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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Why HOTA competitive scene is widely different than what the usual HOMM3 player plays
Thread: Why HOTA competitive scene is widely different than what the usual HOMM3 player plays This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted April 06, 2019 04:44 PM
Edited by Pollo2002 at 16:53, 06 Apr 2019.

Why HOTA competitive scene is widely different than what the usual HOMM3 player plays

Lth3 said:


how would you accomplish this? only way i see is to ban Fly/DD and put hordes of strong lvl 7 creatures between zones of each player

otherwise it's just pretending. if you can get a win in 1 month why waste 7?


Templates and rules played online push the game to be certain ways, and no that is not the solution.
I want to talk a little about this

First lets talk about online templates and the current competitive meta of Heroes 3.
here are a few qualities of online templates that make games to be super fast, very solitarie, and very straigthforward.

1. Templates are very lineal.

Basically everything relevant in the game can be traced from player A to player B.
That means there aren't really any tactical option than go forward as fast possible, which means the game come down to who farms faster and nothing else.

1.b

not only there is a linearity in the connection between players, but between players there tends to be an INSANE amount of treasure that overrides any decision point other than farming.
Basically there is so much treasure BETWEEN players, that whoever breaks into treasure zone first, wins, because everythign else becomes irrelevant. Again there isn't any alternate strategy. THere isn't an option to go for the treasure or not, the maps leave no other space than break into treasure ASAP, because no strategy can beat breaking into that treasure zone.
But as soon as a player gets there, his main hero becomes SO powerfull that he basically won and the game is over.

2. Roads
One of the main problems I had when RMG showed up back there is that you couldn't delete roads, and the type of roads had a very impactfull effect on how a game develops.

I cant' deny that RMG were great for the game, and I would blame roads to effects of the meta after RMG appear. But the truth is that many of the problems mentioned in the past existed before RMG, the community already started to build maps with all these "qualities".
Sadly roads in RMG made things worse. I was positevely excited when HOTA managed to customize roads. Only to find out the community instead of removing them or choose to go dirt only, went to the fast and super fast roads.

Roads, add to the problem of point 1. Basically dictate how you should play, getting significantly away from the road is pretty much suicide, because it means halving your speed of action which as we know is the most important resource in heroes.

Roads now so core to HOMM competitive play were a rarity before RMG, and that was a good thing imo.

3. Lack of castles.
This again is pre RMG, but many of the original templates, as faulty as they were didnt have this problem.
However current templates do. Heroes originally was a game about castles, and many features indicate that is so, as well as all the original maps and many of the original templates. And for many people the game is stilla about that, I would argue for most people.
But the heroes competitive community basically ignores this aspect.
Most templates, have the starting Castle, and then ...maybe one extra town, and then one another town in the middle.

No, towns are not even the same as castles, because, Forts are prohibitively expensive, but starting castles in the map add options to the player.
Options that make the game longer, that is because by having lots of castles in the map, give players another option, something to aim for, having 2 or 3 or even more functional castles.
Castles prolong the game for many reasons.
-Add a "lategame" option for players to aim and purposelly delay the game if they are losing.
-Give different restock points
-Allow players to fight a Guerrilla war.

Now I imagine what some competitive people are thinking "No matter how man castles you have, if i walk in with my 30/20/15/15 Expert logicistic, expert, expert, expert hero with 7 Angels from gryphon conservatories i will eventually win.

Yes, this is true, which is again why Extremly heavy treasure zones are part of this tendency. YEs, no amount of castles, and guerrilla tactics, will beat a hero that got 5 utopias worth of artifacts. But the problem there is that treasure zones with 5 utopias worth of artifacts exist, and more important is that these zones are BETWEEN players.

