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| Thread: Why HOTA competitive scene is widely different than what the usual HOMM3 player plays |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Tapani
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 08, 2019 07:37 AM |
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Lth3 said:
yeah but if you don't put hordes of strong lvl 7 and disable Fly/DD you will not prevent me making the game not last longer than a month or so, doesn't matter if it's rich or not
maybe if you disable all roads - then the game could go on for 2 months with DD/Fly. and maybe 3 months tops without DD/Fly
another way is ofcourse making sizes bigger than XL+U. but that's out of the ordinary
any ways, you are avoiding my question directly, which was quoted for Tepani in another thread. if you think it does not relate to your topic and what you wanted to say, i will just leave you be then
Yes we banned fly/dd. That was the choice we made, to enable long games with diplomacy enabled. Different solution than the competitive environment did, who chose to disabled diplomacy but allow dd (and fly?).
And we have no hordes of level 7 as guards. Think bigger and hairier than that. :-)
(In our templates the largest stacks are somewhere north of 500k, usually a throng or swarm of crystals/rusts/azures).
Diplomacy or necromancy are not options, but necessities. Otherwise the guardian stacks will outgrow whatever dwell is generated in a few cities.
We also disabled cartographers, view air and view earth - since we thought they spoiled the joy of exploration.
Already without nerfed necro, it is slightly more difficult to be necro in that kind of environment. In case you do not find the cloak of the undead king (or perhaps the grail early on), you had to try to barge through as quickly as you can. The end game is won by diplomacy.
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Lth3
Known Hero
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posted April 08, 2019 08:16 AM |
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Edited by Lth3 at 10:13, 08 Apr 2019.
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well that is an interesting "meta", which i would enjoy playing myself from time to time. but i do not see how this "meta" is better than the competetive multiplayer "meta"
any template can be designed to the likes and wants of different people, whether rich/poor with treasure/no treasure or anything else in mind. a skilled player will play any kind of map and eventually find ways to abuse it if there are gaps in it, hence the need for slight game balance changes and some rules ( like Red Rush and Hit & Run ) to avoid abuse
problem is people want something, but they don't invest time to find or create their own templates/ruleset and then offer it to the community
if them game-changers are denouncing our metas because they can't handle it, why should we suddenly start to respect theirs and put it above ours? come to online lobby, propose your maps, and let's see if it works in practice and not only in theory
Tapani said:
Diplomacy or necromancy are not options, but necessities. Otherwise the guardian stacks will outgrow whatever dwell is generated in a few cities.
okay, that's interesting. let's say i want to play Dungeon. Dungeon heroes can't learn Diplomacy. how am i going to play your template, which is limited to 3 factions with 1 heroe each + Necros ? isn't it the reason why it works only in theory? and we may probably find more such reasons on the way, where you are limited to certain choices, certain circumstances or certain ways to go about the game
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 08, 2019 10:37 AM |
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dj said:
Like make the resource silo produce a specific resource for that faction, this way it would be more fair between the players. You can accumulate as much 'common' resources as possible, but you cannot have an advantage and spend them because your 'special' resource is being produced as 1/day, thus more slowly.
Eh, no. Having Towns produce these special resources depending on Town type makes players too dependent on actually having these Towns. This means that players with identical Towns in their vicinity will have an even greater advantage than players with different Towns, aside from already being able to better add up the armies produced in those Towns.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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Tapani
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 08, 2019 05:29 PM |
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Edited by Tapani at 17:30, 08 Apr 2019.
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Lth3 said:
Tapani said:
Diplomacy or necromancy are not options, but necessities. Otherwise the guardian stacks will outgrow whatever dwell is generated in a few cities.
okay, that's interesting. let's say i want to play Dungeon. Dungeon heroes can't learn Diplomacy. how am i going to play your template, which is limited to 3 factions with 1 heroe each + Necros ? isn't it the reason why it works only in theory? and we may probably find more such reasons on the way, where you are limited to certain choices, certain circumstances or certain ways to go about the game
First you are right that Dungeon probably suffers the most on the template I sent you. Not because lack of diplomacy though, but because many buildings needs all noble resources.
There are alternative to answers to that:
1. The template I sent you will give many universities and even more witch huts on each side. Most of them in the first 6-7 (of 50) areas you enter. The chance that you find diplomacy is pretty high (but not 100%).
