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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Another Might and Magic lore thread
Thread: Another Might and Magic lore thread This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted April 29, 2020 01:22 AM bonus applied by Maurice on 11 May 2020.
Edited by dj at 01:30, 29 Apr 2020.

Another Might and Magic lore thread

Introduction to Might and Magic cosmology


There is no doubt about the complexity of the game’s universe. We see three different levels of conflicts:
- Micro conflicts: at the level of every individual character (internal) and conflicts between characters
- medium conflicts: at the level of nations, wars, earthly threats
- macro conflicts: at the level of cosmos, wars between universal forces and Gods.

This saga has a very well thought universe. Incomplete, yes, but not randomly made. It has a purpose and every installment was designed to show something.


Was Heroes of Might and Magic IV a result of abandoning Forge and the developers wanted to 'restart' the series or was the story really intended to happen the way it did anyway?

From the very beginning, we observe the story of a few surviving nations who urgently teleported to another planet. The plot takes place a few decades later, until they settled down and started to rebuild their kingdoms. Lysander fought Wilson for the human kingdom, Gauldoth raised the kingdom of the undead. So everything takes roughly 10-20 years.

Meanwhile, they interacted with the planet already. We see the existence of Shrines, whose existence cannot be passed by. These are signs, Easter eggs, which can be found all over the game. We see shrines of each school of magic: Life, Order, Nature, Death, Chaos, Might. It seems that these magic schools govern the rules of Axeoth, unlike on Enroth where were only the basic four elemental schools: Air, Earth, Fire, Water, which are present on Axeoth too, but on an inferior level on the hierarchy of universal forces.

The Prophecy and Why was Enroth destroyed?

There are a few plot points that have not been explained in the game (HoMM 3 & 4 at least, please correct me  anywhere along the discussion as I have not played any other game besides of these two and information from the other games might change my theories). One of them is ‘the prophecy’ that keeps on being mentioned.

Let’s see the following presentation quote that I have found very interesting:

‘Some prophecies of doom do come true. Escape the flames licking at your back and jump quickly through a portal into another world, for only the bold will be allowed to live. Embrace a wondrous new land and uncover its ancient mysteries. Battle its deadly creatures and explore a forgotten past. Here lie gods who have been silent all too long. Here lies a realm that can only be claimed by the strong, the crafty or the wise. Here lies a realm awaiting a bold conqueror!’

Tarnum knew about this prophecy and warned Gelu not to fight against Kilgor, but he ignored his warning. Was Gelu too mad or did he learn secrets of the universe while holding the powerful artifact, Armageddon’s Blade, made by the Kreegans? Why did he become the antagonist who destroyed an entire world all of a sudden? Unless he did not become one. Nonetheless, the world was destroyed.


‘Here lie gods who have been silent all too long’ – Here, it talks about any type of gods, not ‘The Gods’ nor ‘Gods’. These gods are being talked about like a simple race with godly powers. We see this mention of ‘gods’ with low case ‘g’ in the Fountain of Strength: ‘It is told that a Barbarian war god once washed his wounds in this fountain. Ever since, any who drink its cool water gains a temporary increase to the damage they do in combat.’
But we also have mentions of Gods, with capital ‘g’, which puts Gods and gods into two different categories.

Category A of Gods:

Life VS Death – two universal forces which perpetuate the universe. One God of Life and one God of Death, waging an eternal war against one another across the entire universe. Among them can be found two more independent universal forces:

Order VS Chaos – same here: 1 God of Order VS 1 God of Chaos; now, we do not have enough information about these Gods, but we can simply look at the game details.





