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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Were Conflux and Necropolis over nerfed in HotA?
Thread: Were Conflux and Necropolis over nerfed in HotA? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
monere
monere


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted August 24, 2018 12:04 AM

I've never played HotA, so I can't comment on any stuff going on with that version. The last version I've played is WoG, and even though I still play WoG often (several times a year) against the AI for nostalgic reasons I still haven't tested / explored everything in WoG, either

But I like how badass-ly the creature specialists specialize in WoG. Now their specialty really matters because instead of the dull +1 att/def per level that those heroes used to get in vanilla versions in WoG their specialty gets % health per level, plus 5-10 damage, plus the usually +1 att/def per level, and so on. It really makes tier 6 creatures for example nearly as good as level 7 creatures. Actually, I've played Tamika some months ago and I think that the dread knights were dealing 3x damage than the ghost dragons, even though I was only having like 30-35% or so more DKs than GDs. It was cool

P4R4D0X0N said:
For my personal taste I would love necro amplifier to be reverted back to 10%, rest is fine. I personally see conflux to be one of the towns that will be very strong after the magic balance update in HotA. The Academy is expensive you you never get any problems with "perfect skilled" characters anymore.

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Otuken
Otuken


Famous Hero
posted August 24, 2018 12:10 AM

If Conflux is weak town then why is the town always banned in PvP matches? Because there is somethings that more important than raw unit stats.
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monere
monere


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted August 24, 2018 12:30 AM

Yeah, I never understood why they ban it...

Otuken said:
If Conflux is weak town then why is the town always banned in PvP matches? Because there is somethings that more important than raw unit stats.

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Djangoo
Djangoo


Adventuring Hero
posted August 24, 2018 02:49 PM

Magic University for Pixies went way overboard. Once you get University the pixes are one shot material usuakly.

Phoenix Nerf was good.

I also agree with many posts asking to bring back necro amplifier to its original value. If people only ask for this and not to bring all other values back,thats a good indication that HotA balanced it almost perfectly.

Although I agree that Ghost Dragons are worst Tier 7 I strongly dislike changing unit stats.

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Otuken
Otuken


Famous Hero
posted August 24, 2018 03:56 PM

The worst 7.th level unit is obviusly ArchDevil because it is 1.5 times more expensive than Ghost Dragon without any magic immunity and having the same HP. Ghost Dragons have also better damage range, decreasing enemy morale/aging and having mind spell immunuities makes them much more better unit than ArchDevil. 3 Ghost Dragon are much more valuable than 2 ArchDevil. BTW Ghost Dragon's dwelling is also cheaper.


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P4R4D0X0N
P4R4D0X0N


Famous Hero
posted August 24, 2018 04:10 PM

oO Devils are damn OP with their speed and ability to bypass retailiation... You also find them in masses on maps. It's one of the lvl 7 creature buildings that are always present in the underground. Coz underground lacks lots of objects.

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Winston
Winston


Known Hero
posted August 25, 2018 06:25 AM

Not sure that you can tell when everything has been nerfed in HotA at this point or just removed from the game if they decided that they don't like playing against it.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted August 29, 2018 05:41 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 17:48, 29 Aug 2018.

Archdevils bring -2 negative luck. This stuff is brutal against a hero with 0 luck, almost acting like a free armorer to your hero, essentially one of the best specials in the game. If you can push it to -3 you'll see a ton of unlucky hits.

Magma elementals are quite funny with Erdogan, I mean Erdamon. Or the other Earth Elemental guy.

Tier 5, no Earth elemental specialst:



Tier 5, Elemental specialist around:



Quite impressive change, eh? And he doesn't need levels to pull this off.

DPW is damage per week (or per population), EHP is effective HP. All of this assumes the attacker has 20 ATT and the defender has 20 DEF.

Also, if you wonder why Bone/Ghost drags suck:



Their population is less threatening than a population of wolf raiders. Of course, they don't die nearly as fast, but...

