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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Best hero in Heroes 3?
Thread: Best hero in Heroes 3? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 26, 2018 10:39 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 10:44, 26 Sep 2018.

Quote:
If Diplomacy is allowed then Cyra as you can with a massive Gremlin stack start the Diplomacy journey instantly.


Cyra is not as good as Ryland.

Though her specialty is not bad (Hasta is one of best spells and she has increased effect), she is magic hero, and as such will always have late-game disadvantage vs might hero.

Adela (with Bless specialty, how does that even work?) is also a Magic hero.

Diplomacy is influenced by Attack and Defense primary skills, but NOT by spell power and knowledge primary skills (funny how that works...)

So Ryland is the only Might hero with starting diplomacy and as such the best not-always-banned hero
And I'm not saying this just because it was my instinct in like 1999 and turns out I was right all along :V
(Heroes 3 without expansions had even more broken diplo, monsters never asked for money)

(Possibly even better than Necro ones, because Diplomacy will snowball faster than Necromancy)

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 26, 2018 11:07 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 11:08, 26 Sep 2018.

Diplomacy is indeed very powerful, probably the best skill, if there are no restrictions. (I don't think level 7 should ever be allowed to join and level 6 are questionable.)

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 26, 2018 11:29 AM

good point

phoenix4ever said:
Diplomacy is indeed very powerful, probably the best skill, if there are no restrictions. (I don't think level 7 should ever be allowed to join and level 6 are questionable.)

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted September 26, 2018 01:12 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 13:12, 26 Sep 2018.

NimoStar said:
Cyra is not as good as Ryland.
Though her specialty is not bad (Hasta is one of best spells and she has increased effect), she is magic hero, and as such will always have late-game disadvantage vs might hero.
Diplomacy is influenced by Attack and Defense primary skills, but NOT by spell power and knowledge primary skills (funny how that works...)

Cyra is better than Ryland because you will not main either of them. You want a large army from scratch and Tower tends to do that better than Rampart.

Attack and Defense does influence Diplomacy but the main ingredient is the army strength. So while attack/def is an extra bonus, your creature numbers/strength will play the biggest role.

NimoStar said:
(Possibly even better than Necro ones, because Diplomacy will snowball faster than Necromancy)
Depends on the map and the numbers of the same creature stack. Diplomacy gives a tremendous map clearing speed boost. But, unless you have multiple stacks of the same creatures to bolster their numbers, necromancy will still outperform the skill for the end battle.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 26, 2018 02:04 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 16:20, 26 Sep 2018.

Quote:
Cyra is better than Ryland because you will not main either of them. You want a large army from scratch and Tower tends to do that better than Rampart.

Attack and Defense does influence Diplomacy but the main ingredient is the army strength. So while attack/def is an extra bonus, your creature numbers/strength will play the biggest role.


Each gremlin has like 1/3 of the HP of a centaur (well, upgraded centaur has 2.5x the health of any gremlin). Presumably as such and because of their higher cost and speed, they have significantly higher AI values. So army strenght may still be higher for ryland.

Plus once you get the first neutrals the initial 40 or so gremlins stop counting.


Also Centaurs are much faster than Gremlins so you clear more creatures.

You can main Ryland easily, it also makes sense as he has to have the army to get the diplomacy, so it is more practical to make combat with banks and creatures that don't join with himself as well.

Quote:
Depends on the map and the numbers of the same creature stack. Diplomacy gives a tremendous map clearing speed boost. But, unless you have multiple stacks of the same creatures to bolster their numbers, necromancy will still outperform the skill for the end battle.


As you say it depends on map size, but there is to note that in "Month of" the map gets filled with creatures of the same type... so this gives Diplomacy a huge bonus if you clear them.

But the most OP combination is diplomacy AND necro town, since you can just send everything to the Skeleton Transformer.

At least nobody in the design team made that additional mistake to have a necro hero start with the skill...

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 26, 2018 02:29 PM

Off-topic, but... regarding Ryland

Played some 3-4 months ago against the AI and had like 8500 dendroid soldiers, among other level 6 and 7 creatures, while the AI had 8500 thunderbirdxs (again, among other level 6-7 creatures), and the AI also had 9 more ATT/DEF than my hero, and after losing to the fagg0t AI 3 times in a row and noticed that each time my 8500 dendroids were the last to die I have changed my tactics and finally won the game by nurturing and playing smartly with the dendroids.

