem in US, I don't think there is any solution. Lobbies are too powerful and presidents are their puppets. Then there is the constitutional right. You had democrats in the house, republicans too, what happened? nothing.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 21, 2019 08:55 PM |
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Salamandre said:
JollyJoker said:
What are you going to do?
Yeah, because when water dumps out of the pot, you keep pouring water into the pot. So smart.
Look. If you have problems NOW, those problems won't magically disappear when you seal off your country. If, as you say, parallel societies hate each other, then they already do. Letting no one else into your country won't stop that.
It will, however, raise tensions higher. Obviously.
If your point is, ah, but if we seal off we can go at solving the rest, then that makes no sense either, because NOT sealing off isn't keeping you from solving "the rest". It's like you have a couple of hurting teeth, and your dentist says, well, let's look at your other teeth and make sure they don't start to rot as well.
You'd change your dentist, because it doesn't help your hurting teeth to look at the others.
France - as other countries as well - has no problem whatsoever to use immigrants in sports. look at this. And it's not only that way in football - nor just in France.
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Blizzardboy
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posted March 21, 2019 09:06 PM |
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Salamandre said:
For your weapon problem in US, I don't think there is any solution. Lobbies are too powerful and presidents are their puppets. Then there is the constitutional right. You had democrats in the house, republicans too, what happened? nothing.
Of course there are solutions, silly goose 
The majority of Americans DO support stricter gun regulations. Not necessarily a full ban on handguns, but at least on stricter regulations. So, in terms of popularity among the public alone, there are positive signs.
As far as the gun lobby, it is powerful but plenty of politicians are not on board with it, so scratch that thought.
Many states have already taken measures to limit access to guns, and many of these states enjoy lower homicide rates. That being said, it makes it difficult for these laws to be highly effective when in neighboring states the laws can be significantly difficult, which is why federal regulations would be helpful.
USA's violent crime has been steadily decreasing for the past 25 years, with the exception - believe it or not - of the recent year. Hopefully it was just a blip and the positive trend will continue. Don't look at social media for signs of the times. Social media feeds on negativity and conflict and the latest mass shooting. Statistically, things are relatively optimistic.
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blob2
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posted March 21, 2019 11:00 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
If you have problems NOW, those problems won't magically disappear when you seal off your country. If, as you say, parallel societies hate each other, then they already do. Letting no one else into your country won't stop that.
I think that the problem is not "letting people inside" but who they let in. I'm not against emigration, but I want people to give something in return. While logistically complicated imo the only solution is to control what the people you let in do. Check their backstory (if can't find anything then extra control should be issued), half a year to find a job. If don't wanna, then insta deportation. If they were leeches in their own country, they won't magically change. I know countries have an issue to even keep their own population at bay (we hear of crazy people attacks and crimes everyday), but at least some sort of control should be put on the people who are given a credit of trust. Stop giving them everything, start to demand. There is no other way...
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Blizzardboy
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posted March 22, 2019 02:41 AM |
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Eastern Europe would already be well on its way to catching up with Western Europe if it wasn't losing its best citizens to better-paying countries, but you can't blame those people
Eastern work ethic and motivation > Western. A lot of the best kids in my high school were Russians who worked their asses off. Too bad Russia didn't get to keep them. Yay for us 
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Doomforge
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posted March 22, 2019 08:12 AM |
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From a "3rd world country"'s perspective, you're getting a load of unqualified immigrants from here, trust me on this. It's just way easier to "fit in" an environment when you're going to do menial labor, particularly of physical kind: you need a couple common words at best. On the other hand, in my current job (a mixture of engineering, probability and security) it's a whole different matter. I'm pretty much proficient in English but I'd seriously struggle, there's just so many exotic terms, expressions and general wordplay... not easy to learn and you're not expected to come unprepared and learn as you go, you're expected to sell yourself during a job interview... And sure, there are specialistic dictionaries, but none of them contain the industry jargon you desperately need to know.
Unless you're in an environment that already uses sort of a unified English as base (such as programming), you're going to struggle. A lot. Not to mention that some countries have pretty unfair immigration rules. Take US for instance. Seriously, a lottery?
That being said, I'm not sure countries really need specialists. I know they say they do, but what they really want is cheap labor. Even Po(or)land is mostly interested in people from Ukraine and Belarus, and that's because they want less than Poles when doing simple tasks. And Poles want 600 euros per month. Which is seemingly too much for our local "businessmen" 
Either way, if you ask me about Polish shootings, I'll tell you right away: there's pretty much none. Sure, people stab each other, there was this guy last year or so who axed a kid because he couldn't find a job and he was pissed off (!), but shooting are completely exotic here, almost to a point of never happening. And what the hell is a "home invasion"? we don't have those  strict gun laws work clearly in the favor of people here. And trust me on this, Poles with weapons would start killing each other over a "neighborly argument". Giving them weapons would be like arming monkeys and expecting them to behave civilly.
