Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Logistics, Offense and Armorer specialists
Thread: Logistics, Offense and Armorer specialists This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted May 20, 2019 10:03 AM

Doomforge said:
"Balance" vs. AI is meaningless. The amount of freebies the AI gets for most (hard fanmade) maps specifically means you're expected to abuse certain AI combat weaknesses to win. Whether you are using a log hero or not isn't actually that much of an issue.


True. But in PvP games logistics specialty is such a game breaker that it's not even fun playing the game anymore. I have once punched a table because I've lost to my friend who would constantly play Gunnar some 18 years ago when we used to play this game weekly, and I lost most battles against gunnar when I was playing monere, gundula or tazar most of the time, and there were no rules agreed upon by both of us at that time because we were new to the game and we didn't know how to counter most of the game breaking mechanics (logistcs specialists, necromancy, diplomacy, mass berserker, DD, and so on).

Well, we still don't know how to counter those because some of them you just can't counter (logistics-specialists, DD, or diplomacy), which is why we've imposed rules to never EVER play with these things in PvP games. And here's the thing: it's fun! It actually IS fun playing without logistics specialists, without diplomacy, without necromancy, without DD, without fly, without cloak of the undead king, without mass berserk, without summon elemental spells, and so on.

All these elements have been considered SPAM by me and my friend and as soon as we have stopped using them the game has become so much better and more balanced.... and I was still losing most of the time

Summoning 200 earth elementals each turn for 10 turns in a row doesn't prove anything. Sure, you will win (who wouldn't?), but that's not tactics and strategy of any kind. That's just spamming, just like diplomacy and logistics.

Anyway, I've made my point (hopefully). And if I haven't.... well, I doubt that anyone cares anyway since I'm playing like a newbie

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 20, 2019 10:07 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 10:14, 20 May 2019.

Galaad said:
Using a strong hero is cheating but reloading after a bad decision is not?

Well I can reload the game whether I play Gunnar or Geon, Gunnar is however 100 times better than Geon.

@monere I actually agree with a lot of the things you said, the game can become more fun, by removing/nerfing things, great examples are Diplomacy, Dimension Door, Town Portal, Cloak of the Undead King, Wizard's Well and Shackles of War…
And don't keep calling yourself a noob, you might be better than you think.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted May 20, 2019 10:27 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 10:32, 20 May 2019.

monere said:
It actually IS fun playing without logistics specialists, without diplomacy, without necromancy, without DD, without fly, without cloak of the undead king, without mass berserk, without summon elemental spells, and so on.


Summon elemental is only broken vs. AI. And in the campaigns of course, in particular. It's the closest thing to I-win-button there is, next to DD, but humans aren't dumb like AI.

The rest is banned via tournament rules available at Hota ingame you don't have to worry about diplo when playing online anymore. Necro was nerfed by half.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted May 20, 2019 11:34 AM

@phoenix.... to be honest, I don't consider myself noob. I just like playing like one because it's the funniest thing about HoMM for me. I'm the type of guy who wants to be left alone and develop his towns and armies at his own pace, not being rushed or constantly on the lookout for the enemy (be it human, or AI) which is why I prefer to play the biggest possible map with underground, and explore and clear the snow out of every corner of it before engaging in a final battle against the AI (which I landlock in a tiny corner of the map where it can't bother me).

I also give him about +10 more stats than what I anticipate I would get after clearing the map (I have also tried giving +99 stats to heroes like Neela and Tazar to make the game even more challenging for me, but they have beaten the crap out of me xD)

Also, I devoid the AI of any compromising / game ruining spells like TP, DD, Fly, summon anything, AND... also I take the direct-damage spells away from it so it won't lose precious tactics with casting a simple implosion on an army of 2500 Titans, only killing 20-30 of them when casting berserk for example would cause more casualties to my army.

When you customize the map and AI to this extent the game becomes pretty good, even against the AI, which is why the odds of me defeating it are usually around 50-50

So yeah, I'm not really noob at this game, but I do play like one (according to what the pros say): one final battle at the end of month 12, with whatever skills, arties, and spells I have had the luck of finding. Well, to be honest, in WoG you ALWAYS find ALL of these things, and if there's something you can't find you usually swap, morph, or whatever other mechanics that WoG provides, so in the end you still end up with EVERYTHING you want. But even so, when you make the AI stronger than you (+10-12 ATT and DEF is enough), and you also give him 10-15% more army than what I project I might end up with after 12 months... well, the game is seriously better, especially in WoG when you fight against hell hydras on Tazar. I doubt that pros would be able to beat that easily (in WoG the hell hydras can't be blinded, can't be berserkered, can't be slowed, the only thing that works against them is quicksand and forcefield, but even so they will reach to you in 2-3 turns at most and they have acid breath and fire shield. It's nuts how tough they are, especially at rank 10).


@doomforge... been playing HoMM for 20+ years, never played a single campaign... and never will. So I wouldn't know about campaigns.