And I wasn't even Ryland, nor did I do much about it (just cast bless on the dendroids), but the difference was noticeable. In the first 3 rounds - when the AI had defeated me - I would push the dendroids forward (knowing damn well that they're tanky and could take some good retaliations off until they die) and use my 2100 gold and 2100 black dragons to take down the AI's Titans, Archangels and Ancient Behemoths.

Well, guess what! My "almighty" dragons would deal a "whopping" 120k damage on Titans, while the dendroids would deal 300k damage LOL. Well, I don't remember the exact damage, but it was 300k or so. And that was without casting bless on them. Blessed, they dealt 400k damage on the Titans

I only mentioned this to agree with the above poster who said that ryland is better than cyra. I fully agree with him. Dendroids are nasty as f*ck, especially on Ryland, and especially when you start with diplomacy. I don't think anyone can defeat that hero on L-XL maps, not even with hoardes of skeletons. With the Cloak of the Undead King things might be different, but without that cheat item sorry, I don't see anyone capable of defeating Ryland in late game

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted September 26, 2018 03:48 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 16:18, 26 Sep 2018.

Ebonheart said:
Attack and Defense does influence Diplomacy but the main ingredient is the army strength. So while attack/def is an extra bonus, your creature numbers/strength will play the biggest role.

Not exactly and it's easy to test. Give one hero Expert Diplomacy and an army of X, then put several stacks of around X in the map and change the primary skills value. I've seen Azure Dragons join smaller groups of themselves in heroes with very large (above 30) might primary skills.

NimoStar said:
As you say it depends on map size, but there is to not that in "Month of" the map gets filled with creatures of the same type... so this gives Diplomacy a huge bonus if you clear them.

BTW, am I the only one missing the bug that allowed for high level creatures to appear in disproportinate numbers?
In my wildest dreams HotA team would remake month of the creature to make it possible for some late months to be of Archangels or Azure Dragons and numbers to be on the hundreds.
I recall a match where month 2 was month of the War Unicorn and they were legions. I ended the map with several heroes above level 50 and legions of War Unicorns but I had a town blocked for almost a month till I had enough army to convince them to join.
I was having a lot of fun in those days...
____________

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted September 27, 2018 04:24 PM

NimoStar said:
Each gremlin has like 1/3 of the HP of a centaur (well, upgraded centaur has 2.5x the health of any gremlin). Presumably as such and because of their higher cost and speed, they have significantly higher AI values. So army strenght may still be higher for ryland.
Plus once you get the first neutrals the initial 40 or so gremlins stop counting.
But the fact remains the Tower tends to start with more numbers than Rampart and that tips the AI value in its favor. Besides, 40 Gremlins? Who are you starting with? Piquedram? You will have at least 75.
NimoStar said:
Also Centaurs are much faster than Gremlins so you clear more creatures.
I have no idea how you made this connection tbh. Sure Gremlins aren't very fast but speed is seldomly that crucial on the map if you know how to kite and bait well with your fodder.
NimoStar said:
You can main Ryland easily, it also makes sense as he has to have the army to get the diplomacy, so it is more practical to make combat with banks and creatures that don't join with himself as well.
I never said you could not main Ryland, what I said was that you won't for he makes a poor main hero.  It's enough to get your Diplo hero to lv 3 (max 5 if bad skill up luck) and transfer any stat increasing artifacts to it.
Also your bank and creature dwell example is also somewhat off. Sure you can do them with your Diplomancy here but why would you if you got a better main that might need the experience?
NimoStar said:
As you say it depends on map size, but there is to note that in "Month of" the map gets filled with creatures of the same type... so this gives Diplomacy a huge bonus if you clear them.
Once again this is a bit off. In theory it sounds good but in practice not so much.

The first issue that you run into is that you are relying on good RNG for the monthly creatures. For example, Month of the Titan would be far more valuable than say Month of the Centaur.