4. How rich maps are.
Yes There are exceptions, but most played map JC and even most of the popular ones, are so rich.... That a pack of level 7 creatures seems irrelevant naturally. This speed the game ridicuosly, whats the point of starting at 200% or 160% if you have 3 times the resources for free around your initial castle that you start with in 80%?
And again this also comes with linearity, given there is only one relevant castle and one linear path between A and B there is only one way to invest those resources, farming more resources, to get the army to get through the guards and get the utopias. There isn't any strategy involved in this, Heroes 3 at competitive level is pure an "builder efficiency" game. It's still fun thing to do, but to me is too far away to the original intent of the game and what most people experience when they play heroes 3.
But getting in topic, its what makes the games "so fast.

Conclusion:
Games online are so fast because RMG templates played there incentivize a style of play that is A) Far from what most people experience in HOMM before going online B), Extremly straightforward C) Extremly fast D) More  about economy efficiency than military strategy or tactics.

Trying to imply that is the only possible way to play heroes even when playign competitively, is not true, is just what the dominant part of the community of heroes leaned to over the years, for whatever sociological reason happend to be.

On an even more personal note, It's still fun to ocassionally jump online and play a few games of this "straightforward" farming game, but to me it gets boring super fast, I still play the game offline more often, in extremly different maps and templates, and lately not even on teh same rules as ive been playing WOG. But even before wog, I played maps and templates that incentivize a drastically different type of game, which is imo FAR more remniscient of the experience most people have with HOMM before joining online.

The only reason I don't play more often that is that is hard to coordinate with friends in adulthood 6 hours to play a game of heroes. The good thing about hota is if i have a few hours available i can join, play and get out.

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Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 06, 2019 04:52 PM
Edited by avatar at 16:55, 06 Apr 2019.

Conclusion - what are you proposing?
People loves fast multiplayer games, because they don't last forever...
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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted April 06, 2019 04:57 PM

avatar said:
Conclusion - what are you proposing?
People loves fast multiplayer games, because they don't take forever...


I don't know if I'm proposing anything for now, I was mostly replying to someone that claimed that HEROES played at competitive level natural develops into this super fast game, and there are no alternatives. I disagree.

It's ok if the online community decided this is what they want, and as you claimed, maybe there is a great reason, people have 2 hours of free time, maybe 3 , and life requires something quick. for that.

Maybe there is the only way a community of online players can sustain a game, by shortening the games as fast as possible.

I just wanted to "publicaly" answer this comment of this person, because i think it's an interesting topic, but i didn't want to do on the thread because it was so offtopic of what the thread is about.
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Macron1
Macron1


Supreme Hero
posted April 06, 2019 06:29 PM

avatar said:
Conclusion - what are you proposing?
People loves fast multiplayer games, because they don't last forever...


Fast games kill the atmospear and ignore the mechanics of the world. It's boring. Those who love that are not the fans of the game.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted April 06, 2019 07:34 PM

Pollo2002 said:



Basically there is so much treasure BETWEEN players, that whoever breaks into treasure zone first, wins, because everything else becomes irrelevant.

...


3. Lack of castles.
... Heroes originally was a game about castles, and many features indicate that is so, as well as all the original maps and many of the original templates.
...
But the heroes competitive community basically ignores this aspect.
Most templates, have the starting Castle, and then ...maybe one extra town, and then one another town in the middle.

No, towns are not even the same as castles, because, Forts are prohibitively expensive, but starting castles in the map add options to the player.
...

Now I imagine what some competitive people are thinking "No matter how man castles you have, if i walk in with my 30/20/15/15 Expert logicistic, expert, expert, expert hero with 7 Angels from gryphon conservatories i will eventually win.
...
But the problem there is that treasure zones with 5 utopias worth of artifacts exist, and more important is that these zones are BETWEEN players.

4. How rich maps are.
... whats the point of starting at 200% or 160% if you have 3 times the resources for free around your initial castle that you start with in 80%?
And again this also comes with linearity, given there is only one relevant castle and one linear path between A and B there is only one way to invest those resources, farming more resources, to get the army to get through the guards and get the utopias.
Conclusion:
Games online are so fast because RMG templates played there incentivize a style of play that is A) Far from what most people experience in HOMM before going online B), Extremely straightforward C) Extremely fast D) More  about economy efficiency than military strategy or tactics.