Then there are good chances that you find a hero of a different faction that has, or gets diplomacy quickly (there are enough learning stones to level up every gold producing hero a few levels).
Your diplomacy hero is not going to be your main hero groomed to take the final battle.
2. If I want to be able to make some choice that clearly is bad, how can you ever balance that?
(Like play a navigation specialty hero on a land map). There are always good and bad choices.
The template I sent you is more strategic than you realize. I don't know what you mean by "skill" but there is skill in that map too.
Resource management. You are really short on everything, so you need to think hard what is really worth those precious nuggets of gold.
Starting with a money hero is not a crazy idea. Your start gets accelerated quite a bit (you get town hall and a 2nd hero first week!). Like in all 4x games, even a small acceleration in the start will influence the whole remainder of the game!
Also, playing with diplomacy you have to balance other things:
1. Most joiners require intimidation, you need to buy dwell to intimidate.
2. Most joiners cost money. But you spent the money on dwell.
3. Time. You waited too long, so the stacks grew and are no longer afraid of you. You have fight.
It is a different game than playing a ten day rush. Many important decisions are about money.
Not saying there is no randomness, but there are more strategic decisions than one might first realize.
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Lth3
Known Hero
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posted April 08, 2019 06:22 PM |
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Edited by Lth3 at 18:57, 08 Apr 2019.
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shouldn't you release your template to the public, if you decided to go public on the matter
Lth3 said:
what i can say is this is exactly what i had in mind. hordes of strong lvl 7 seperating you from opponent. the incentive to go forward early is not enough, for the reward is too low. also there is no point for all the lvl 8 dwellings later on if you are playing with Diplomacy. Diplomacy ruins the game again. unless both players start with Diplomacy, game is not fair as usual. but even if both play Diplomacy, still it's gonna be based on luck, whether the main stacks of guards between zones gonna join you or your opp. but then if you disable Diplomacy, magic heroes become too strong as within each new zone there is a town in which to recover mana. might heroes are only viable with Diplomacy on
this template is very rigid, fast-paced, and straightforward, as there is not much to do each turn or plan or strive for. you don't do much in the beginning. it doesn't require any decent amount of skill from the player, because you just pass turns staying in town, until you can break through the guards to zones where you can actually find something of value
another note to make is that this template is impossible without Earth and Slow, so naturally some towns and heroes who have a better chance to get Earth magic will be great - while some will be just utter crap. also towns like Stronghold/Fortresss who require a decent amount of wood/ore to build their main buildings is utter crap here, since there is no wood/ore mine and they also do not have any decent mages as well. but this is all irrelevant since only Castle, Rampart, and Tower have Diplomacy heroes. so this template is only for those 3 towns, unless you also ban Diplomacy
i'm not gonna discuss the Diplo aspect here as it's game breaking in any way you look at it. nobody's gonna risk the chance of not getting Diplomacy when you can freely choose it
Diplomacy may work when map doesn't have strong guards, but not when there are hordes of lvl 7 monsters waiting to join you - it's like a joke
just one lucky joiner and everything you have worked up until that moment will not matter anymore
besides the obvious, i would say that Tapani's template definitely has an interesting concept. it's like a 200% on steroids, since you start with fort also, and there is not a single mine in starting zone, so you are gonna be forced to stick with basic army for a while. feels like playing a campaign but with random elements to it, and a bit more challenging. i'd go for selectable town, but random hero as an additional rule - and it should be quite fun in an unordinary kind of way. without Diplomacy ofcourse 
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revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted April 08, 2019 06:28 PM |
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Well, I can't see the point of the OP. Few castles and insignificant castle army is problem ONLY on Jebus. On templates like Diamond, 2sm4d, h3dm1 and even nostalgia most zones are usually relatively poor, forcing you to use castle army and delay taking any banks (if you are lucky to find any).
Games often go 8+ hours on maps like this, I don't know where did you take 2 hours from. Again, its ONLY for Jebus games.
Late game on such templates is far from one big battle in treasure zone, its scout war using control heroes and smart traps. Very interesting.
I don't really see any point. Maybe you mean its bad as there is no direct link inbetween players zones? Well, you can always play Balance or something like that. That is - if you find players for that. Meeting your opponent day 4 and getting ravaged by Ciele's Magic Arrow or some Lightning while you are forced to helplessly watch is for sure not the way of playing many people enjoy.