The second issue is that even if you had the luck to get a good Month of the X, you still need to travel around to harvest them all and since you likely only got 1x Diplomacy hero this will take time. A lot of time.
NimoStar said:
But the most OP combination is diplomacy AND necro town, since you can just send everything to the Skeleton Transformer.
Add in the luck of getting any dragons or hydras to that.
NimoStar said:
Not exactly and it's easy to test. Give one hero Expert Diplomacy and an army of X, then put several stacks of around X in the map and change the primary skills value. I've seen Azure Dragons join smaller groups of themselves in heroes with very large (above 30) might primary skills.
I did not say that strong  Primary Skills can't affect the join rate. What I said was that army strength is the key factor. So while the primary stats can help, army numbers tends to make the difference.
Besides, on a large map you are likely to encounter several Attack/Defense items so that reduces the special hero need further.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 27, 2018 05:55 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 17:58, 27 Sep 2018.

Quote:
But the fact remains the Tower tends to start with more numbers than Rampart and that tips the AI value in its favor. Besides, 40 Gremlins? Who are you starting with? Piquedram? You will have at least 75.


Which doesn't change the fact that ai-value wise they aren't worth more than the equivalent weekly centaurs.

Centaur captain
Growth 14
Ai Value 138

Master Gremlin
Growth 16
Ai Value 66

14*138 = 1932 army power for diplo (Centaur Captain weekly)
16*66 = 1056 army power for diplo (Master Gremlin weekly)

Centaur wins
*FATALITY*
(see http://heroes.thelazy.net/wiki/AI_value)

Quote:
I have no idea how you made this connection tbh. Sure Gremlins aren't very fast but speed is seldomly that crucial on the map if you know how to kite and bait well with your fodder.


You fail basic H3.
Creature speed determines army speed on adventure map,
thus its crucial to have fast creatures for clearing creature stacks.

Rampart has Centaur and Elf as 2/3 fast of first 3 creatures (also Pegasi are fast)
Tower only has Gargoyles as fast initial creatures, Gremlins and Golems are very slow.

Quote:
Once again this is a bit off. In theory it sounds good but in practice not so much.

The first issue that you run into is that you are relying on good RNG for the monthly creatures. For example, Month of the Titan would be far more valuable than say Month of the Centaur.

The second issue is that even if you had the luck to get a good Month of the X, you still need to travel around to harvest them all and since you likely only got 1x Diplomacy hero this will take time. A lot of time.


That is quite obvious, but the frequency of the spawn of creatures is enough that there are many of them.

The key part of this is that you get a lot of creatures that are the same. So unlike getting just one stack and being stuck with it, you make a stack grow very big. Also after getting the first creature the rest get a huge bonus to join because of same-type.

Another note:

In maps which use "mon1", "mon2", "mon3", all those "mon" of the same level will be of the same type.

Quote:
I never said you could not main Ryland, what I said was that you won't for he makes a poor main hero.  It's enough to get your Diplo hero to lv 3 (max 5 if bad skill up luck) and transfer any stat increasing artifacts to it.
Also your bank and creature dwell example is also somewhat off. Sure you can do them with your Diplomancy here but why would you if you got a better main that might need the experience?


Because you don't understand even the basics of what I said.

What is more efficient: Transferring army and artifacts between two heroes constantly (which will also hurt your diplomacy efforts), or just doing everything with the same hero?
Your diplo main already "Needs the experience".

level 20 probably like +8/+8 to attask/def
Each atk and def level adds like a +5% multiplier to Diplo
So this is basically a +80% to diplo, which due to the exponential natura of diplo it also lets you get even better stacks later and paying nothing.

Not to mention that if you get Ryland as starting hero, nothing guarantees you will get a "Better main" in the tavern. (Also as noted Dendroid specialty can be very good compared to other creatuyre specialties). And you don't even need it since he's already pretty cool. Whereas with the magic diplo heroes you WILL need a different main for combat, and still nothing guarantees you get one.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted September 27, 2018 06:10 PM
Edited by OhforfSake at 18:10, 27 Sep 2018.

NimoStar said:

14*138 = 1932 army power for diplo (Centaur Captain weekly)
16*66 = 1056 army power for diplo (Master Gremlin weekly)

Centaur wins


Remember to include starting army.

NimoStar said:

Creature speed determines army speed on adventure map,
thus its crucial to have fast creatures for clearing creature stacks.


