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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Inferno and Dungeon BlackSmith
Thread: Inferno and Dungeon BlackSmith This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 11, 2020 05:23 PM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 17:31, 11 Sep 2020.

I play with HotA and currently Necro is actually the town that is doing the very worst, so I don't want any more Necro nerfs.
Besides changing the skill probabilities makes the game crash, thanks to HotA introducing a new skill. Nice work HotA.
Yeah Vokial could start with a Ballista or Cannon, it would be instead of Walking Dead then.

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Revolut1oN
Revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted September 11, 2020 06:55 PM

Stop spreading this nonsense, Necro is still the strongest town in HotA.

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 11, 2020 07:53 PM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 19:54, 11 Sep 2020.

It is not nonsense, it's my personal experience. But I have also done a few things myself like Animate Dead only being permanent at advanced level and CotUK only making Skeletons Warriors and of course there is no Galthran, but Ranloo instead.
I also don't play with spell research, so Animate Dead is sometimes hard to learn. But overall Necro always feels slow, both in combat and on the map, because they always carry those skels around.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted September 11, 2020 08:32 PM

NimoStar said:
First aid tent is perfect for Necropolis.

Read the town heroes history. Necropolis is a radical healer faction, many necromancers are exile clerics tha wanted to take healing "too far". It also fits resurrection topic. And it is specially designed as a "Mad scientist lab".


Maybe you know lore better than me, but this isn't actually backed up by neither the manual or any of the necro hero bios. Therefore, it's hard to see why such material would have been used by the game desingers. Also, even if necromancers would have served as clerics, that doesn't necessary mean they would still be suitable as healers, as they've already found superior tactic - raising same troops over and over again from the dead - so there really isn't much use for healing anyway. (Cure cannot either be found from necro mage guild).

Gameplaywise the tent is making even less sense in the necropolis. Wights and Vampire lords are able to heal themselves, heroes have basically no way learn first aid, tier 7 has 200 hp max, and liches aren't very good target for healing either.

NWC clearly meant there to be a cycle of warmachines in each alligment and Stronghold was used to fill cycle, as there were originally only 2 neutral towns. When conflux was added, it made most sense to give them the ballista.

If we would want to stay true for this idea, then dungeon would get ammo cart, first aid would go to inferno and ballista would be used by necropolis. It kinda ruins the idea of medusas, as they were designed to go for melee as well. (two-hex creature with great melee abilities) It's just that having ammo cart isn't exactly making sense either if town has only access to one shooter.

Phoenix4ever said:
It is not nonsense, it's my personal experience. But I have also done a few things myself like Animate Dead only being permanent at advanced level and CotUK only making Skeletons Warriors and of course there is no Galthran, but Ranloo instead.
I also don't play with spell research, so Animate Dead is sometimes hard to learn. But overall Necro always feels slow, both in combat and on the map, because they always carry those skels around.


Well, it would be fair to clarify if you're talking about your mod and not Hota. Despite there clearly being similarites with your mod and Hota, even the changes you mentioned and your unwillingness to use given game mechanics drastically change the current balance between towns.

Necro is still seen as the best town, as they're very consistant. You build the transformer day 1 and turn almost everything available to skeletons. Galthran is allowed in most templates, so with some luck, you can have access to around 200 skellies on turn one, but he isn't required to get good results. Vampire lords are still OP in single play, and can be good on MP if you manage to find 2 estates. In SP they can do their things alone in week 3, maybe even week 2. Animate dead allows you to do insane fights with just skeletons alone. And oh, the skellies don't slow you down, as they're never carried by your main when turn ends.

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 11, 2020 10:37 PM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 22:40, 11 Sep 2020.

Yeah guess I forget to mention that I was talking about HotA + my own mod.
Actually I want to "un-nerf" Necro again, but Animate Dead being permament from the start is kinda OP, especially with Thant.
CotUK making liches is completely game breaking.
Galthran getting the best stat bonusses of all creature specialists + starting with and making tons of skeletons is also OP.
Spell research just buffs Tower and nerfs Stronghold and Fortress, which is definitely a step in the wrong direction.
So it seems Necro is kinda stuck with this setup. They are not weak, but they are often slow.

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BTB
BTB


Known Hero
Moist & Creamy
posted September 12, 2020 12:02 AM

Galthran's little OP problem goes right out the window if you move away from scaling creature bonuses and embrace static ones, y'know

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted September 12, 2020 12:04 AM

Galthran's main problem is +1 speed and all stacks are skeletons.
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 12, 2020 02:15 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 02:16, 12 Sep 2020.

Quote:
Maybe you know lore better than me, but this isn't actually backed up by neither the manual or any of the necro hero bios. Therefore, it's hard to see why such material would have been used by the game desingers. Also, even if necromancers would have served as clerics, that doesn't necessary mean they would still be suitable as healers, as they've already found superior tactic - raising same troops over and over again from the dead - so there really isn't much use for healing anyway. (Cure cannot either be found from necro mage guild).

Gameplaywise the tent is making even less sense in the necropolis. Wights and Vampire lords are able to heal themselves, heroes have basically no way learn first aid, tier 7 has 200 hp max, and liches aren't very good target for healing either.


Read hero bios from H4 necromancers, it makes it pretty clear and they are in some cases the same people canonically.

Wights and Vampires are actually part of the healing theme so this continues to prove my case.

Bone Dragons are a very good target for healing, since they are perfect for attack and retreat. And the morale loss bonus.

In WoG versions, Healing Tent can revive creatures so this further enhances the theme.

And I think a whole map of undead was made with the idea that you cast Cure on your zombies (the spell was not provided from mage guild). It was a really good map (if very hard as well) and showed to me the concept works well. Zombies are a very good target for aid tent / first aid in game start as well.


