|
| Thread: Your 1st choice for the secondary skill of your main hero? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Zaio-Baio
Promising
Famous Hero
|
posted July 17, 2019 04:29 AM |
|
|
Otuken said:
Voted Log because with that you start immiadetaly benefiting them but Earth Magic becomes only really op with Expert version and its long path and games pretty much can be end before ever learning expert earth.
There is a reason why Log heroes are banned but not Hack and Tazar.
Log specs and log born heroes are banned because all fan made maps/templates tend to have very rich middle zone. So rich that 1st player to get there usually wins. That being said, during the early game creeping ability is more important than movement. Having extra 30% movement doesnt matter if you cant creep. And mass slow is the best creeping spell. It allows breaking creature banks a lot earlier and with less loses. As said multi maps are all about going 1st to the rich middle zone. But the passage is heavily guarded. So you need to open creature banks to get big stack of angels/wyverns/cyclops and use it to break to the middle and win. And mass slow will also help greatly when you fight the guards. In short if you have mass slow you can creep well and get free army, artifacts and experience. If you have exp logs but you cant creep then you can walk in circles in your starting zone and lose to opponent with mass slow 
|
|
phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
|
|
posted July 17, 2019 07:16 AM |
|
|
bloodsucker said:
I don't get why Phoenix always talks about Intelligence specialty. It is true that is broken but only in some specially designed maps where you constantly have to spend a zillion spellpoints to win the major battles. In random or any type of even map, Intelligence is good but Intelligence specialty gives very little advantage and the lack of might primary skill points, plus the difficulty to get good secondary might skills makes them a weaker bet then any random ranger, demoniac or beastmaster.
Have you ever encountered an enemy with 4 times the spellpoints you have? Say you have 250 mana, but the enemy has 1000, how do you expect to defeat such a foe, if your heroes and forces are about equally strong? It's nearly impossible.
Intelligence might be extra powerful in my map because I disable Wizard's Well, Magic Springs and Altar of Mana and Town Portal only goes to nearest town for me, so I can't always jump to a Dungeon with Mana Vortex. I even decreased Expert Intelligence to +75%, Mana Vortex to +50% and skill specialists to 3% per level, but I still find Intelligence specialists very powerful.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted July 17, 2019 07:30 AM |
|
|
Zaio-Baio said:
Having extra 30% movement doesnt matter if you cant creep. And mass slow is the best creeping spell.
Log specialists chances to get expert earth are no different than any other might hero of their class, so how would be this a point?
Also maybe a new forum should be created, for templates only. The OP, as so many other new players joining the forum for information, does not play them, yet he gets same constant answers about bunch of wiverns, angels and cyclopes rewards, rich middle zones, banned heroes/skills, all this stuff related only to what a very minority plays and which makes zero sense if you are not into it.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted July 17, 2019 07:56 AM |
|
|
phoenix4ever said:
Have you ever encountered an enemy with 4 times the spellpoints you have? Say you have 250 mana, but the enemy has 1000, how do you expect to defeat such a foe, if your heroes and forces are about equally strong? It's nearly impossible.
Well, there are dozens of battles videos over all forums, about such setup. The question is, do you ever watch them or play other maps where you will be forced to do so?
I agree that having 1 zillion spell points makes things much easier. But also invites to intellectual laziness, as you have way too much time.
|
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
|
posted July 17, 2019 10:18 AM |
|
|
phoenix4ever said:
Intelligence might be extra powerful in my map because I disable Wizard's Well, Magic Springs and Altar of Mana and Town Portal only goes to nearest town for me, so I can't always jump to a Dungeon with Mana Vortex. I even decreased Expert Intelligence to +75%, Mana Vortex to +50% and skill specialists to 3% per level, but I still find Intelligence specialists very powerful.
You can leave out the "might" at the start of your text here. The fact that you have nerfed those things you mention has inadvertently increased the power of Intelligence on your Heroes. The funny thing is that it has become so powerful, that you are now banning Heroes with that skill, too.
It does raise a question: when will you stop nerfing / banning stuff in your own game version? As you've seen clearly here, every nerf makes that which you don't nerf, that much stronger.
____________
The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
|
|
Richard_Chen
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted July 17, 2019 10:33 AM |
|
|
Haha, I am the first one vote 'other'.