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Otuken
Otuken


Famous Hero
posted August 29, 2018 11:29 PM

ArchDevil is still terrible unit even in HotA. Easily the worst 7.th level unit in terms of cost effeciency. Ghost Dragon is reasonable unit. Have the same HP with ArchDevils with better abilities
, better damage ranges with %50 less price plus mind spell immunity. It shows that how sucks Archdevil.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 30, 2018 09:12 AM

No retaliation, 1 hex. If used wisely archdevils can be amazing at times and achieve what others can't.

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Otuken
Otuken


Famous Hero
posted August 31, 2018 12:08 AM

Yes they are great at taking of slow huge stacks with zero casualty but they are physically very weak with low damage output. I have been trying using  them properly in full scale battles/sieges. I push wait button but when I pass devil's turn, opponents casts damage spells and kill them with their ranged units. Maybe there are some great tactics with devils?
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted August 31, 2018 03:51 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 04:04, 31 Aug 2018.

No retaliation is an overstated ability, all creatures have "No retaliation" power if you just hit something that retaliated before, and you can trigger this easily with spam, even clones or summons.

Anyways if you need an specialty just to make a creature vaguely usable, that is bad.

Conflux creatures are bad. Conflux was good because of Phoenix and Magic Elemental, with Phoenix nerfed in HotA and all elementals still sucking, there isn't much of a chance.

Ther magic university needed for FIRST level creature is just the nail on the coffin.

What are you going to do, cast Protect Air? :V

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monere
monere


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted August 31, 2018 08:16 AM

NimoStar said:
Anyways if you need an specialty just to make a creature vaguely usable, that is bad.


Umm... not really. I'm sure that the developers could have given no ability to any of the creatures, but simply give all of them equally balanced stats (att / def / damage / HPs) and the game would have worked just as fine. BUT, where's the fun in that??

In all honesty, in strategic games like Heroes the replayability and fun comes from the game complexity and in order to make a strategic game complex you add as many elements to it as you possibly can so that players always have at least 2-3 solutions to every tactic they wanna use or must play against. And in Heroes the strategical depth comes SPECIFICALLY from the multitude of creature abilities, creature types, artifacts, spells, and skills.

So, it's not about needing a specialty to make a creature usable, but rather needing a specialty to add complexity to the game in order to make it fun and replayable.

Everything else you've said I agree with. I've never played HotA, but if what you're saying is true (needing magic university to build the sprites building)... well, no comment! Conflux has been weak anyway, even before HotA, but with this modification I doubt there is even one single person playing that town, even if for nostalgic reasons. Personally, Conflux is one of the H3 towns that I've always liked (along Rampart and Fortress), and I've played it many times due to this very fact, even if most of the times I've lost when I've played with it. But, with the change HotA has made not even I would play that town anymore

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Sav
Sav


Known Hero
posted August 31, 2018 10:06 AM

monere said:
Conflux has been weak anyway, even before HotA, but with this modification I doubt there is even one single person playing that town, even if for nostalgic reasons.

The practise shows that Conflux (as well as Necropolis) is among the most preferred towns in HotA for online games.

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monere
monere


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted August 31, 2018 10:11 AM
Edited by monere at 10:12, 31 Aug 2018.

Sav said:
monere said:
Conflux has been weak anyway, even before HotA, but with this modification I doubt there is even one single person playing that town, even if for nostalgic reasons.

The practise shows that Conflux (as well as Necropolis) is among the most preferred towns in HotA for online games.


Not trying to be a d1ck or anything, but can you show me some stats? Because I've rarely seen people play Conflux before HotA and it seems hard to believe that Conflux is more popular after HotA's changes than without. If you can show some stats, good. If not, no big deal

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Sav
Sav


Known Hero
posted August 31, 2018 10:52 AM
Edited by Sav at 11:00, 31 Aug 2018.

Online games are usually played with barter: players perform it for the possibility of selecting best town from two random ones, and one who wins it transefrs to the opponent some gold at the beginning of the game. So, best towns start with less gold, and the winrate doesn't show the real power of the towns (see here for the detailed description of barter rules).

The best way to compare towns is to collect statistics of barters. It is possible in case of streamers, but I don't know if someone did it. I've seen not once when player payed for playing Coonflux or Necropolis, but searching videos would be hard (and most of them are not stored so long).

