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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Redundant morale and luck
Thread: Redundant morale and luck This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT»
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted March 10, 2020 08:37 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 09:01, 10 Mar 2020.

Redundant morale and luck

I just had an idea about reducing the amount of redundant morale and luck in Heroes 3.
But first let us take a look at Castle and their morale:
* If all creatures are of same alignment you start with +1 morale.
* All knights have Leadership, which will eventually give +3.
* Angels adds +1.
* The Tavern in town adds +1.
* Brotherhood of the Sword adds +2.
* Castle's grail adds +2.
So all that adds up to +10, while the maximum is +3.

Now let's take a look at Rampart and their luck:
* Standard luck is 0
* The Luck skill, which 2 Rampart heroes start with, will eventually add +3.
* If you have Melodia her special will add +3.
* Fountain of Fortune adds +2.
* Rampart's grail adds +2.
So that is also a potential +10 luck, while the maximum is +3.

Now my idea is that all knights instead start with Luck and both Ufretin and Melodia instead starts with Leadership, that way there won't be so much wasted morale and luck.
I suppose it would be a buff for both Castle and Rampart, but it's just painful with all that wasted morale and luck.
Alternatively the cap should just be increased to +6, in fact that is properly the best solution.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted March 10, 2020 10:02 AM

Two wrongs don't make a right. The issue is with the luck/morale availability and low cap, not with starting skills. If the cap was at 5, perhaps there would be no issue, esp with the introduction of negative luck/morale arties in hota.
____________
Juoksentelisinkohan?

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted March 10, 2020 10:55 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 11:06, 10 Mar 2020.

I agree, but as far as I know there is no real easy way to increase the cap, at least not if it's also to be showed graphically correct.

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Dj
Dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted March 10, 2020 11:06 AM

Imo just remove them as hero skills and put them as creature abilities and artifact bonuses for a specific creature (ogre axe - attack + luck for ogre) because luck is basically ‘ciritical damage’ from other games. Luck in heroes 3 is just its primitive form.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted March 10, 2020 11:08 AM

Dj said:
Imo just remove them as hero skills

That's also an idea.

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Baronus
Baronus


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 10, 2020 11:20 AM

Generally I think that 3 points luck/morale cap is bad. It should be 99 cap as other stats and morale and luck should be as normal statistics and working in counterattack too. So not 4 primary skills but 6. And map boosters should be too.
attack/deffence
wisdom/power
morale/luck
It shoukd be done in future heroes.

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Dj
Dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted March 10, 2020 12:22 PM

If 1 skill in luck/morale represents approx 1% chance of luck/morale then not only it would grow so slowly that it would be pointless to raise them, but it would also nerf the other skills because it would embiggen the skill pool. By level 50 which you would have almost 8 skills in each. That means 8% luck and morale and 8 skills in att def power know (without artifacts). It would probably slow the game down by a lot and that depends on how the community would want. I would prefer a slower game if other mechanics were to be added. Things you could do while you wait for the other players to do their turn.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted March 10, 2020 12:37 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 17:58, 10 Mar 2020.

99 would definitely be too much, but maybe 6 or even 10. I would prefer 6 personally, that is 25% chance at +6 and 25% chance at -3.

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Baronus
Baronus


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 10, 2020 03:45 PM

All is ok. 24 gives 100% to second hit all unit has 2 actions 48 gives 3 strikes. 72 4 strikes and 96 5 strikes! Its possible. Usually you finish about 20-25 lvl so only two strikes. Gamplay would be faster not slower! But at the end of game.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted March 10, 2020 04:59 PM

Mass Sorrow and Misfortune is only -2, also how often does anyone cast those...

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 10, 2020 06:15 PM

phoenix4ever said:
Mass Sorrow and Misfortune is only -2, also how often does anyone cast those...


I only cast them when they're the only option I have and the enemy has neutral luck/morale, and only in HotA, since there's negative luck.

Also, why is sorrow so OP in H5, at least against AI (including neutral stacks)? You can make 5 turns pass for the enemy by just casting Sorrow and then resurrect all of your troops.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted March 10, 2020 06:36 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 18:37, 10 Mar 2020.