***

+1 speed to skeletins isn't op, the formula to calculate bonuses from specialty for 1st level units + necromancy + skeleton converter = op
____________
https://www.moddb.com/mods/greatest-mod

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 12, 2020 07:34 AM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 07:52, 12 Sep 2020.

BTB said:
Galthran's little OP problem goes right out the window if you move away from scaling creature bonuses and embrace static ones, y'know

That is not a bad idea, something like +5 attack and +5 defense could work and it would balance all creature specialists. I seem to remember you add a damage bonus as well.
Unfortunately we still cannot add the speed bonus, unless you found a way?

There is also the possibility of lowering Skeleton Warriors stats and instead buff Zombies and Wraiths.
Let's have a look at the units attack and defense:
Skeleton Warrior: 6/6
Zombie: 5/5
Wraith: 7/7
Because Skeleton Warriors have such high stats for a level 1 unit, they get great bonuses, but if we instead turned Skeleton Warriors 4/4, Zombies 6/6 and Wraiths 8/8 we would probably see more balanced results and Galthran would'nt be that OP anymore.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted September 12, 2020 12:06 PM

NimoStar said:


Read hero bios from H4 necromancers, it makes it pretty clear and they are in some cases the same people canonically.


You sure you mean these? I also checked death knight bios just in case, but it I pretty much could only found tragic stories, but not connections between Clerics and necromancers. Also, this is Homm4 material, for me it's pretty obvious there were not any kind of real connections when homm3 was made. Just the fact it's extremely rare for hero classes for not having access to certain secondary skills, so a decision for not giving first to either necro hero class simply is intentional and a clear design choice, and not some sort of weard mistake.

NimoStar said:

Wights and Vampires are actually part of the healing theme so this continues to prove my case.


I'm afraid that's not the case, unless you're able to prove how first aid serves any real benefit for these two creatures gameplaywise.

Even thematicially we're still very far from the original "bandaging and taking care of the wounded"-theme the first aid (tent) represents. For example vampires are simply refreshing themselves from eating their victims body. That's pretty much as far one can get from the classic aspect of healing.

NimoStar said:

Bone Dragons are a very good target for healing, since they are perfect for attack and retreat. And the morale loss bonus.


The healing is far more usefull for creatures that are sticking in the heat for battle, with better HP and defence. For hit and running, if the player is concerned about the HP of the dragons, they can simply take the retalation off with another creature. For battles that you're kiting your enemies endlessly, your tent will certainly be destroyed sooner than later. To some extend, ghost dragons can do best when they're even used as supportive one-stacks. By used this way, their presence in beginning can already provide the -1 morale effect, plus they have multiple chances of inflicting aging, and the speed advatage they provide cannot be taken away by using one big hit.

Phoenix4ever said:
BTB said:
Galthran's little OP problem goes right out the window if you move away from scaling creature bonuses and embrace static ones, y'know

That is not a bad idea, something like +5 attack and +5 defense could work and it would balance all creature specialists.


I thought there was an intention to nerf Galthran, not make him even stronger. Such static bonus would be an insane buff for him.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted September 12, 2020 12:09 PM

Exactly. Besides the insane +1 speed and all skeleton stacks, he gets a static bonus for players to do a pretty neat early push with the skeletons.
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 12, 2020 01:31 PM

Yeah Galthran will probably always be OP, I guess it's best to leave him out.

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BTB
BTB


Known Hero
Moist & Creamy
posted September 12, 2020 02:03 PM

Phoenix4ever said:
BTB said:
Galthran's little OP problem goes right out the window if you move away from scaling creature bonuses and embrace static ones, y'know

That is not a bad idea, something like +5 attack and +5 defense could work and it would balance all creature specialists. I seem to remember you add a damage bonus as well.


I initially went with +3 ATK/DEF and a damage bonus dependent on tier. I eventually just settled for +6 ATK/DEF across the board/

Phoenix4ever said:

Unfortunately we still cannot add the speed bonus, unless you found a way?


That one has been pretty thoroughly busted, I'm afraid.

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errollw4821
errollw4821

Bad-mannered
Tavern Dweller
posted September 17, 2020 01:41 PM - penalty applied by Galaad on 17 Sep 2020.

They can be switched or swapped. high risk merchant solutions

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Fanofheroes
Fanofheroes


Known Hero
posted September 29, 2020 12:47 PM

Maybe the game designers inetended to have blacksmiths make opposite war machines to encourage the conquest of other towns. Giving them an added bonus besides getting what spells they may have.

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BTB
BTB


Known Hero
Moist & Creamy
posted September 29, 2020 02:34 PM

Well, yes, the intention was clear. First Aid Tents for Necropolis was still a mistake, any way you want to look at it.

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pumma
pumma


Hired Hero
posted October 11, 2020 02:22 PM

BTB said:
Well, yes, the intention was clear. First Aid Tents for Necropolis was still a mistake, any way you want to look at it.


Not exactly. Some people think that Heroes 3 is Heroes 2 with Magic Schools but it is way more. In fact we have two classes per town for the first time in the series. In Heroes 1 we have 2 might factions (1 good and 1 evil) and two magic factions (1 good and 1 evil) But good and evil was more flavour than focus. In Heroes 2 were added 2 magic factions and the focus was shifted from might vs. magic to good vs. evil. In Heroes 3 was added second class per town or more appropriately secondary class. So Castle main class is Knight and therefore the ballista. The same is with the Necropolis - the main class is the Necromancer (magic class) that's why First Aid Tent. The Death Knight and the Cleric are secondary classes. Some of the secondary classes are even hybrid for example - the Alchemist and the Battle Mage.

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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
posted October 11, 2020 03:43 PM

Well, Heroes 3 Necro blacksmith seems to run blood stream, which is used to heal/feed vampires.
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