Only the speed of the hero at the beginning of the round is used, so you can trade the slower creatures to another hero and then move fast with slow creatures the next round.

However I have never been very comfortable with Tower, so I can't really give you any specifics on effective chaining with Tower.

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted September 27, 2018 07:15 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 19:17, 27 Sep 2018.

NimoStar said:
Which doesn't change the fact that ai-value wise they aren't worth more than the equivalent weekly centaurs.

Centaur captain
Growth 14
Ai Value 138

Master Gremlin
Growth 16
Ai Value 66

14*138 = 1932 army power for diplo (Centaur Captain weekly)
16*66 = 1056 army power for diplo (Master Gremlin weekly)

Centaur wins
*FATALITY*

Like Ohforfsake already pointed out you forgot the starting army + tavern heroes army + other creatures to recruit/in starting army. /Palm + Fatality.
NimoStar said:
You fail basic H3.
You fail at basic H3 and insults.
NimoStar said:
Creature speed determines army speed on adventure map, thus its crucial to have fast creatures for clearing creature stacks. Rampart has Centaur and Elf as 2/3 fast of first 3 creatures (also Pegasi are fast)
Tower only has Gargoyles as fast initial creatures, Gremlins and Golems are very slow.
You see there is this thing called "Chaining". It's a very complicated, very technical element in H3. Loosely translated it means "Only high speed creatures in the main's army at the end of the day".
NimoStar said:
That is quite obvious, but the frequency of the spawn of creatures is enough that there are many of them.
The key part of this is that you get a lot of creatures that are the same. So unlike getting just one stack and being stuck with it, you make a stack grow very big. Also after getting the first creature the rest get a huge bonus to join because of same-type.

Yet "many" is not the same as "close by", "easy to access" or "right next Town". Hence it takes quite some time to collect them all with just one Hero. Certainly luck can be on your side and you get 3-5 stacks close by in a row, but it's not something that can be relied on for a tactic.
NimoStar said:
In maps which use "mon1", "mon2", "mon3", all those "mon" of the same level will be of the same type.
Because it is highly likely that a game will last longer than 2M.
NimoStar said:
Because you don't understand even the basics of what I said.
I have a hard time understanding or caring for things that don't make sense, do pardon me.
NimoStar said:
What is more efficient: Transferring army and artifacts between two heroes constantly (which will also hurt your diplomacy efforts), or just doing everything with the same hero?
Your diplo main already "Needs the experience".
This can be translated into: "What is most efficient: Playing with chaining or without chaining?" - My answer is with chaining and it is a no brainer. You won't be accepting every creature stack on the map and hence you can let your main do those battles while your diplo hero takes the creatures you need/want.
NimoStar said:
level 20 probably like +8/+8 to attask/def
Each atk and def level adds like a +5% multiplier to Diplo
So this is basically a +80% to diplo, which due to the exponential natura of diplo it also lets you get even better stacks later and paying nothing.
And at level 20 I sit with a ton of artifacts that grants me such an increase to Attack/Defense that the original hero choice is irrelevant.
You should also check your coordinates scotty because it is not a 5% multiplier.
NimoStar said:
Not to mention that if you get Ryland as starting hero, nothing guarantees you will get a "Better main" in the tavern. (Also as noted Dendroid specialty can be very good compared to other creatuyre specialties). And you don't even need it since he's already pretty cool. Whereas with the magic diplo heroes you WILL need a different main for combat, and still nothing guarantees you get one.
Yet the cases where you only get for example magic heroes are quite rare. Not to mention improved haste is not bad in itself.
Compare that to Ryland and his dendroids which thnx to the Diplomacy skill won't likely be present in the end battle army. How amusing.

I am done debating here.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 29, 2018 06:53 AM

- Still no calculation on your part, Centaurs count for more than gremlins and are faster. Nuff said.

- Yeah you want "chaining" and to use gremlins as army at the same time? lol. Chaining doesnt make your frontline hero faster. Thats why logistics is a most valued skill and logistic specialists are of the few chosen in this very thread.

- "mon" as in "monster", not as in "month" lol. All random monsters of a given level in a map will be the same kind.

