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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Tower is OP in HotA
Thread: Tower is OP in HotA This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 06, 2019 10:20 PM

Doomforge said:

well both Nagas and Giants/Titans offer better value. Would you rather have extra mages or extra Nagas/Giants?

Well obviously nagas and giants are better and that is exactly the problem.
By postponing the mage building you are only making mages weaker, instead of buying them as soon as possible were they could actually make a difference. Tower is the only town with 3 ranged units, apart from learning spells their priority should be getting those ranged units ASAP. That is at least my and original creators opinion.

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Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted May 06, 2019 10:20 PM

Mages do not deserve high dwelling costs but also Monks, Evil Eyes and Devils too, you would shift the balance if you rearrange dwelling costs considering unit strenghts.

Some dwellings are expensive some are not and some of them are underpriced like dwellins of pit fiend or dendroid. If a town has significiant advatages over other towns in ome aspects than there is nothing wrong with the cost of Mage tower.

But there is absolutely no reason at huge costs of devil dwellings. Inferno  has always been the weakest town and devils are also the weakest 7.th tier unit considering its price.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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Retired Hero
posted May 06, 2019 11:00 PM

phoenix4ever said:
By postponing the mage building you are only making mages weaker, instead of buying them as soon as possible were they could actually make a difference.


Now that is a strange logic Your priority are always those units that make most difference. Once those are bought, you can think about adding the rest. By pursuing units that are actually weaker first, you're hindering your potential.

phoenix4ever said:
Tower is the only town with 3 ranged units, apart from learning spells their priority should be getting those ranged units ASAP. That is at least my and original creators opinion.


Assuming you have limited gold and can't just buy everything on the spot, there's 0 reason to pick mages over Titans and Nagas that are among the best units of their respective tiers whereas Mages are just decent tier 4 unit, nowhere near top (Vamplords, Assyids, Crusaders).
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


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Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 06, 2019 11:35 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 23:36, 06 May 2019.

As I said nagas and giants are better than mages, but I don't agree with the idea that you are allowed to buy genies, nagas and giants before mages, neither did NWC.
Imagine if you could build Red Dragons before Medusas or Angels before Swordsmen, it just feels weird and wrong.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted May 07, 2019 08:58 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 09:22, 07 May 2019.

Are we talking about balance or game design here?

Cause NWC also thought Firebird with base growth 2 is okay, or that Cloak of Undead King can be made with three artifacts, two of which are Treasure tier and that it won't be broken beyond belief

As for game design: Well you can build Behemoths before ogres, or ghost dragons before wights Does that feel wrong? Not to me.




If we want to talk about balance we'd need to focus on the maths behind it first. Note that what you see below is a simplification: it doesn't take retal into consideration, or non-direct-damage specials (like Death stare), or multi-attack of Hydras/Cerberi/Liches/Magogs, so it is flawed, but some basic data is there.

EHP is calculated against an attacker with 20 ATT.
DPW (Damage per week, or per population really) is calculated against a defender with 20 DEF.
HotA stats are used.
Raw damage specials (ie. Double damage from Death knights, defense reduction from Behemots) are included.





A few things to ponder here:

1. as you can see Castle and Cove have bigger damage generation than other towns, raw DPS wise, this doesn't include ridiculous Avenger special of snakes nor killing shot of seadogs, of course. For castle, if you rule out sucky Zealots all their damage dealers have also above average EHP, which makes them powerful and tough at the same time.

2. while Tower and Rampart have high effective HP, a lot of that HP is effectively attributed to units with not so great combat value, ie. Dendroids or Iron Golems. If you took out that "noise" you'd notice that core EHP for the factions is pretty much different. Now I've seen some successful play with ie. Dwarves being the snowball stack (makes sense because of magic resistance actually), but for your bread and butter hero you're likely to leave out slower units behind.

3. The arch magi in question are fairly average tier 4 unit, nowhere near the crazy Assyids or those pesky Vamplords, at the same time Nagas and Titans even without their respective specials are among the top tier 6/7 units, so missing out on those to get some mages is IMO a huge no-no.

4. While some towns look weak raw numbers wise (ie. Fortress), they have great specials to make up for it. If hydras land hits on 2 stacks per turn and gorgons are allowed to deathstare a tier7 unit, Fortress actually becomes one of the best damage dealer factions in the game, for instance. So take all those numbers with a grain of salt.