Trying to imply that is the only possible way to play heroes even when playign competitively, is not true, is just what the dominant part of the community of heroes leaned to over the years, for whatever sociological reason happened to be.




I agree with these remarks and add that the worst part is how people that don't play sh*t draw the wrong conclusions and comment how you never build for money, never develop second towns or how magic heroes suck, etc... without ever putting some thought on how much of what they observe is just the result of the templates they play and that Heroes III meta game is not so deterministic as those same templates have made it.
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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted April 06, 2019 09:08 PM

Pollo2002 said:
Lth3 said:


how would you accomplish this? only way i see is to ban Fly/DD and put hordes of strong lvl 7 creatures between zones of each player

otherwise it's just pretending. if you can get a win in 1 month why waste 7?


Templates and rules played online push the game to be certain ways, and no that is not the solution.
I want to talk a little about this

First lets talk about online templates and the current competitive meta of Heroes 3.
here are a few qualities of online templates that make games to be super fast, very solitarie, and very straigthforward.

1. Templates are very lineal.

Basically everything relevant in the game can be traced from player A to player B.
That means there aren't really any tactical option than go forward as fast possible, which means the game come down to who farms faster and nothing else.

1.b

not only there is a linearity in the connection between players, but between players there tends to be an INSANE amount of treasure that overrides any decision point other than farming.
Basically there is so much treasure BETWEEN players, that whoever breaks into treasure zone first, wins, because everythign else becomes irrelevant. Again there isn't any alternate strategy. THere isn't an option to go for the treasure or not, the maps leave no other space than break into treasure ASAP, because no strategy can beat breaking into that treasure zone.
But as soon as a player gets there, his main hero becomes SO powerfull that he basically won and the game is over.

2. Roads
One of the main problems I had when RMG showed up back there is that you couldn't delete roads, and the type of roads had a very impactfull effect on how a game develops.

I cant' deny that RMG were great for the game, and I would blame roads to effects of the meta after RMG appear. But the truth is that many of the problems mentioned in the past existed before RMG, the community already started to build maps with all these "qualities".
Sadly roads in RMG made things worse. I was positevely excited when HOTA managed to customize roads. Only to find out the community instead of removing them or choose to go dirt only, went to the fast and super fast roads.

Roads, add to the problem of point 1. Basically dictate how you should play, getting significantly away from the road is pretty much suicide, because it means halving your speed of action which as we know is the most important resource in heroes.

Roads now so core to HOMM competitive play were a rarity before RMG, and that was a good thing imo.

3. Lack of castles.
This again is pre RMG, but many of the original templates, as faulty as they were didnt have this problem.
However current templates do. Heroes originally was a game about castles, and many features indicate that is so, as well as all the original maps and many of the original templates. And for many people the game is stilla about that, I would argue for most people.
But the heroes competitive community basically ignores this aspect.
Most templates, have the starting Castle, and then ...maybe one extra town, and then one another town in the middle.

No, towns are not even the same as castles, because, Forts are prohibitively expensive, but starting castles in the map add options to the player.
Options that make the game longer, that is because by having lots of castles in the map, give players another option, something to aim for, having 2 or 3 or even more functional castles.
Castles prolong the game for many reasons.
-Add a "lategame" option for players to aim and purposelly delay the game if they are losing.
-Give different restock points
-Allow players to fight a Guerrilla war.

Now I imagine what some competitive people are thinking "No matter how man castles you have, if i walk in with my 30/20/15/15 Expert logicistic, expert, expert, expert hero with 7 Angels from gryphon conservatories i will eventually win.

Yes, this is true, which is again why Extremly heavy treasure zones are part of this tendency. YEs, no amount of castles, and guerrilla tactics, will beat a hero that got 5 utopias worth of artifacts. But the problem there is that treasure zones with 5 utopias worth of artifacts exist, and more important is that these zones are BETWEEN players.