Skilled players tend to play fast, because thats the whole point of playing high level heroes. You do stuff much faster than average player, clear more, accumulate more army; means u good at this game.
If you want to force slow game then just make rule that you can only use 1 hero, no chaining and other rules as you see fit.
The question is; who is the one no longer playing real Heroes then? Online players who maximize their efficiency and skill to use every aspect of the game to play better or people who force artificial rules to prolong game and make it more noob-friendly?
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Pollo2002
Famous Hero
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posted April 08, 2019 06:45 PM |
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Quote:
Skilled players tend to play fast, because thats the whole point of playing high level heroes.
My point is that players do not "play fast".
mroe templates are extremly rich and thus things escalate at ridiculus speeds.
In that sense HOTA did a step backwards. Even on original templates one of the problems was conservatories and dragon hives would accelerate the game an insane ammount, by giving several wyverns or angels week 1 without money.
Hota even added more of those banks, making things worse.
I just played a game where I did get 3 giants day 2 in those golems factories.
I don't think that is how heroes was supposed to be played originally or what most people experience. outside of competitive play.
I also disagree those templates are much different that what i say, even 2SM4d, by far the farthest from that of those 3 templates, doesn't play that much different. But no surprise 2SM4d is one of the original templates.
funny enough at the beginning of RMG a lot of people banned conservatories and dragon hives, and kept the meta healthy for a while, but then that went away, and now hota introduced a lot of those banks.
Long story short, creature banks accelerate the game too quick, by providing an insane amount of resources.
Most games are about scouting the area, scout creature banks and use them to rocket your start to insane amounts.
This is not "players playing fast" this is maps being ridiculous rich.
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Lth3
Known Hero
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posted April 08, 2019 07:11 PM |
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Pollo2002 said:
Hota even added more of those banks, making things worse.
actually, it's harder to accumulate a strong stack this way. from 2 to 5 elements you have less chances to find the same banks
Pollo2002 said:
I just played a game where I did get 3 giants day 2 in those golems factories.
I don't think that is how heroes was supposed to be played originally or what most people experience. outside of competitive play.
how about you getting an Archangel from a Mercenary Camp on day 1? i don't think much hesitation would come from you in that moment, except for a big grin on your face 
Pollo2002 said:
funny enough at the beginning of RMG a lot of people banned conservatories and dragon hives, and kept the meta healthy for a while, but then that went away, and now hota introduced a lot of those banks.
you could also do away with them as you please. either by creating specific maps or adding them to your ruleset
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Pollo2002
Famous Hero
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posted April 08, 2019 07:40 PM |
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Quote:
actually, it's harder to accumulate a strong stack this way. from 2 to 5 elements you have less chances to find the same banks
Overall there is just more of those banks, most of the time the winning player just go from one bank to another, use the inital army to get cyclps, Angels, phoenix or whatever to open more banks easily, who needs to accomulate all of the same, im ok with having end of week 1 12 Wyeverns, 8 cyclops, 2 angels, 2 fire bird and 3 giants.
Game will be over next week so why does it matter if i can't just put them all in one stack.
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Djangoo
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 08, 2019 09:23 PM |
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I'm with OP here, I go ResidentSleeper every time I see a final battle played out and its yet again a giant stack of Wyvern + Cyclops + Angels vs another stack of Cyclops Wyvern and Angels + some sweet Earth Elementals.
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Lth3
Known Hero
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posted April 08, 2019 10:11 PM |
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Edited by Lth3 at 22:30, 08 Apr 2019.
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Pollo2002 said:
Quote:
actually, it's harder to accumulate a strong stack this way. from 2 to 5 elements you have less chances to find the same banks
Overall there is just more of those banks, most of the time the winning player just go from one bank to another, use the inital army to get cyclps, Angels, phoenix or whatever to open more banks easily, who needs to accomulate all of the same, im ok with having end of week 1 12 Wyeverns, 8 cyclops, 2 angels, 2 fire bird and 3 giants.