- No it can't be ytranslated abotu that with "chaining". Chaining is mainly for bringing creatures from your towns to your main army and back. You can "chain" ryland while still being your main. And the creature stacks to recruit will be at the front, NOT at the back.

- Artifacts dont come for free, specially not skill-enchancing artifacts and you still fail to notice it is skill artifacts PLUS your base stats, not one of the other.

- Who says that diplomacy doesn't let you use your own army?

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted September 29, 2018 07:56 AM

NimoStar said:
- Still no calculation on your part, Centaurs count for more than gremlins and are faster. Nuff said.
Sigh what's there to calculate? Centaurs got a higher AI value than Gremlins but are less numerous. If one gets lucky with the tower you can have almost 4x as many Gremlins as you will have centaurs. Surely you do factor in x amount of Y creature when you calculate the total AI value no?
NimoStar said:
- Yeah you want "chaining" and to use gremlins as army at the same time? lol. Chaining doesnt make your frontline hero faster. Thats why logistics is a most valued skill and logistic specialists are of the few chosen in this very thread.
...
The entire purpose of chaining is to make your "main" heroes FASTER!

Since you obviously do not understand how chaining works let me explain it in layman's terms: At the end of every day your "main" heroes got no slow creatures in their armies, only the quickest creature available to maximise movement speed while the scouts that traded the armies sit with the lowest movement speed.
NimoStar said:
- "mon" as in "monster", not as in "month" lol. All random monsters of a given level in a map will be the same kind.
Would you like me to write M or eg: M2W1D1 instead?
Also yeah all random monsters from a "Month of the X" will be the same  and I have never claimed otherwise. You however seem to have missed all the details surrounding the problem of picking them up.
NimoStar said:
- No it can't be ytranslated abotu that with "chaining". Chaining is mainly for bringing creatures from your towns to your main army and back. You can "chain" ryland while still being your main. And the creature stacks to recruit will be at the front, NOT at the back.
Chaining is primarily done to make your main hero be able to move further every day while also allowing fresh troops to be easier to transport to the front. It also allows scout heroes to collect more resources by splitting the fighting, hence draining the map better.
NimoStar said:
- Artifacts dont come for free, specially not skill-enchancing artifacts and you still fail to notice it is skill artifacts PLUS your base stats, not one of the other.
But that depends on the luck of the map in terms of X artifacts present on the map and Y creatures guarding. So the Artifacts can indeed come for free depending on what creatures guards them and the player's skill.
NimoStar said:
- Who says that diplomacy doesn't let you use your own army?
No one in this thread says so.
All I said is that due to Diplomacy you will likely be finding creatures that are far better than your Dendroids, hence why you replace them and rendering the hero special useless.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 29, 2018 08:29 AM

It's nice with the talking, but remember the voting.

Also maybe you guys could just agree that both Ryland and Cyra are great heroes. Also If Ryland is my main I would always keep Dendriods in my army, just learn Water Magic for Teleport/Prayer or Air Magic for Haste.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Legendary Hero
posted September 29, 2018 08:55 AM

Voted. It'll be interesting to know the winner.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted September 29, 2018 01:13 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 13:15, 29 Sep 2018.

2 heroes + town

Centaurs 5244 - 8556, average 6900

Gremlins 5016 - 6336, average 5676


however i tend to agree with Ebonheart. seems like NimoStar lacks the multiplayer experience

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 29, 2018 01:36 PM

It's interesting how different the votes are, I thought everyone would vote for Gunnar, Crag Hack or Dessa.
Personally I think I would vote for Gunnar, but I will leave the voting up to you guys.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted September 29, 2018 06:52 PM

Gunnar is a pussycat against an Armor specialist. Hack is always decent, however needs a lucky break for him to excell

while an Armorerist starts good, is good, and stays good

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 29, 2018 06:57 PM

Lth3 said:
while an Armorerist starts good, is good, and stays good
If you disregard the Armorer bug...

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Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted September 29, 2018 07:49 PM
Edited by Otuken at 19:50, 29 Sep 2018.

Offense specialists are clearly better than defense specialists regardless of armorer bugs since the best defense is the best attack. There are indeed some cases that defense is as important as offense but generally offense is better than defense.

In HotA Gunnar probably the best hero in the game and closely followed by Crag Hack.

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