The above schema has been created with the help of the new feature in HoMM 4, the two additional buildings that can be build next to the Mage Guilds.
- In Haven/Life we can build the Order of Nature and Order of Enchantment
- In Academy/Order we can build Necromantic Library and Clerical Library
- In Necropolis/Death we can build Annex of Wizardry and Chaos Annex
- In Asylum/Chaos we can build Hall of the Dead and Witch’s Hall
- In Preserve/Nature we can build Conservatory of Life and Conservatory of Chaos

But where does Might stand in the relationship between these forces? If Death opposes Life and Chaos opposes Order, does Nature oppose Might? Why is the ‘Barbarian war god’ spelled with low case ‘g’?

I hope that everything makes sense. If you want, I will make more. Next post, we will talk more closely about the four opposing Gods and take a look at these two other forces of this universe, Nature and Might, and see how they might relate. Feel free to talk, correct my grammar, come with new ideas, back up or even counter my theory as I saw some lore enthusiasts here and I wanted to break the ice and post something. Let’s make this quarantine more fun, lore freakz.


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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted April 29, 2020 05:38 PM

Funny, that’s about the same differentiation that they use in Magic: The Gathering. I suspect a form of copy-cat action when determining nation specifics .
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted May 02, 2020 03:45 AM
Edited by dj at 03:50, 02 May 2020.

Maurice said:
Funny, that’s about the same differentiation that they use in Magic: The Gathering. I suspect a form of copy-cat action when determining nation specifics .



I looked it up and, yes, on some degree they are similar. The difference is that White represents Light and Order at the same time and Blue represents intellect, mana etc. With no mention of a 6th color (only 5 colors), that is, Might.
But these are standard means of differentiating nations in games anyway. There’s Life and Death in every story so the game MTG did not invent these concepts. Like you cannot accuse of stealing or copying any game which uses Air, Earth, Fire and Water as magic system.


Introduction to Might and Magic cosmology Part 2

Tier B gods

Apart from the higher Gods, we see the existence of lesser gods. We know that the Barbarian war gods are native to each planet. We saw that for Axeoth and the mere existence of the barbarian nations on Enroth implies the fact that there is at least one on Erathia too. The same thing we can say about the Nature gods. The fauna and the flora differ from planet to planet. We can call it a ‘fingerprint’, an identity for the given planet. On Enroth we have dendroids as soldiers of nature, on Axeoth we have Waspworts.

Sure, you can say: ‘That’s what the elves managed to call as allies on this side of Axeoth, there must be dendroids on other continents, who might have not allied with the elves or who maybe are asleep and too early to side with etc.’, but the developers could have easily used dendroids anyway, as survivors who came through the portals or found by the elves who started to synergize with the local forests. I bet this was made on purpose: to show that each planet has its own guardians and protectors, each one representing a god of Nature.
The Waspworts and the Mantis say a lot about the flora and the fauna of Axeoth: that it is raw, wild and acidic, barely touched by the influence of external races.

Making a parenthesis here, external races (extraterestrials) are the humanoid and sentient races (humans, elves, gnomes, dwarves, hobbits, leprechauns, orcs, goblins etc.) which can be found on planes like CRON ( Central Research Observational Nacelle) and VARNs (Vehicular Astropod Research Nacelle), whose names speak for themselves and which were created by the Gods or simply by interstellar races to make experiments with creating different humanoid/sentient beings and seed planets with them. Enroth and Axeoth are two of them, but on different intervals. Axeoth looks like was seeded later or life developed slower due to a stronger Nature. That’s why we have a raid called VARN (a pyramid, Bastion would have been a great opportunity to narrate this into HoMM 3) in Might and Magic VI on Enroth (the continent) because it’s the SPACESHIP (or seed) which crashed on Enroth with humanoid beings. That’s how humans, elves, orcs, dwarves started living on the planet.
That was the moment when the gods of Nature and Might were disturbed with corruption.

So, if in a relationship schema between these 6 forces of the universe Life opposes Death and Order opposes Chaos, then Nature stands at the opposite side of Might, but as complementary forces, allies, brothers and sisters.