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blob2
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posted March 22, 2019 09:29 AM |
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Doomforge said:
And trust me on this, Poles with weapons would start killing each other over a "neighborly argument". Giving them weapons would be like arming monkeys and expecting them to behave civilly.
Well, it's not that bad. Like everywhere, there are normal people and idiots.
Which makes me wonder if the resolution like in the "Purge" movie isn't a bad idea afterall...
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Salamandre
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posted March 22, 2019 07:26 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
If you have problems NOW, those problems won't magically disappear when you seal off your country. If, as you say, parallel societies hate each other, then they already do. Letting no one else into your country won't stop that.
Is this some kind of joke? So your body is full of sugar, got diabetes, if you stop consuming sugar it won't heal automatically, that I get. But keep eating sugar, how is that good?? Islamism is a cancer.
JollyJoker said:
It will, however, raise tensions higher. Obviously.
Where? Who? How you know? A majority of people want immigration - from specific places - to seriously tone down. As for the ones being offended (radical islamists?), snow them, a minority always will do everything they can to torn to shreds this world. Because they hate it.
JollyJoker said:
France - as other countries as well - has no problem whatsoever to use immigrants in sports.
So? Thats the scope of immigration and it always was, take the crème de la crème.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 22, 2019 08:17 PM |
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Funnily enough, yes, you have to continue to consume sugar when you have diabetes. If you don't produce insulin , you inject it, and when you inject it, you need to eat something the insulin can work with, otherwise you will undersugar and may fall into a coma (which is what many don*t understand), so if you wanted to pick something that works for you, you picked wrong.
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It will, however, raise tensions higher. Obviously.
Where? Who? How you know? A majority of people want immigration - from specific places - to seriously tone down. As for the ones being offended (radical islamists?), snow them, a minority always will do everything they can to torn to shreds this world. Because they hate it.
Yes. And tomorrow you will be part of a minority. The jews were a minority as well...
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France - as other countries as well - has no problem whatsoever to use immigrants in sports.
So? Thats the scope of immigration and it always was, take the crème de la crème.
No, you don't. Because it's not the stars who immigrate, but their parents. You never know what you might get and how things work out. Australia has been a giant prison basically. The US are a nation of immigrants. France has the same problems than the UK as an ex colonial power. It has to solve the problems coming with that.
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Blizzardboy
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posted March 22, 2019 11:24 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
France has the same problems than the UK as an ex colonial power. It has to solve the problems coming with that.
I've heard this from you before and it still makes zero sense. People asked you to elaborate and you couldn't.
Most European Muslim immigrants to W. Europe and other groups from Africa & Asia are from 1950s and later, i.e. post-colonialism, excluding France's dumbass war in the 60s.
European countries that had either few colonies are no colonies are experiencing the same political issues, i.e. Hungary, Denmark, Germany, etc.
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artu
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posted March 23, 2019 12:07 AM |
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I don’t think North African countries being ex-colonies make all the difference either, but the level of animosity between the locals and the minorities seems much higher in France, at least from where I look. Not exactly sure why that is.
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Blizzardboy
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posted March 23, 2019 12:16 AM |
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France was in a full-blown war in North Africa as recently as the 1960s so I guess that could contribute. Also quantity. There are more Muslims in France than in the UK or Germany so the clash is more noticeable.
I hate to bring up stereotypes but French snobbery has a grounding in reality. They're among the least willing people in ANY Western country to tolerate people of a different background living with them. I'm not sure how this came about. The idea of France being elegant and beautiful and refined goes back for centuries, long before colonialism even got started in the Americas, let alone in Africa. In the High Middle Ages, French was the language of choice in royal courts other than just France. After so many generations that attitude becomes imprinted from generation to generation. As far away as Japan and S Korea, France is viewed (more than other countries) as being exquisite and romantic, etc.
But saying that it is all colonialism doesn't really make sense. The UK was colonial power and superpower #1 and Italy was barely a colonial power at all but they're about the same in terms of immigrant problems. People don't go out on the streets and riot because of something that happened 75 years ago. They do it because of conflict in the present.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 23, 2019 09:04 AM |
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Both Britain and France have a high amount of, well, "immigrants" from their former colonies (who speak the language). Meaning, that special rules of immigration have been in existence for them. This is true as well, for example, for the Netherlands. Germany has a different history that led to basically the same thing, that there is a substantial "immigrant" population.
The last wave of refugees has nothing to do with it.
Brexit, for example, isn't a reaction to "refugees", but an unwillingness of the Brits to open their country for people from the Eastern European EC member states.
Specifically, France has always been an immigration country.
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Neraus
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posted March 23, 2019 09:56 AM |
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Edited by Neraus at 09:57, 23 Mar 2019.