Game will be over next week so why does it matter if i can't just put them all in one stack.
well no. this is not worth it, unless you have Leadership or few Morale boosting artifacts, which i doubt you will have 1st or 2nd week ( neither that army you mention to be honest ). otherwise if opponent even have some Morale lowering artifacts - that -3 gonna be devastating for you, trust me. because remember, to get + Morale is 12.5%, while - Morale is a whopping 25%, which translates to your army being obliterated before it can even get to move 
Djangoo said:
I'm with OP here, I go ResidentSleeper every time I see a final battle played out and its yet again a giant stack of Wyvern + Cyclops + Angels vs another stack of Cyclops Wyvern and Angels + some sweet Earth Elementals.
Earth Elemental what ? whoever uses that slow ass crap of a unit for final battle is not my friend lol
4th week only 11 Wyverns and 4 Cyclops believe it or not
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Pollo2002
Famous Hero
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posted April 08, 2019 11:07 PM |
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I watch a lot of people playing stream on twitch, Just today in the last game (Admittely Jebus cross, but hey thats what 99% of games on stream are)
streamer Had 34 cyclops, 30 wyeverns 122
Game lasted 1 hour, to me this is around what i see in the streams.
Source
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/408001469
go to hour 6
thi swas played today a few hours ago, look at the start of the game which started at hour 5.
I agere this was faster than standard, but this army on 127 and game lasting 2 hours is super standard on streams.
In fact if you dont have 25 wyrvern or equivalent by 117, you are probably on the losing side on jebus cross. But other templates i see ocasionally are not THAT Much different, I will post videos as this on different templates as soon as i catch one.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted April 08, 2019 11:33 PM |
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I never liked creature banks period.
Why does every army need to carry wyverns, angels and cyclops, it's really boring. Besides I don't think devils would be thrilled about having angels join their infernal armies or Dungeon would feel good about giants.
I'm not a fan of those ultra short multiplayer games either, but I guess it's good for people that can only spare an hour or two once in a while.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted April 09, 2019 02:13 AM |
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From my point of view, resource banks should be frequent and creature banks very rare, that way one would be forced to fight with the creatures from the town he chosed to start with but that is almost the opposite of what seams to be the tendency nowadays.
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Lth3
Known Hero
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posted April 09, 2019 09:28 AM |
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Edited by Lth3 at 09:33, 09 Apr 2019.
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Pollo2002 said:
I watch a lot of people playing stream on twitch, Just today in the last game (Admittely Jebus cross, but hey thats what 99% of games on stream are)
streamer Had 34 cyclops, 30 wyeverns 122
Game lasted 1 hour, to me this is around what i see in the streams.
Source
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/408001469
go to hour 6
thi swas played today a few hours ago, look at the start of the game which started at hour 5.
I agere this was faster than standard, but this army on 127 and game lasting 2 hours is super standard on streams.
In fact if you dont have 25 wyrvern or equivalent by 117, you are probably on the losing side on jebus cross. But other templates i see ocasionally are not THAT Much different, I will post videos as this on different templates as soon as i catch one.
possibilities are endless with random maps. i don't play jebus personally, very rarely
all i can say is that's not my problem if newbs practice on Jebus. i also don't blame them, because it has the perfect conditions for them to practice - extremely fast expansion and quick culmination with full armies and experience - rinse and repeat. this only takes an hour or so as you say, but effectiveness of the player and critical decision-making increases dramatically when practising on such conditions
i don't watch streams either, but i'd guess many of those so-called popular streamers are just average players themselves, if not even that
Jebus Cross is sort of like a trend nowadays. sometimes i open lobby and see 5 straight open rooms with Jebus Cross - give me a break 
bloodsucker said:
From my point of view, resource banks should be frequent and creature banks very rare, that way one would be forced to fight with the creatures from the town he chosed to start with but that is almost the opposite of what seams to be the tendency nowadays.
it's okay but then i would guess external dwellings should be limited as well, or atleast somewhat guaranteed, so not to make it counter-productive
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Tapani
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 09, 2019 04:50 PM |
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Edited by Tapani at 17:08, 09 Apr 2019.
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Lth3 said:
shouldn't you release your template to the public, if you decided to go public on the matter
Sure.
Making an vs AI adaptation, in case someone actually is going to play it. Not expecting anyone (else) to play it in multiplayer ... and the AI does not prioritize taking the wood/ore warehouses in the starting area.
Posting a link later tonight.