Nature, the child of Life and Chaos and Might, the child of Order and Death

We see in the game that Nature magic can be aligned with Life and Chaos. I called it their ‘child’ because Nature is, conceptually, is not as powerful as the other four. Both Nature and Might are governed by the cycle of Life and Death, bowed to the rules of Order and Chaos, but they can harness the power of their superior Gods.

If Might is at the other end of Nature, then its place falls between Order and Death and it would make sense. Might is the rebelled child of Order and Death. Where do we see an example of a supposed-to-be magic hero who went might, ‘the Death of Order’? In Yog, a wizard (Order) who became a barbarian (Might). Even though his father was a barbarian, his fate could have led him to other kingdoms. He could have been a knight, a pirate, an archer.

Now, let’s get back to the prophecy.

‘The Dream
I had a dream last night for the first time in over eight hundred years, and I am afraid my dream might be true…
In a dark tow er , floating in the nothingness at the end of time, Fat e li v es . She is an enigma. She has the eyes of an elder who has seen too much, the voluptuous body of a woman grown, and the innocent smile of a happy child. She is alone. No man, elf, demon or god survi v ed whatever calamity brought about the end of ever y t h i n g .
Fate gets up from the dinner table where there is only a single chair , and ascends a small staircase that will take her to the top of the tower. Her feet are bare against the cold stone, and I shiver, for unforgiving rock is all that her flesh has ever known.
She is stunningly beautiful, I decide, although I cannot determine what she is wearing because her image shimmers before me.
Finally, she reaches her destination – a simple room with a huge, glass loom and a stool. She stares at the loom solemnly. She hesitates. But Fate knows she cannot wait forever and sits at the chair.
Methodically, she chooses a ball of black yarn from a bag at her feet and she frowns. She threads it into the loom, and then selects another ball. This one is purple, and her frown deepens. A tear forms in one eye as she threads it into the loom as well.
One by one, she chooses more yarn and attaches it to the loom. Next blue, then red, then green, and finally orange.
Then her hands work furiously, pulling and twisting and spinning, as she begins weaving a tapestry. I desperately want to see the images formed by her craft, but my vision blurs every time I try. So I look at her face instead, and notice her single tear has become many.
Fate doesn’t want to weave this pattern, but she continues anyway. It is her destiny – her purpose…
And that is how it ends.
I am not a genie prone to premonitions, but I find it difficult to believe this was only a dream. Please, pray that I am wrong!
– Solymr ibn Wali Barad’

The prophecy is stopping the process of corrupting the gods of Nature and Might by the cycle of Life/Death and laws of Order/Chaos. These two forces are being dragged into the macro-conflicts of the cosmos and they should not. They should lie dormant and peacefully on each of their planets and let the flora and fauna thrive.

The prophecy is the Armageddon, the event that ended the cycle and Gelu and Kilgor fulfilled it. They are the saviors and heroes of Nature and Might. See how Gelu is the champion of Nature and Kilgor is the champion of Might. This is not by chance, this is calculated. This is the plan of the Nature god and the Might god of Enroth to break the fate. They saw the corruption of Life/Death and Order/Chaos and they needed to wipe out their home as it was too late for them. And now it’s Axeoth’s turn to deal with this fate.

Next time, I ll talk more closely about the events of the Armageddon.


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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted May 11, 2020 11:42 AM
Edited by dj at 12:00, 11 May 2020.

How it all started on Enroth

We have two sources that tell us the background of the planet Erathia.
First, it is the lore text from Heroes of Might and Magic I Game Manual, where Lord Morglin Ironfist sends letters to his ruler, King Ragnar from VARN-4, after he has passed through a ‘mysterious gate’ found on Varnal Hills.

‘It has been thirty days since I crossed through the mysterious gate which opened in the Varnal Hills and thus found myself in this strange and uncharted land.’

Note: Varnal Hills – etymology from V.A.R.N. (Vehicular Astropod Research Nacelle)

Lord Ironfist narrates everything that he has found on that planet and everything that he builds in his king’s name. On short, he found beasts and barbarians who are native on Erathia and, surprisingly, other humans, elves and magic users (Wizards).