5. Inferno is on the lower side of EHP and damage, and the specials aren't that great. You really need to work your butt off with demon farming to make this town great. -2 luck to Archdevils is actually great. Remember, at -3 you get roughly -12.5% to enemy damage, which is almost like getting an extra armorer assuming the opponent has 0 luck.

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted May 07, 2019 09:22 AM

Wolf Raiders do more damage than most 6-tier creatures

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted May 07, 2019 09:50 AM
Edited by Maurice at 09:52, 07 May 2019.

monere said:
Wolf Raiders do more damage than most 6-tier creatures


True, but their hitpoints are the lowest of all 2-tier creatures (ignoring Marksmen here). Since they're also melee, they have to close in for the kill - and retaliations will then quickly drain their numbers. It takes some skill and effort to mitigate damage dealt to them, while at the same time maximising their damage output. Their double damage is useless if most get killed after their first attack .
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


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Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 07, 2019 09:57 AM

@Doomforge Nice answer and obviously NWC also made poor decisions (Phoenix growth, Necromancy, Cloak of the Undead King, Wizard's Well etc.) And Stronghold obviously needs to get Behemoths ASAP, that is what that faction is all about, doing some physical damage.
But I just don't like how mages were taken out of the build chain and they will most likely be build last now.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted May 07, 2019 10:19 AM

I think those numbers fairly accurately show that Conflux has been overnerfed in HotA, by the way.

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted May 07, 2019 11:03 AM

Maurice said:
monere said:
Wolf Raiders do more damage than most 6-tier creatures


True, but their hitpoints are the lowest of all 2-tier creatures (ignoring Marksmen here). Since they're also melee, they have to close in for the kill - and retaliations will then quickly drain their numbers. It takes some skill and effort to mitigate damage dealt to them, while at the same time maximising their damage output. Their double damage is useless if most get killed after their first attack .


I know, but I don't think it's too big of an issue. Just WAIT them, and then attack a creature who has already retaliated. Their speed is huge anyway, so they could probably get to the enemy in 1 turn.

I wonder if any game has been won - not intentionally - because of the wolfies. I'd watch that battle...

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted May 07, 2019 12:04 PM

monere said:
I wonder if any game has been won - not intentionally - because of the wolfies. I'd watch that battle...


Probably a lot of them, actually. Tyrexor has been a popular main for comp hota players a while ago. I'm not following the scene but most likely he's still damn good.

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted May 07, 2019 12:34 PM

Doomforge said:
Probably a lot of them, actually. Tyrexor has been a popular main for comp hota players a while ago. I'm not following the scene but most likely he's still damn good.


do you have a link?

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Zaio-Baio
Zaio-Baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 07, 2019 05:42 PM

Doomforge said:

If we want to talk about balance we'd need to focus on the maths behind it first.


And the math is off

According to the chart, 2 Archangels have 750 EHP vs 20 att attacker.

2 Archangels have 30 def and a total of 500 hp. If a unit with 20 att attacks a unit with 30 def, the attacking unit will have its dmg reduced by 25%. 750 reduced by 25% does not make 500
Archangels EHP should be 667.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted May 07, 2019 06:51 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 19:39, 07 May 2019.

EDIT - yep, there's a huge oversight in the formula haha
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Zaio-Baio
Zaio-Baio


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posted May 07, 2019 07:05 PM

@ Doomforge

So what would happen if a stack with base dmg = 667 and 20 attack attacks a stack of 2 archangels with 30 def ?

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted May 07, 2019 07:39 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 21:07, 07 May 2019.

Ahh, wait. I guess I've embarassed myself with this kind of mental simplification. Yes, the damage fall-off is linear, but the HP multiplication being a result of it isn't.



Of course with the cut-off amount of 28 points of difference the game doesn't follow such sharp curve.

in other words, yep, a pretty big oversight on my part. Thanks for pointing it out, lol. My brain must have brainfarted or something.

The correct formula is of course HP*growth/(1-0,025*(DEF-ATT)) and the correct graph looks like this:



gotta correct this mess. I'll post correct values later on.


my old formula used * instead of / for the last segment, that's why it was off

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


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posted May 07, 2019 09:44 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 21:45, 07 May 2019.

I'll be interested to see the correct numbers next time. (Of course creatures speed, morale and abilities are not accounted for with this formula, still interesting though.)

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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posted May 07, 2019 09:44 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 21:45, 07 May 2019.

not much changes - the EHP numbers are a bit different but the proportions remain the same (Rampart is still 1st).

The DPW, of course, is the same.
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Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted May 08, 2019 11:54 PM

What do NWC, EHP, DPW means?

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