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@BB
The refinedness of French is a scam, the worst sound you could ever hear is French spoken by someone of the lower classes, the only comparable language is Neapolitan, and guess what, Neapolitan tries to imitate French in its sound.
The root of the French fame for refinedness is their monarchs, and I suspect that Louis XIV is the one who gave the greatest contribution to this fame (Versailles and all), yet they always were a poor imitation of Italian high culture, the one that actually inspired the courtly culture of Europe, and the English know something about it.
It's ironic that what gave the idea of a refined culture is what France abhors the most, the absolute monarchy.
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Salamandre
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posted March 23, 2019 04:24 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
so if you wanted to pick something that works for you, you picked wrong.
How easy you elude when you have no argument. It was a metaphor, when you got too much of something, the only way to back is to tone down, not to take even more. Doesn't take to be Einstein to dig what I was comparing. yet...
JollyJoker said:
And tomorrow you will be part of a minority. The jews were a minority as well...
Oh no, again the jews argument. Nonsense, no comparison at all.
artu said:
animosity between the locals and the minorities seems much higher in France, at least from where I look. Not exactly sure why that is.
Short answer: numbers.
Long answer: numbers.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 23, 2019 04:59 PM |
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Salamandre said:
JollyJoker said:
so if you wanted to pick something that works for you, you picked wrong.
How easy you elude when you have no argument. It was a metaphor, when you got too much of something, the only way to back is to tone down, not to take even more. Doesn't take to be Einstein to dig what I was comparing. yet...
Except that the example you picked is an example for you being wrong. That it's not true that the only way back is to tone down. Also, it's just YOUR opinion that "you got too much of something". It's not even an analysis of the problem, it's just polemics.
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JollyJoker said:
And tomorrow you will be part of a minority. The jews were a minority as well...
Oh no, again the jews argument. Nonsense, no comparison at all.
You give no reason, no nothing. You have no point. Had you ever any?
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Blizzardboy
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posted March 23, 2019 09:17 PM |
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Salamandre
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posted March 23, 2019 11:33 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Also, it's just YOUR opinion that "you got too much of something".
Well of course it is an opinion, just as yours. The thing is how an opinion is backed public wide - to see how popular is, or if you take all polls on immigration, Islam and refugees, yours is in the minority. Deal with it.
JollyJoker said:
You give no reason, no nothing. You have no point. Had you ever any?
About comparison between jews and muslims, or recalling nazis each time people complain about immigration into their next door? I find such comparisons ignorant and of extreme bad faith, you disqualify the moment when you bring them. No need to give any reason.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 24, 2019 08:14 AM |
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Salamandre said:
JollyJoker said:
Also, it's just YOUR opinion that "you got too much of something".
Well of course it is an opinion, just as yours. The thing is how an opinion is backed public wide - to see how popular is, or if you take all polls on immigration, Islam and refugees, yours is in the minority. Deal with it.
JollyJoker said:
You give no reason, no nothing. You have no point. Had you ever any?
About comparison between jews and muslims, or recalling nazis each time people complain about immigration into their next door? I find such comparisons ignorant and of extreme bad faith, you disqualify the moment when you bring them. No need to give any reason.
You still don't make sense.
I'm going to try a last time to explain the problem.
You live in France, and for you - and others - something is wrong IN FRANCE. This group you are part of identifies the problem - it's people from a certain region with a certain religion who are at odds with what is "French". The first thing to note is, that this is very vague.
Secondly, the demand is, close the borders for those people.
However - that won't solve the problems there already ARE in France. Because you have to repair what IS wrong somehow, and either you don't see that or don't want to see that and maybe believe in miracles, or you do see that and have no clue what to do to get those already in the country in line or you have a clue, but it's too radical to tell or something like that.
Again, I point you to the link of the French World Champion soccer team from 2018. Basically half of them have their ancestry in French sub-sahara colonies, while one third of them are muslims.
You don't become world champions, if you have serious problems within a team. So obviously, no matter, who you identify as being a problem, it's no FUNDAMENTAL problem.
Then there are the facts. France has been an immigration country since the 19th century. The immigration rate is pretty stable with around 200.000 people a year. Before the wave of refugees (which are not immigrants), about 45% of the immigrants came from other European countries, 30%, from Algeria, Tunisia or Morocco and 10% from the ex-French sub-sahara states. The muslim population in France is estimated at 7-9%.(In Britain there are 4.4% muslims; however, one third of the pop is either not declaring their religion or have none, officially).
At this point, I read somewhere, that 40% of the current Fremch population have immigration ancestry.
So, with immigration being a substantial and obviously positive factor for France for over a century, the problem, if there is any, CANNOT be immigration as such.
So what IS the problem, then, and how do you suggest to solve it?
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ajalex
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posted April 13, 2019 05:36 AM |
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Mass killing is a problem everywhere, not just US.
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