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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Best hero in Heroes 3?
Thread: Best hero in Heroes 3? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted September 29, 2018 10:34 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 22:35, 29 Sep 2018.

phoenix4ever said:
Lth3 said:
while an Armorerist starts good, is good, and stays good
If you disregard the Armorer bug...


that's only for town siege, which rarely happens

Otuken said:
Offense specialists are clearly better than defense specialists regardless of armorer bugs since the best defense is the best attack. There are indeed some cases that defense is as important as offense but generally offense is better than defense.

In HotA Gunnar probably the best hero in the game and closely followed by Crag Hack.


nope. Tazar eats Hack any day of the week


... like a Ghost Dragon tickles an Arch Devil before being thrown in the piledriver

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 29, 2018 10:59 PM

Well Tazar is an awesome hero, can't argue with that and so is Mr. Hack.

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Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted September 29, 2018 11:54 PM

Lth3 said:
phoenix4ever said:
Lth3 said:
while an Armorerist starts good, is good, and stays good
If you disregard the Armorer bug...


that's only for town siege, which rarely happens

Otuken said:
Offense specialists are clearly better than defense specialists regardless of armorer bugs since the best defense is the best attack. There are indeed some cases that defense is as important as offense but generally offense is better than defense.

In HotA Gunnar probably the best hero in the game and closely followed by Crag Hack.


nope. Tazar eats Hack any day of the week


... like a Ghost Dragon tickles an Arch Devil before being thrown in the piledriver


Why Tazar is better than Crag Hack?

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted September 30, 2018 09:56 AM

mainly 3 reasons:

1. Armor works for both melee and ranged, while Offense works only in melee

2. one unit can get attacked multiple times in a round, while itself it can attack only once ( or twice with morale )

3. Armor works better against strong neutrals where getting hit is inevitable, e.g. taking Hives, Conservatories, Utopias or strong shooter stacks

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Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted September 30, 2018 03:11 PM

They are really valid reasons. There is somethings that make me doubtful.

1) This game mostly rely on melee combats.

2) Expert armorer provides %15 bonus while expert offensive %30

3) Armorer specialists are weaker than offense specialists against strong spellcasters.

4) Barbarians have better chance to get more total attack/defense than beastmasters.

5) Barbarians have better chance to get tactic, resistance and air magic.

6) Expert haste provides first strike in creature banks maybe except dragon utopias. I agree that armorer specialists really shine in dragon utopias.

I still think that Hack is slighly better than Tazar but I might be wrong.

But Logistics specialists are really top. They level up faster, they explore maps rapidly, they get more attack/defense, they are better at surprize attacks, they collect more artifact, they can run away from strong heroes etc...

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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
Legit Karate champ. Totally.
posted September 30, 2018 03:54 PM

Also, given an ideal scenario (basically maxed-out hero specialty bonus) Tazar beats Hack every time
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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted October 01, 2018 12:03 AM
Edited by Lth3 at 00:05, 01 Oct 2018.

Otuken said:
2) Expert armorer provides %15 bonus while expert offensive %30


that only looks good on paper. in reality Offense is calculated from base damage only, while Armorer from total damage, so they both cancel out each other in the end

Otuken said:
I still think that Hack is slighly better than Tazar but I might be wrong.


it's good that you acknowledge your shortcoming

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 01, 2018 05:46 AM

There are already full posts with tens of comments aboiut which is better if tazar or hack:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=7398

And offense and armorer:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=45282
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=44358

I know repetition is the nature of discussing a 20 yerar old game but at least we should try to keep it ordered. Very valuable info there and higher level discussion ;=)
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Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted October 01, 2018 02:14 PM

Lth3 said:
Otuken said:
2) Expert armorer provides %15 bonus while expert offensive %30


that only looks good on paper. in reality Offense is calculated from base damage only, while Armorer from total damage, so they both cancel out each other in the end

Otuken said:
I still think that Hack is slighly better than Tazar but I might be wrong.


it's good that you acknowledge your shortcoming


I have convinced that after this pathetic answer. Even any barbarian is clearly better than armorer specialists let alone Hack.

Anybody who think Tazar is better than Hack really cannot prove it that. They just like play defensively and they want to believe Tazar is better than Hack but their preferences have no affect to game mechanics. I would accept Tazar is as good as Hack (or better) only if creatures would be able to retaliate at the same time when they get attacked.

But hitting hard is already prove you the best defense in the game. When you hit hard, enemy creatures would never be able to hit you hard.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted October 01, 2018 02:23 PM

I think Otuken is interested in reviving threads out of boredom. Cause I refuse to think that people are so blind to logic and proof, and I also refuse to call him idiot like he called me some weeks ago

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted October 01, 2018 07:27 PM


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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted October 02, 2018 10:55 PM

Crack is faster, kills faster, develops faster...and kills Taz before he is well developped....that easy
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 03, 2018 09:45 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 09:50, 03 Oct 2018.