As to the management of my barony, I felt it important to build the population of the realm first. Therefore, I set out to construct many different dwellings to bring under my banner a great host. With the building of a brick house mighty ogres came to live in the valley. When I commanded that a bridge be placed over the River Morglin, I returned there the next day to find a troll having taken up residence beneath it. As each of these creatures came I presented them with parchments to sign, recognizing me as their liege, which they gladly did. Wolves are always worthy allies and they can scent trouble from afar, therefore I commanded that dens be made. The following day massive, intelligent beasts came out of the woods and offered onto me their service. Next I sought men of skill. The peasants had spoken of wizards and such many times. With the digging of a well, to provide cooling spring water for the tempering of steel, a blacksmith and then a rank of pikemen came into my service. A field was then cleared and the grass cut short. Target butts were set up and archers appeared to offer their services. A tavern near the bridge was built and from within its rooms swordsmen drink their fill and have fun bloodying each other as they argue about dice and mates. There are more plans afoot here as well, my lord. Even now I am building a most curious structure, tiny houses set up in the trees to rally the fairy sprites to my side. Cottages near the side of the mountains are being hewn of stone so that dwarves will serve me, while in the woods I have been advised to set up targets so that elven archers may come to try their sport. Once the elves and dwarves serve me, I am told that they will help to make such things as great stone circles for the pleasure of druids, fenced meadows for unicorns and fearful red towers for the mighty phoenix.
60

Already I have created a dwelling place for users of magic and one is now in my service.

- Heroes of Might and Magic I Game Manual




Why did he find humans, elves and wizards on Enroth?

We find out later, in Might and Magic VI: Mandate of Heaven that there is a dungeon called Tomb of VARN, which looks like a pyramid and it is actually a spaceship which contained a set of recurring races (elves, gnomes, humans, orcs; source: Might and Magic III: Isles of Terra Game Manual) and presumably crashed on Erathia and settled down there before Lord Ironfist teleported through the gate.

Note that Tomb of VARN is different from VARN-4, the huge space body/plane created by the Ancients on which the events of Might and Magic I take place.




Good VS Evil VS Neutral

In Heroes of Might and Magic III we have three alignments:

The ‘good’ alliance:
Castle – humans
Rampart – elves and dwarves
Towers – wizards (still humans)

The ‘evil’ alliance:
Inferno – kreegans (which is a faction, not a race; we see a multitude of kreegan races)
Necropolis – undead (all types of races who are dead and raised as unliving)
Dungeon – humans who enslaved native races of Erathia or toyed with mutant experiments

The neutrals – which are not an alliance per se; they are the oppressed, the enslaved, or the protectors of the planet
Stronghold – orcs, who are regarded as dumber in the Might and Magic I Game Manual, got along with the native humanoid races (Goblin, Trolls, Cyclops, Ogres) which are also regarded as inferior (dumb) and beasts. – Where have we seen the same set of different humanoid races? A: Inferno

Fun fact: Orcs/Half-Orcs were supposed to have human-like faces and not pig faces. In the Might and Magic games that took place before Heroes of Might and Magic III and IV they are represented with human faces and elf ears, a bit dumb and very resistant to magic.
Fortress: humans who allied with two native races of Erathia: Lizardmen and Gnolls (and beasts)
Conflux: Elementals who dwell in the surrounding planes of Erathia, ready to step in and protect the planet
Forge: ‘The Heavenly Forge’ created by the Ancients and discovered by the adventurers. While the official alignment of the Forge was evil, it could have been good as well, depending on the ending of the story of MM 6 (good or evil). In good hands, it could have been good sided, hence the presence of the naga tanks and humans in the line-up
Cove: pirates allied with Nix (Water Lizardmen) and beasts of the ocean

We know where the humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes (Hobbits) and orcs come from. The rest of the races are either native on Erathia or come from the elemental planes (Genies, Oceanids) or are created by warlocks (Beholders), Angels are robots, but what are the Kreegans? They are the only races that have no exact information about them. But we can conclude about them and their whereabouts from their actions and from other’s testimonies.