4. How rich maps are.
Yes There are exceptions, but most played map JC and even most of the popular ones, are so rich.... That a pack of level 7 creatures seems irrelevant naturally. This speed the game ridicuosly, whats the point of starting at 200% or 160% if you have 3 times the resources for free around your initial castle that you start with in 80%?
And again this also comes with linearity, given there is only one relevant castle and one linear path between A and B there is only one way to invest those resources, farming more resources, to get the army to get through the guards and get the utopias. There isn't any strategy involved in this, Heroes 3 at competitive level is pure an "builder efficiency" game. It's still fun thing to do, but to me is too far away to the original intent of the game and what most people experience when they play heroes 3.
But getting in topic, its what makes the games "so fast.

Conclusion:
Games online are so fast because RMG templates played there incentivize a style of play that is A) Far from what most people experience in HOMM before going online B), Extremly straightforward C) Extremly fast D) More  about economy efficiency than military strategy or tactics.

Trying to imply that is the only possible way to play heroes even when playign competitively, is not true, is just what the dominant part of the community of heroes leaned to over the years, for whatever sociological reason happend to be.

On an even more personal note, It's still fun to ocassionally jump online and play a few games of this "straightforward" farming game, but to me it gets boring super fast, I still play the game offline more often, in extremly different maps and templates, and lately not even on teh same rules as ive been playing WOG. But even before wog, I played maps and templates that incentivize a drastically different type of game, which is imo FAR more remniscient of the experience most people have with HOMM before joining online.

The only reason I don't play more often that is that is hard to coordinate with friends in adulthood 6 hours to play a game of heroes. The good thing about hota is if i have a few hours available i can join, play and get out.



so how will you make me play a game for 7 months when i can do it in a month?

you have quoted me for your opinionated wall of text, but haven't provided an answer

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revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted April 06, 2019 09:49 PM

Looks like the only template OP knows is Jebus Cross.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted April 06, 2019 09:57 PM

revolut1oN said:
Looks like the only template OP knows is Jebus Cross.


haha. good one

wanted to point out the fact, however decided this would disengage OP's creative spark prematurely. and that doesn't do any good. after all he is trying to create some unique templates as far as i can tell

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dydzio
dydzio


Adventuring Hero
posted April 07, 2019 08:36 AM
Edited by dydzio at 10:30, 07 Apr 2019.

Well, I also dislike how mainstream MP is played, but...

Mainstream templates being "linear" make sense for "balanced game" - they sacrifice diversity for more equal chances for both players.

Economy aspect is flattened and I agree that it becomes contest  of "who farms better", which includes "who baits battle AI better".

I like maps that rely on town development, resource planning and managing your surroundings well - visit dwellings on map for extra troops, windmills for resources etc.

MP players just care about what is most balanced.

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Djangoo
Djangoo


Adventuring Hero
posted April 07, 2019 11:59 AM

revolut1oN said:
Looks like the only template OP knows is Jebus Cross.


can you recommend any streamers that play other templates?

whenever I try to watch some  HIII on Twitch its 100% Jebus Cross

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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted April 07, 2019 12:59 PM

revolut1oN said:
Looks like the only template OP knows is Jebus Cross.

No, i know every template and checked every one on the template editor and played most of them, except the mirror ones and maybe one or two.

In fact when i go online I rarely play Jebus cross.

Jebus cross is just the maximum expression of these points, but most templates cover all the points in one way or another.

Maybe one template has, some "alternative path" (In fact the other day i played a template i saw some peopel playing called arthas, and had a few other paths).
But they pretty much cover all the mentioned points.

In fact one of my favorite templates was Balance, which is not played in hota anymore? why is that?.

I think the best templates are No surprise, the ones that are based on the original template pack (2SM2C, etc).

But again part of the problem is also the settings choosen online.