Also, I was speaking about PvP games, not about the AI. Against the AI most HoMM fans don't even find fun playing anymore because it's too weak. Like I said, I was speaking about summoning elementals against human players, and that spells is spammy and game breaking, just as much as diplo, logistics, or DD, because when you have 2-3 stacks of elementals that take retaliation of your enemies off it makes a huge difference. Imagine having 10 stacks of them. Not only will you take retaliations off easily, but you can protect your armies easier (especially if you have 2-3 types of shooters in your army), and you can also clog the map to the point where large creatures (hydras, behemoths, champions, dread knights, naga queens, etc.) have a hard time getting through. It's game over right there. I've had this happen to me several times until we've imposed the rule of not using summon elementals. And it's a good rule

And yeah, I know that those things are banned in HotA, and I agree with this decision fully ... I also know about necro, and I agree with that nerf, too. Even at 15% it still makes Necro too powerful on XL maps and 10 months into the game. But it's a good balance, that needed to be done, and I fully agree with this one, too.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 20, 2019 11:58 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 11:59, 20 May 2019.

Ah the talk about "the pros". "The pros" are only good at what they do, because they have been playing the same template over and over, the same faction over and over and the same hero over and over again. They have spent so many hours basically doing the same thing over and over and with each time trying to become better than last time. But during those hundreds (or thousands) of hours doing the same thing, did they actually have fun or did it feel more like work? I personally think it would feel like work and that's exactly when I go "Nope, not gonna do it".
So "the pros" play the game their way, which they are excellent at, then there are guys like you and me that play the game very differently, but I'm sure we are also very good at what we do. The difference is we have fun playing, they dont and I'm glad I'm not "a pro".

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted May 20, 2019 12:23 PM

(not wanting to upset anyone) I would say that even the pros find fun in playing this game, otherwise they wouldn't keep playing it after so many years

But yeah, I agree that part of why they are pros is repetition. I could probably become a pro myself as I have the necessary IQ, but I don't have the necessary patience to keep doing the same thing over and over again for eternity. I like to vary things a little

I don't know about you (how good you are at what you do because I've never watched you play - do you have a youtube / twitch link, or something by the way, where I can watch you play?), but I'm definitely good at what I do in H3 - getting owned by the AI hahaha

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 20, 2019 12:33 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 12:33, 20 May 2019.

monere said:
but I'm definitely good at what I do in H3 - getting owned by the AI hahaha

Then I guess you can call yourself "a pro" at that, you should be proud of yourself.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted May 20, 2019 12:57 PM

Yeah, I'm pro at that, but I'm not proud of myself because sometimes I rage-punch objects. No bueno

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted May 20, 2019 01:01 PM

monere said:
I'm the type of guy who wants to be left alone and develop his towns and armies at his own pace, not being rushed or constantly on the lookout for the enemy (be it human, or AI) which is why I prefer to play the biggest possible map with underground, and explore and clear the snow out of every corner of it before engaging in a final battle against the AI (which I landlock in a tiny corner of the map where it can't bother me).


Just out of curiousity: why have an enemy AI at all then? You should be able to create such maps with a special victory condition, like "Obtain Artifact X", or "Kill Creatures at position Y", without any AI player at all. It would seem that setting up such an AI is more of a hassle than a boon anyway, since it's the conclusion, while your main goal seems to be to explore the map and build up everything.
____________
The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted May 20, 2019 01:45 PM
Edited by monere at 13:47, 20 May 2019.

@maurice.... many reasons

1) I love fighting in video games... as long as I win. And what better opportunity to win a fight than against the dumb AI

2) playing the largest possible map (XL+U) for 7 hours without having a fight at the end is like having sex with a nymph for 3 hours without having an orgasm

3) after several hours of exploration town building you feel the need for some action

I have played only against creatures in the beginning (many years ago when I have first created custom maps for my own gameplays) but it was boring. Even with heroes sometimes the battles are easy because of the limitations of the AI, but if I give the AI some heroes and their corresponding creatures (Tazar / Neela / Mephala with defensive creatures: dendroids, hydras, gorgons, naga queens, unicorns, black dragons, etc... or Mutare with 3-4 stacks of various dragons in her army, or Tamika at level 65 with 3000 dread knights)... these setups matter, and make the fight challenging for me, and I'm not lying when I say that many times - if I don't use game breaking spells like blind, or berserk - the AI actually beats me.

Last but not least, it's not a hassle anymore to setup the AI. I have saved a few templates that I like, and whenever I feel like playing I just replace the placeholders with the heroes and creatures that I wanna fight against. I think it takes me about 30 minutes or so to setup everything. No big deal, really when I think about what a fulfilling game I will have

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted May 20, 2019 02:46 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 14:49, 20 May 2019.

monere said:
@doomforge... been playing HoMM for 20+ years, never played a single campaign... and never will. So I wouldn't know about campaigns.


I am finishing my playthrough, it's actually for the first time since I never played the campaigns back then. If difficulty setting is possible, I play on Impossible only. Beat almost all campaigns so far except Hota (half-way through), Clash of the Dragons and Sword of Frost.