The Kreegans

The Kreegans are a faction and not a race. They are ruled by Lucifer Kreegan III, therefore they are named by the current ruling bloodline.
The faction consists of more races: Imp (smaller demons), Magog (magical demons), Horned Demons (fighting demons), Pit Lords (higher class of demons) and Arch Devils (the highest hierarchy of demons).

(See the parallel with Stronghold here? Different races of green skin with different roles to which Troll can be added)

The surprising element in the line-up is the Efreet, who are resident of the Elemental Plane of Fire, weird, right? One of the Elemental protectors of Erathia and/or other planets. (We still do not know whether there is a set of Elemental Planes for each planet or if there is one set of Elemental Planes guarding all planets).

The first thing that we can conclude is that they are a red skin race native to a long distant planet (in time and space) presumably destroyed, seeking another planet to live in or to wage war against something or someone.




The appearance of the Kreegans troughtout the universe

The first chronological appearance of the Kreegans was in the Conquest of the Underworld and The Fiery Moon, two different worlds from Erathia, which are found in its vicinity.

Note: Tarnum finds a Stronghold city when he lands on the Fiery Moon (native races) and the celestial body looks scorched (looking a lot like a post-Armageddon place) and he steps in and cures the planet

But the real appearance of the Kreegans on Enroth takes place in Might and Magic VI: The Mandate of Heaven and Heroes of Might and Magic III: The Restoration of Erathia which are two consecutive games in the chronological order. Events which happen right after Heroes of Might and Magic I and Heroes of Might and Magic II.

There is a low chance that the Kreegans arrived on Enroth by coincidence right after Morglin Ironfist’s arrival and after the crash of VARN (VARN Tomb), although we have no clue when it crashed, so let’s stick with the event of Ironfist’s arrival.

The Kreegans also play a very important role in the setting. They unearth the Armageddon’s blade same vault as the Heavenly Forge artifact
(Which makes you wonder why they chose the Armageddon’s Blade or why only THAT blade and not both artifacts or why didn t they unearth all artifacts from the Vault. Probably because each artifact has been created with a purpose and role and this strengthens my theory that the blade was created to bring destruction of the planet in case of corruption)

They are the reason why Gelu, the Doombringer, held the blade which makes me think if it was not actually their plan all along? Their plan to purge the planet of the corruption of the recurring races, of the influence of the Ancients, of the influence of Life, Death, Order and Chaos.





The true protectors of Enroth

So here come my two theories about the Kreegans that do not exclude each other and very less likely that none of them are true. At least one is true.


Theory number 1:

The Kreegans hunt the recurring races. The reason? They protect Enroth and the other planets from corruption of infestation. The original planet of the Kreegans was probably infested by the recurring races and  they swore to eliminate the ‘pests’ and protect all planets from them. The Efreet even allied with them to support their cause.
I am calling the recurring races ‘pests’ because they exploit each planet until it is destroyed. For example, the humans waged war against the elves for 100 years, The Timber Wars, where elves protected the forests and the humans tried to take over the forests in order to exploit them. So actually humans and elves are not as brotherly as we think They only allied to each other in the face of a common enemy.


Theory number 2 A:

The Kreegans were created by the Ancients to help them fix whenever their experiments get out of their laboratories (VARN and CRON). That is why they knew about the Vault of the Ancients as the location of the Armageddon's Blade.

The teleportation of Morglin Ironfist was probably not ‘according to the plan’. He left VARN by a mere mistake and the Kreegans stepped in to fix the issue.