Maybe we need to consider carefully for the whole map whether it cost long time or short time. If we can finish it in only several days (like I did in my Youtube channel - Challenge finishing Dead and Buried in 20 days), maybe it is more useful to choose Artillery or Scouting rather than Earth Magic or Wisdom. Some island map we don't need Logistic, because Navigation is much more useful.
But there is only one secondary skill which is useful in 99% maps - both official or random maps (May not useful in imba map). It belongs to 'other' in the vote list - DIPLOMACY! If there is no 'no diplomacy' rule, I will definitely choose this skill whenever it comes out.
|
|
RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
|
|
posted July 17, 2019 10:45 AM |
|
|
I voted Earth because once you can cast expert Slow, rest of the game is easy gg 
|
|
phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
|
|
posted July 17, 2019 11:47 AM |
|
|
@Maurice I haven't banned any heroes, except for Sir Mullich and Galthran.
The nerf to skill specialists from 5 to 3% is a good change imo, it makes those Logistics, Offense, Armorer and Intelligence specialists less OP.
|
|
longtry
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted July 17, 2019 12:09 PM |
|
|
@phoenix4ever: Don't worry, no offense taken because I have armorer, lol. Well, I knew that Slow & Haste counter each other, and if you cast mass Slow during the 1st round only to discover the opponent has expert Air then you've wasted a whole spell. I guess my earlier attempt to express what I wanted to say was bad, I just want to say Slow is better than Haste due to the round-down effect.
Salamandre said:
The OP, as so many other new players joining the forum for information, does not play them, yet he gets same constant answers about bunch of wiverns, angels and cyclopes rewards, rich middle zones, banned heroes/skills, all this stuff related only to what a very minority plays and which makes zero sense if you are not into it.
Maybe you see my post count and think I'm new, but I played H3 from its early time, when there was not real internet in my country to access info gems like this site, thus my skills were not the best then. Even so, I knew well what buildings give wyverns, angels or cyclops when one defeats the critters, and I knew about rich middle zones. Just that I didn't know much about banned things because of the aforementioned lack of multiplaying.
I gave up H3 a long time ago and only returned lately, so if you want to say I'm new then it's correct in a sense. Just don't come to conclusion so early. Also, even if I were new, what's so bad about interesting debates like the one happening here, which encourages newbies to learn?
|
|
revolut1oN
Famous Hero
|
|
posted July 17, 2019 12:24 PM |
|
|
|
Well, I wouldnt call 1000+ players playing HotA online at any moment a minority. Much less people play WoG and heavily scripted custom maps nowadays - you can easily judge by the activity in the threads.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted July 17, 2019 12:36 PM |
|
|
@longtry
I didn't say it is bad, but that it makes zero sense to throw definitive analysis about which skill should be prioritized, when everybody knows this choice entirely depends on the kind of map and gameplay. Logistic might be important in multi because time there is the key. In single custom maps, that's not the case, you can skip it safely then replace by some skills which you would never use in multi, like intelligence or/and resistance, very useful in that configuration.
What I like the most in Heroes is the adaptability range, you start then progressively adapt to what you face, not using predefined schema. What I dislike, on the other side, is that modern templates design kinds pushes you to use same oiled strategy, then each game looks repetitive.
Some will surely disagree, but this is why I find Hota's changes, on necro especially, ludicrous. It WAS indeed a challenge to beat a necro under a good player's hands, and that forced the opponent to seek for creative ways and constantly step outside the road, re-invent the game. Now we get just a redundant skirmish, for score sake fairness.
revolut1oN said:
Well, I wouldnt call 1000+ players playing HotA online at any moment a minority. Much less people play WoG and heavily scripted custom maps nowadays - you can easily judge by the activity in the threads.
Well, I was talking about this forum players, here where new players join then ask. Also I would never give any hints or advice on how to play the game, using WoG rules. WoG is exclusively for fun, offering to curious players new environments, for a change.
Do you know any forum where those thousand players exchange impressions, and if yes, can you give us a link please?
|
|
Otuken
Famous Hero
|
|
posted July 17, 2019 02:56 PM |
|
|
Zaio-Baio said:
Otuken said:
Voted Log because with that you start immiadetaly benefiting them but Earth Magic becomes only really op with Expert version and its long path and games pretty much can be end before ever learning expert earth.
There is a reason why Log heroes are banned but not Hack and Tazar.