Still, (at least in Russian community) there are some tournaments, where the player plays one town in all games, so no barter is held.

There are two such team tournament in HotA: http://forum.heroesworld.ru/showthread.php?t=12350 and http://forum.heroesworld.ru/showthread.php?t=14208. First tournament was finished, and Conflux team played in final. The second tournament is in the beginning stage, but the Conflux and Necropolis were the first towns selected by team captains.

Also there is non-team tournament with fixed towns: http://forum.heroesworld.ru/showthread.php?t=14302. It is not finished, and from 48 players 7 selected Conflux and 6 selected Necropolis.

Of course, this is not representative, but at least it shows that not no one selects Conflux and Necropolis.

***

In SoD Necropolis and Conflux are also very popular, athough the are played with rather restrictive rules (no Vampire Lords, no Necro Amplifier, no upgrade of Pixies, Psy. Elemental and Firebirds, and some other). In HotA there are no such additional rules.

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monere
monere


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted August 31, 2018 11:19 AM
Edited by monere at 11:47, 31 Aug 2018.

Thanks for the links. I'll take a look and see what this barter thing is cause I've never heard of it before... I mean, with regards to HOMM

Also, those SoD rules that you've mentioned are so idiotic that I can't even...

Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to help newbies like me understand what is going on with all these versions of Heroes 3 and all these weird terms

Cheers!

EDIT: after reading on the barter topic I still couldn't figure out what the deal with bartering is (for example why give money to the other player), but I switched to HC to say that some of those rules are music to my ears.

For instance: diplomacy, DD, and CotUK. Only God knows how many times I've lost because of these game breaking mechanics (along with Logistics specialists, which, oddly, I didn't see being addressed yet) and I'd often whine about these (downright cheats) back in the day before being taken seriously and stop being called wuss, newbie, rookie and the alikes. And now that I'm seeing them balanced or banned in competitive games warms my heart. Just wanted to say this

Ok, back to reading...

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Sav
Sav


Known Hero
posted August 31, 2018 11:59 AM

monere said:
EDIT: after reading on the barter topic I still couldn't figure out what the deal with bartering is (for example why give money to the other player)

The barter allows to chose towns randomly, but keep the balance: the random pair of towns is selected, and if you think that one of the towns in the pair is better than other, you can pay gold (in-game gold, of course) for playing it. So you will start with stronger town, but with less than default 10000 gold (online games are usually played on 160% difficulty).

In other ways of choosing towns the problem of non-equal town strength often force players to play only a few fixed town pairs, that reduces diversity.

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revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted August 31, 2018 12:02 PM

Barter is very simple. Let's say we play random towns and then we get to choose from the Tower and Necropolis. Template is for example jebus cross, just for the case of simplicity.

Now everybody knows Tower sucks and Necropolis is still (even after nerf) one of the strongest HotA town. So players start a barter to see who gets a better town. The player who gives the most gold wins the barter and gets to pick the town (obviously necropolis in this case)

Example:

Red: 1000 gold
Blue: 1500
Red: 2000
...
Blue:6000
Red:6500
Blue: ok yours

This means that the red player can play Necropolis and he starts with 6500 gold less, the blue player plays Tower with 6500 gold more.

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monere
monere


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted August 31, 2018 12:12 PM
Edited by monere at 12:14, 31 Aug 2018.

Sav said:
...and if you think that one of the towns in the pair is better than other, you can pay gold (in-game gold, of course) for playing it.


It still makes no sense to me (the bolded part I mean). Let's say Rampart and Dungeon are generated randomly and I think that Rampart is better than Dungeon, while my opponent thinks the other way around. Why should I give him more money because of what I think when he thinks the same about his town, even though he's not saying anything. One (or both) players could easily lie to the other by not telling him that he feels his town is stronger.

Like I said, this rule seems weird to me. I think with the exception of Necropolis (for the obvious reason of skeleton harvesting) all other towns should be just played without any rules. Well, without this money giving rule, anyway. Only Necroplis is really broken because of the skeleton harvesting feature, all other towns can easily be won against

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