Theory number 2 B:

The Kreegans were created by another Pantheon of Ancients, probably opposing our known Ancients in order to wage war against them. The Other Pantheon of Ancients probably created their own VARN AND CRON planes where the Kreegans reside.




Why do we call the Kreegans evil? Because they look like demons which are not actually demons? Keep in mind that the games were always narrated from the perspective of the recurring races (humans, elves, gnomes, dwarves, orcs – main characters in all installments), it is obvious that they are always the ‘good’ ones. The undead are in the same boat as the Kreegans, yet we see examples that show us the otherwise from the minor/internal conflicts, which Heroes of Might and Magic IV excelled at (except you, Winds of War). The narration focused mainly on the characters and their thoughts. We find out that the Necropolis (undead and Kreegans) are not so evil after all and they are exceptions from the rule (the Ancients’ rule), they are out of the cycle and they are forgiving and …good.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted May 11, 2020 11:52 AM
Edited by FirePaladin at 11:54, 11 May 2020.

The Efreet actually got tired of the Kreegans after a while. Only the Reckoning saved them in that chaos from their contract. So they weren't fighting for a just cause. The Efreet allied with them just because they could be able to burn and burn things (again, showed in H4).

And in their protection they actually burned entire planets to a crisp from which they could take/suck power (said in some interview or something. Probably on fandom). Hooray!
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted May 11, 2020 11:57 AM
Edited by dj at 12:00, 11 May 2020.

The Efreet got tired of the Kreegans because they kept on failing on their plan (to fight the recurring races). The cause lasted for milennia. Even if they succeded on Enroth, they failed on Axeoth.

And whom did the Efreet ally with? Not with the 'good' alignment, but with the Chaos faction. Now you can say that they want to burn things down. They got tired of joining a failing cause or a hard-to-achieve cause.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted May 11, 2020 12:06 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 12:08, 11 May 2020.

dj said:
The Efreet got tired of the Kreegans because they kept on failing on their plan to fight the recurring races. The cause lasted for milennia. Even if they succeded on Enroth, they failed on Axeoth.

And whom did the Efreet ally with? Not with the 'good' alignment, but with the Chaos faction. Now you can say that they want to burn things down. They got tired of joining a failing cause or a hard-to-achieve cause.


That's true tho.

And let's be honest, from all the dialogues and such it's clear the Kreegans aren't a really a nice race. Even if they had a "noble cause!" at first, they lost it long ago. And even so, who says they aren't legit demons? After all, devs can say stuff just to let us do the thinking. I would have done the same thing. And most Might and Magic lore is also similar to the ancient religions thousands of years back, with the good, technologically advanced "gods" in the skies who created humans and Earth and who fought against the evil "entities/gods". There are plenty of stuff that hint at that.

Back on the tracks, what would the Kreegans want to achieve? Killing trillions of living beings and scorching thousands, or even millions of planets for a good cause? That qualifies them to "evil", even if they think it's the right thing to do.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted May 11, 2020 12:44 PM

Nice thread! Linking it to the main lore thread and suggesting a +QP.
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Baronus
Baronus


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 11, 2020 07:25 PM

Might and nature are nearly the same!
Opositions:
Life -- death Life is is former KB/H forrest faction with elves vs. necro
Order--chaos, Order is mechanised civilisation which can be mages with constructs golems vs. warlocks
Nature--technology (nature may be fortress, tech. maybe something like forge but not so scifi!!!).
Might v-- magic eg. barbarians vs conflux
Light-- dark, angels,clerics etc. Erathia contra kreegans or other demons...
Etc. So we can have a lot of factions

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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted May 16, 2020 11:36 AM

[quote ]

That's true tho.

And let's be honest, from all the dialogues and such it's clear the Kreegans aren't a really a nice race. Even if they had a "noble cause!" at first, they lost it long ago. And even so, who says they aren't legit demons? After all, devs can say stuff just to let us do the thinking. I would have done the same thing. And most Might and Magic lore is also similar to the ancient religions thousands of years back, with the good, technologically advanced "gods" in the skies who created humans and Earth and who fought against the evil "entities/gods". There are plenty of stuff that hint at that.