Log specs and log born heroes are banned because all fan made maps/templates tend to have very rich middle zone. So rich that 1st player to get there usually wins. That being said, during the early game creeping ability is more important than movement. Having extra 30% movement doesnt matter if you cant creep. And mass slow is the best creeping spell. It allows breaking creature banks a lot earlier and with less loses. As said multi maps are all about going 1st to the rich middle zone. But the passage is heavily guarded. So you need to open creature banks to get big stack of angels/wyverns/cyclops and use it to break to the middle and win. And mass slow will also help greatly when you fight the guards. In short if you have mass slow you can creep well and get free army, artifacts and experience. If you have exp logs but you cant creep then you can walk in circles in your starting zone and lose to opponent with mass slow
Expert slow helps a lot to break creature banks but isn't it much more necessarity and better trying to break these banks with minimal loses as much as possible before learning expert earth?
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted July 17, 2019 03:06 PM |
|
|
phoenix4ever said:
Have you ever encountered an enemy with 4 times the spellpoints you have? Say you have 250 mana, but the enemy has 1000, how do you expect to defeat such a foe, if your heroes and forces are about equally strong? It's nearly impossible.
And then you complain when I call you a noob...
If I already know the necessary spells and got the right secondary skills, AI can have the double of the forces and even some might skill points advantage that I will call it a peace of cake and will certainly finish with enough spellpoints to TP somewhere and recover the rest.
As Sal pointed, have you ever even saw what Richard_Chen has been posting these days? Or the threads your good advisor on "How to edit HotA" RoseCavalier so carefully built to show us how this game can be played against AI?
It is hard to take your opinions seriously when you talk about a seriously modified game you none the less don't understand the basics.
____________
|
|
phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
|
|
posted July 17, 2019 03:57 PM |
|
|
You are wrong again Bloodsucker.
You would not be able to win that battle I mentioned! Why?, because I also made the AI much harder by tweaking AI Values of spells. So you would lose for certain.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted July 17, 2019 04:14 PM |
|
|
|
The resurrect phase in massive battles.
|
|
phe
Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
|
|
posted July 17, 2019 05:11 PM |
|
Edited by phe at 17:21, 17 Jul 2019.
|
|
to make this game more fair Mass Slow shouldn't be at Expert Earth but gotten by hero after for example 25 uses of Slow or victorious battles with use of Slow regardless of having Earth Magic(after 15 uses or victorious battles with use of Slow it would grant Mass Slow at none/basic level; every level of Scholar and Learning or even Sorcery could reduce this amount by 2 or 3)...similar with Haste and some others...
|
|
phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
|
|
posted July 17, 2019 06:05 PM |
|
|
OhforfSake said:
A battle is a limited amount of rounds, going from 250 to 1000 mana won't do you much good unless you have some way to extend the battle into an absurd amount of rounds, which I am unfamiliar with how to do under normal circumstances.
The AI could very well use those 1000 mana to summon 150 Earth Elementals for 50 rounds in row. That's 7500 Earth Elementals you have to dispose of! It could also use them to cast Resurrection/Animate Dead or spam Implosion/Meteor Shower/Chain Lightning or Blind/Berserk...
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted July 17, 2019 06:07 PM |
|
|
@Phoenix4ever Your words, your secret map, your set of rules... How can I prove you wrong?
Yet, send me a pack file with your changes and the instructions to set them up and I will take some pics along the way.
____________
|
|
phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
|
|
posted July 17, 2019 06:12 PM |
|
|
You can't prove me wrong and you don't have to.
Let us just discuss the game based of how it is in SoD or HotA, just because I talk a lot about my rules, does'nt mean I can expect anyone to discuss balance based on my changes, unless I specifically ask about it, which I have sometimes.
I still think Intelligence is an awesome skill, whether it's SoD, HotA or HotA with my rules.
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted July 17, 2019 06:31 PM |
|
|
phoenix4ever said:
because I also made the AI much harder by tweaking AI Values of spells. So you would lose for certain.
I need to prove you wrong because you stated something that I'm betting isn't true. It's just that.
Of course Intelligence is a great skill, I never said the opposite. What I say is that there is no advantage in having specialty in it, because what you lose in Attack, Defense and secondary might skills proficiency more then dissipates it.
It happens the same with Loynis Prayer and Jeditte/Alamar Resurrection, the spell is useful to be teached to other heroes but you are better served by a might hero that can learn and use the spell then by the specialist himself.
____________
|
| |
|
|