Thank you for proving my point FirePaladin, Sorrow and Misfortune are rare in Heroes 3.
I mean there are skills that increases morale and luck, artifacts, town buildings, grails, hero specialties, map objects and angels, it's like way too much for a +3 cap.
HotA was brilliant with introducing negative morale and luck artifacts and making negative luck actually work, but it's still not enough.
Perhaps there should have been two skills that lowers enemy morale or luck or Leadership and Luck skill should not have been a thing at all.
Or again just make a +6 to -3 cap.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 10, 2020 07:20 PM

phoenix4ever said:
Thank you for proving my point FirePaladin, Sorrow and Misfortune are rare in Heroes 3.
I mean there are skills that increases morale and luck, artifacts, town buildings, grails, hero specialties, map objects and angels, it's like way too much for a +3 cap.
HotA was brilliant with introducing negative morale and luck artifacts and making negative luck actually work, but it's still not enough.
Perhaps there should have been two skills that lowers enemy morale or luck or Leadership and Luck skill should not have been a thing at all.
Or again just make a +6 to -3 cap.


Yeah, I know. In HotA you can also have -3 luck to enemy by just getting 2 relatively common artifacts, which is pretty neat (especially good against neutrals).

I think the cap should be something like +6/-3 or -6 too, just like in later installments.

The problem is, such a skill would make clearing neutral stacks way easier, since they usually tend to have neutral morale.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted March 10, 2020 07:24 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 19:25, 10 Mar 2020.

-6 would be 50% chance to freeze, which is probably too much. The problem is not really the lower cap, rather the higher cap.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 10, 2020 08:02 PM

phoenix4ever said:
-6 would be 50% chance to freeze, which is probably too much. The problem is not really the lower cap, rather the higher cap.


That's probably why Sorrow in H5 was so OP. Also, with raising the cap, will the chances for Morale or Luck be higher? I mean, if now with +3 Morale we have 50% chance (not the actual number, it's just for the example), will we still have 50% with +6?

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Baronus
Baronus


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 10, 2020 09:27 PM

It maybe too system that your morale and luck is corrected by enemy morale. So if enemy has 15 and you 20 Its only +5 for you! In this case very big values would be reduced. Collecting luck and morale as attack defence power wisdom is very good idea! We have more options for hero.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 10, 2020 09:39 PM

Baronus said:
It maybe too system that your morale and luck is corrected by enemy morale. So if enemy has 15 and you 20 Its only +5 for you! In this case very big values would be reduced. Collecting luck and morale as attack defence power wisdom is very good idea! We have more options for hero.


True, but that could also result in total imbalance, like having a main hero with 10 morale and luck fighting against someone with 30 morale and luck (even 10 more is enough)! This would make the enemy have morale and luck almost always, being able to win even with a way smaller army.
Another reason why this won't be good is because it just simply changes the core mechanics. +6 cap to Morale and Luck is ok, it's still the same mechanics, but them to be changed into another "primary" stat is a bit too much. For WoG, this would be acceptable as a mod that can be turned on/off, but not for HotA. And let's not forget, neutral stacks usually have neutral morale, so 0.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted March 10, 2020 11:31 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 23:51, 10 Mar 2020.

@FirePaladin In Heroes 3 currently +3 is 12,5% chance and -3 is 25% chance, but I don't propose we mess with these values, just expand up to +6, which would also be 25% chance. Seems very fair to me and will make Leadership, Luck and Fortune specialty more useful and then Melodia can finally use her specialty. Hurray!

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Famous Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted March 11, 2020 12:11 AM

phoenix4ever said:
@FirePaladin In Heroes 3 currently +3 is 12,5% chance and -3 is 25% chance, but I don't propose we mess with these values, just expand up to +6, which would also be 25% chance. Seems very fair to me and will make Leadership, Luck and Fortune specialty more useful and then Melodia can finally use her specialty. Hurray!


If those are the chances, then I'd say it's pretty ok.

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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted March 11, 2020 06:36 AM
Edited by dj at 06:38, 11 Mar 2020.

Baronus said:
Generally I think that 3 points luck/morale cap is bad. It should be 99 cap as other stats and morale and luck should be as normal statistics and working in counterattack too. So not 4 primary skills but 6. And map boosters should be too.
attack/deffence
wisdom/power
morale/luck
It shoukd be done in future heroes.



If you want to make morale/luck as a primary skill and make it worth giving up on att/def know/pow points in favor of morale/luck and diminish the impact of the classic primary skills, i propose a combination of morale/luck with secondary skills.


                     Luck                        Morale
       
Offence    % chance of double damage % chance to act again
Armourer    % chance to block damage % chance to counter again
Archery    % chance of double damage % chance to double shoot same
                                                       target
Diplomacy   % chance of monsters         % chance of smaller joining
                 joining you                           fee

Estates     % chance to produce special %chance to produce higher
                 resource                              number of resources

Sorcery    %chance of double spell     %chance to cast again
                 damage

and the list may go on...


But for that, a lot of secondary skill revamp should be done. Why on earth are pathfinding, logistics, scouting and navigation divided? make them as 1. Artilery, balistics, first aid = 1 and you have more space for other new useful skills. Or even total revamp of skills system.



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