It's fun, you should give it a try. One game I'd really recommend playing is "Warriors of the Wasteland". Best story in HoMM3 campaign, period. Good writing for the most part, it felt completely different than the usual stuff - more detailed, more personal.


as for the whole "pro talk"... I've been at pro level at actually a few games (lower tier pro, obviously) in my youth but gave up on competitive gameplay completely later on; it does require an insane amount of repetition and there's just too many games out there to waste what little time we have on this world on one game, no matter how good this game is. And besides games there's books, movies, anime, basically a crapton of things you may want to experience in order not to miss out all the incredible things human imagination can create.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted May 20, 2019 05:28 PM

Books?!? I never liked reading even when I was young and in mood for reading, why would I read now?

Also, what even is anime? I mean, OK, I know Dragonball Z, and stuff like that, but I don't find any anime fun. Honestly, it's not my thing.

I do agree on the "waste time with only one game" part, though. I mean, I agree that this is the right thinking (not getting stuck on things), but I can't do it as easily as others. I've got the bug, I'll probably stick with it for all eternity, albeit if I'm not gonna play it often. But once every couple of months I do feel the need to see the Naga Queens walk across the map... or the Chaos Hydra having a bite out of multiple stacks... or the Dread Knight pausing for a second only to see the death blow... or the stupid cows death staring some archangels... or... well, you get the point

As for playing the campaigns, maybe I'll give them a try when I'm old enough and don't have lots of things to do. For now, though, even if I wanted to play them I just can't find the time

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 20, 2019 05:54 PM
Edited by Maurice at 19:05, 20 May 2019.

monere said:
I do feel the need to see the Naga Queens walk across the map... or the Chaos Hydra having a bite out of multiple stacks... or the Dread Knight pausing for a second only to see the death blow... or the stupid cows death staring some archangels...

Yes, I love this! Actually I'm loving this old game so much I'm playing it every week and I have no intentions of stopping soon, especially not when HotA exists and keeps nice content coming.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted May 20, 2019 06:25 PM
Edited by monere at 18:27, 20 May 2019.

man, I don't understand you. You're excited about new content but you never give WoG a try of 1 month only, and see if you like it

I know that the learning curve for WoG is a bit bigger, but that shouldn't matter for real fans of the game like us. And the rewards are huge, even bigger than in HotA (no disrespect to HotA team which I genuinely respect and admire for keeping a game like Heroes 3 alive for so long).

The customization in WoG is so granular that you can literally have new content to play with for years to come, if new content is what you're after. Like I said, you just have to WANT to at least try it. Ok, maybe not for 1 month, but put aside 2-3 hours to read through all of the WoG scripts, check the ones you like / uncheck the ones you don't like, and then play with those settings several hours a day for 1-2 weeks.

If after this time you won't catch the WoG bug it means that you're either extremely biased against WoG, or that WoG is simply not your cup of tea

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 20, 2019 06:30 PM

Heh, thanks man, but again WoG is not my cup of tea, it just seems like a big mess to me. Besides there are no Cove or Factory in WoG.
There are two things I like from WoG though and I really wish HotA would implement:
* 9th and 10th secondary skill.
* Market Of Time.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted May 20, 2019 06:58 PM

And does the fact that you can change artifacts to something similar not appeal to you? For example, if you need ring of health to make elixir of life, but you have 2 rings of vitality you can change one of those into a ring of health and complete the elixir.

Or, if you need helm of heavenly enlightment to assemble Angelic Alliance but you have 2 Armor of Wonder you can upgrade 1 of the armors 5 times until you get the HoHE. You tell me that this is not neat

Also, regarding the skills you can actually have 19 skills, not just 10, and all of the useless skills like eagle eye, mysticism, etc. now are incredibly useful. I always get those skills whenever they're being offered (well, I get most skills to be honest, except for navigation since I never play with water-y maps).

And there's also many other cool objects that can do many cool things, but I forgot them because I haven't played Heroes since last year.

But anyway, I'm not gonna insist. If you don't like it, you don't like it and period!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Thread Destroyer
posted May 20, 2019 09:04 PM
Edited by Oddball13579 at 00:05, 21 May 2019.

phoenix4ever said:
But perhaps we could agree it is a bit boring with people always choosing Crag Hack, Tazar, Gunnar, Dessa etc.?
Then ban them. A pretty simple solution.

Edit: Removed a string of quote and reply.




____________
"Everyone is a schlong sucker." - Kayna
"I would have needed to dislocate my jaw to fit it inside my hole." - Blizzardboy

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 20, 2019 09:19 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 21:19, 20 May 2019.

Oddball13579 said:
This coming from the guy who admitted that he had a separate monitor with map editor open so he could play through battles on there and know the outcome.

I have never said that, what are you talking about?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Supreme Hero
Thread Destroyer
posted May 21, 2019 12:06 AM

phoenix4ever said:
Oddball13579 said:
This coming from the guy who admitted that he had a separate monitor with map editor open so he could play through battles on there and know the outcome.

I have never said that, what are you talking about?
My apolgies I got you mixed up with another person on this forum. Comepletly disregard. Also edited my previous comment to remove the mix up.

Sorry phoenix!!
____________
"Everyone is a schlong sucker." - Kayna
"I would have needed to dislocate my jaw to fit it inside my hole." - Blizzardboy

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 21, 2019 05:07 AM

Okay, apology accepted.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0919 seconds