Lth3 said:
this template is very rigid, fast-paced, and straightforward, as there is not much to do each turn or plan or strive for. you don't do much in the beginning. it doesn't require any decent amount of skill from the player, because you just pass turns staying in town, until you can break through the guards to zones where you can actually find something of value
another note to make is that this template is impossible without Earth and Slow, so naturally some towns and heroes who have a better chance to get Earth magic will be great - while some will be just utter crap. also towns like Stronghold/Fortresss who require a decent amount of wood/ore to build their main buildings is utter crap here, since there is no wood/ore mine and they also do not have any decent mages as well. but this is all irrelevant since only Castle, Rampart, and Tower have Diplomacy heroes. so this template is only for those 3 towns, unless you also ban Diplomacy
i'm not gonna discuss the Diplo aspect here as it's game breaking in any way you look at it. nobody's gonna risk the chance of not getting Diplomacy when you can freely choose it
Diplomacy may work when map doesn't have strong guards, but not when there are hordes of lvl 7 monsters waiting to join you - it's like a joke
just one lucky joiner and everything you have worked up until that moment will not matter anymore
besides the obvious, i would say that Tapani's template definitely has an interesting concept. it's like a 200% on steroids, since you start with fort also, and there is not a single mine in starting zone, so you are gonna be forced to stick with basic army for a while. feels like playing a campaign but with random elements to it, and a bit more challenging. i'd go for selectable town, but random hero as an additional rule - and it should be quite fun in an unordinary kind of way. without Diplomacy ofcourse
It is intended to be a NOTHING to MAXIMUM game, for those who appreaciat the buildup rather than the ending. Like loving the journey and not the destination.
The early game (first two weeks) goes quickly, partly by design:
1. In LAN games it is better to play 20 seconds, wait 20 seconds rather than spend 15 minutes and then wait 15 minutes.
2. The fact that a few weeks goes by quickly is equivalent to have monsters on slightly stronger than 'strong' setting. This because all stacks increase with 8% every week.
But you are right, the first two weeks with scouting the first areas might feel boring to some. It changes after ten minutes of play.
Diplomacy ... there seems be some preconceptions about it. While it is pretty good (erm... broken), it is not AS broken as you seem to believe. How about you try the template, and tell me which day you got your first quality joiners :-)
No, joiners for money don't count. And no, that horde of troglodytes you got week 4 month 2 don't count either. 
And if you try it, I am willing to bet that you at some point will wonder if starting with a money hero instead could have been a better choice than the diplo hero ...
Last but least, diplo is not all fair and balanced. Instead those are traded for something better. It is FUN. :-)
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted April 09, 2019 05:05 PM |
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Unpopular opinion: heroes is not a game to be played in multi-player.
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Tapani
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 09, 2019 05:50 PM |
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Lth3 said:
shouldn't you release your template to the public, if you decided to go public on the matter
My template is now online.
Try this for the human vs AI version, or this for the two player version.
If anyone actually is going to play this, I recommend:
- Use the AI template for vs AI play
- Set AI to necro (or random)
- Impossible difficulty (important!)
You should know that the map will contain seriously large monsters, and use of diplomacy or necromancy is recommended to boost your army. However for starting hero, you might consider a money hero. The start is poor, and money management is essential.
Don't be afraid to click end of turn quicker than usual in the first two weeks. This is a game of enjoying the buildup rather than a rush to the final battle. There will not be any AI heroes to disturb you in the first six months or even longer :-)
Last, this template is w.i.p, so beware if everything is not tuned right. Any feedback about border guards being too strong or too weak is welcomed.
The idea that at all time there should be some border guard you should consider passing, perhaps after another dwell or two.
Enjoy!
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted April 09, 2019 08:09 PM |
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Tapani said:
There will not be any AI heroes to disturb you in the first six months or even longer :-)
Bye, bye. I usually manage to conquer an entire Giant map in six months and then I get mad cause I still end up bellow Archangel.
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Pollo2002
Famous Hero
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posted April 16, 2019 06:35 AM |
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I wanted to say that From the hota templates I think Apocalypse is the template that plays probably the closest to what i mean.
Several castles, not a lot but more than most templates, AI, low treasure. My mayor complain other than less castles than i would prefer, is that guards are on Strong in all zones which is bad.
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