Quote:
so how will you make me play a game for 7 months when i can do it in a month?

I will not make you do anything, I have no idea what you are talking about, I believe in freedom of choice.


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avatar
avatar


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 07, 2019 01:07 PM
Edited by avatar at 13:15, 07 Apr 2019.

Pollo2002 said:

In fact one of my favorite templates was Balance, which is not played in hota anymore? why is that?.



Because people are too lazy to move this template from _HD3_Data/Templates folder to HotA_RMGTemplates directory.
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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted April 07, 2019 06:58 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 19:02, 07 Apr 2019.

Pollo2002 said:
Lth3 said:
so how will you make me play a game for 7 months when i can do it in a month?

I will not make you do anything, I have no idea what you are talking about, I believe in freedom of choice.




yeah but if you don't put hordes of strong lvl 7 and disable Fly/DD you will not prevent me making the game not last longer than a month or so, doesn't matter if it's rich or not

maybe if you disable all roads - then the game could go on for 2 months with DD/Fly. and maybe 3 months tops without DD/Fly

another way is ofcourse making sizes bigger than XL+U. but that's out of the ordinary

any ways, you are avoiding my question directly, which was quoted for Tepani in another thread. if you think it does not relate to your topic and what you wanted to say, i will just leave you be then

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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted April 07, 2019 07:48 PM

Its ok to disable DD and Fly but i super disagree you need big guards separating players.
With that said im talking about a 2 month game, not 7.
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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted April 07, 2019 09:21 PM

you're talking about things that don't exist, as far as i'm concerned

or is it early hype before you release some of your distinctive templates?

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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted April 07, 2019 10:54 PM

I could release my templates, but you don't need to play my templates really most of the old maps and old templates play very different already.

I plan maybe release my personal templates once hota make rework the magic system.


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Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 07, 2019 11:29 PM

So you've made templates designed for non-existing magic rework system?
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted April 07, 2019 11:38 PM

Reworked magic system, does anyone have any idea what that entails and if it's for next update??

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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted April 07, 2019 11:56 PM

No, ive made templates, for current system, the problem is i would like to test them some more when release, since they are widely different than what current competitive community plays i have a ONE SHOT to make it right.

The problem is that right now I'm not hooked up at heroes 3 enough to test them properly. I'm pretty sure when the magic rework system comes into place, i will be super hooked for a while and thus test them properly.
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted April 08, 2019 01:43 AM
Edited by dj at 02:00, 08 Apr 2019.

Im guessing you want to say that the games rely too much on map resources and less on the faction u re playing, like it doesnt even matter what faction u choose, if you are lucky enough to have an area with less stress factors ( swamp terrain, slow roads or none etc.) you have a huge advantage and you re likely to win the game.

Which is why game mechanics have to be rethought entirely. If a discussion is permitted, i would like to talk about individual resources produced by your own faction. Like make the resource silo produce  a specific resource for that faction, this way it would be more fair between the players. You can accumulate as much 'common' resources as possible, but you cannot have an advantage and spend them because your 'special' resource is being produced as 1/day, thus more slowly.

Yes, i am aware that there is already a differentiation between resources: gold // wood, ore // gem, sulfur, mercury, crystal but they are available to all factions anyway.

Give Tower starsteel (from homm 7, a mere term) to be produced by its resource silo, let's say, and you have to build it asap. You may reach to the treasured area from RMG map and you can have as many common resources as u may find but cannot build anything because the production of the starsteel is made only by your faction and not outside as 1/day or week (depending on how much starsteel is needed to construct a building).

The 'meta' would be slowed down because of the waiting for the production of this special unique resource. Gives the player enough time to gather resources and has a chance to stand against the player who reached the treasure zone (maybe respawnable resources on map, revisitable treasuries each month and available 1 fight for each player?)

I think it is more fair this way and I dont see how to change the 'homm 3 meta' without doing some gameplay tweaks.

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