Otuken said:
Anybody who think Tazar is better than Hack really cannot prove it that.


There is nothing to prove. Those heroes are mathematically equal.

ATT/DEF cancel each other out. Armorer and Offense also cancel each other out.

A hero with 20 ATT fighting a hero with 10 ATT/10 DEF is effectively two heroes with 10 ATT fighting each other = equal.

Here's a very simple proof for you:

20 ATT vs. 0 DEF = +100% damage = enemy gets effectively 50% less HP
20 DEF vs. 0 ATT = -50% damage = enemy gets effectively 100% more HP.

thus

20 ATT vs. 0 DEF = x2 damage
0 ATT vs 20 DEF = 1/2 damage


Offense and armorer are mathematically equal as well and also cancel out each other.

Tazar's bonus cancels out Hack's bonus when they are of equal level.

Given the same army and similar stat distribution, Tazar = Hack.
What matters is who strikes first. That will be your winner.

That's why people are so obsessed with Mass Haste when playing Homm3. If your armies are roughly equal and you strike first, you will win (*).

(*) The above doesn't take creature specials into consideration. In HotA, for example, arch devils against 0 luck enemy is roughly a -16.7% global debuff to enemy damage, and most likely more given how negative luck (added in HOTA) most likely ignores ATT/DEF just like positive luck does.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 03, 2018 10:25 AM

Doomforge said:

There is nothing to prove. Those heroes are mathematically equal.



This is exact but it has not big incidence on the battle. Because what such analysis skips is all the way until that battle - and that means 99% of the game, right? Crag develops faster because he hits harder, he will be stronger, have more resources, more banks and bigger army in the end. That's not to say Tazar is BS, bit I would pick Crag over him any day.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 03, 2018 11:37 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 11:47, 03 Oct 2018.

That is correct. The current "meta" is all about creature banks, so Crag Hack being able to clear them faster does have a big advantage. I believe he also - as a Barb - get better chances for crucial secondaries on level ups than Beastmasters.

However, since game mechanics were mentioned - they are equal in terms of those.

I do believe that Tyrexor is prefered in Hota multiplayer over Hack though due to an adventure object HotA added. I'm not big on competitive multiplayer, so take it with a grain of salt. Every comp game I know evolves into a cookie cutter meta, which bores me to tears. In case of Heroes, it mostly means playing the same template over and over (Jeebus), getting mass haste and hunting for banks, aiming for a w2 break.

For less competitive approach, my favorite hero has to be Gunnar, due to both amazing chance to get crucial secondaries (Overlord) and unparalleled mobility.
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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted October 03, 2018 12:24 PM

Has this not been debated enough over the years?
Crag Hack is better for multiplayer because he will as previously stated clear the map much faster and efficiently than Tazar.
Tazar will only be better than Crag Hack past a certain level where Armorer starts to outperform Offense until all damage is reduced so much it is not even worth fighting without the aid of magic.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Legendary Hero
Quién Sabe?
posted October 03, 2018 12:39 PM

Soooooooo, at the moment Tazar has 3 votes, the only one... and there's also the "Other ( write in comments)" option with 3.

Intriguing.

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Revolut1oN
Revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted October 03, 2018 03:57 PM

Sorry but obviously Tazar tops Hack in just about everything. People who say Tazar is worse are clearly either newbies or old pros who live in the world of early 2000s multiplayer. Since then the level of multi gameplay basically sky rocketed, meta changed and every current pro will tell you that Tazar is better.

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Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted October 03, 2018 05:46 PM

Ebonheart said:
Has this not been debated enough over the years?
Crag Hack is better for multiplayer because he will as previously stated clear the map much faster and efficiently than Tazar.
Tazar will only be better than Crag Hack past a certain level where Armorer starts to outperform Offense until all damage is reduced so much it is not even worth fighting without the aid of magic.

After which level Tazar becomes better than Crag Hack?

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted October 03, 2018 07:20 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 19:24, 03 Oct 2018.

Revolut1oN said:
Sorry but obviously Tazar tops Hack in just about everything. People who say Tazar is worse are clearly either newbies or old pros who live in the world of early 2000s multiplayer. Since then the level of multi gameplay basically sky rocketed, meta changed and every current pro will tell you that Tazar is better.
If you are talking about Hota then I suppose I can neither argue against or for since I do not play it.

In the classic HoMM 3 however Mr. Hack outshines Tazar in multiplayer games since he will drain the map much quicker and with less losses. That is the plain and simple reason for why he is better. That is not to say that Tazar is bad or can't clear a map efficiently, it's just that Crag does that far better, and that is usually a strong reason for scoring a victory.
It should be added though that both Crag Hack and Tazar can function better/worse depending on the town.
Otuken said:
After which level Tazar becomes better than Crag Hack?
At around level 25-30 I would say that Tazar starts to surpass Hack in terms of an endgame battle.

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