They are legit demons, no one contested that, but they are not the usual underworld/inferno christian demons depicted in universal literature. If there are alien demons in any literary work (forgive me if im wrong) they are either recent or none at all. At that time, when HoMM 3 was reselased, the concept of alien demon was still an innovation. Especially in Gaming Literature. And this was years before any other game, again, I might be wrong because I dont know the exact dates when each installment of warcraft, might and magic and warhammer sagas. These three seems to compete for the first one to use the concept of 'alien demons'

The devs also said in an interview that everything they did in HoMM 4 was actually something very rushed and with little to no communication with the design team and that's why there are gaps and unusual differences between HoMM3 and HoMM4 common creatures...so this statement kind of ruins all the pages i have written above..entirely.

This statement also seems odd to me...why wouldnt the dev team try to communicate closely and efectively with the design team? It doesnt make sense...and what doesnt make sense, it usually isnt true.

Quote:
Back on the tracks, what would the Kreegans want to achieve? Killing trillions of living beings and scorching thousands, or even millions of planets for a good cause? That qualifies them to "evil", even if they think it's the right thing to do.




Life as a slave or Death as eliberation?



You might see the Death as the antagonist there, but we see that Death was only the misunderstood, the oppresed, the outcast. And they had to fight back, to fight for their rights. They looked unusual, dead, decaying, stinking, eating flesh of animals. All these things are the perfect formula for misunderstanding and turning them into the bad guys.

But what Death really is, it's counterintuitive. It's the eliberation from the enslavement of Life (and Order). Yes, Life is all about warmness, healing and living but, Life is actually a power that enslaves the recurring races (human, dwarf, elf, orc, gnome) and makes experiments with them and their lives. And not just that, they are 'leaked' on normal planets like Axeoth and Enroth and they destroy their fauna and flora. Isn't that evil? The Kreegans only purge the universe of this 'good evil' and what do you do with a rotten/corrupted tomato in a full sack of tomatoes? You throw it away to not corrupt further. That is what the 'evil good' does.

And it is no coincidence that the Kreegans allied with the Undead in Heroes of Might and MAgic IV.



God as a status[i/]


Literally after writing all of this, I accidentally found the Gods of Axeoth page on Might and Magic Wiki. Yes, they are of Life, Order, Death, Chaos, but the odd thing about them is that they were simply...humans. In their appearence they look like simple humanoids. And i am going to talk about this in the next posts.



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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


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posted May 16, 2020 11:44 AM
Edited by FirePaladin at 11:54, 16 May 2020.

And at the same time they too destroy the fauna and flora (at least the Kreegans). So they achieve kinda nothing in the end, only one more empty planet from which to suck the energy for themselves.

The ancient civilizations described evil "outer gods", which are similar to demons, and "great-winged beings from the sky (space) which could teleport/travel between worlds", similar to Angels (they also described golden flying things with extremely powerful armament, like ships). And in Christian religion, we never get confirmation if demons are aliens or not, so we can't say they aren't either.

Yeah, I too wonder why the teams didn't communictae. Let me send you a link to H4 writer interview, where he said there was a lack of communication between teams. As a fun fact, the writer has basically done most of the H4 lore.

EDIT: I think it was this one: Lost Tales

Yeah, MM Universe has lots of lacks and contradictions, due to many writers and such. This is one thing I didn't like.
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted May 16, 2020 11:59 AM
Edited by dj at 12:01, 16 May 2020.

FirePaladin said:
And at the same time they too destroy the fauna and flora (at least the Kreegans). So they achieve kinda nothing in the end, only one more empty planet from which to suck the energy for themselves.


But like I said above, would you rather have a sack full of rotten tomatoes or throw the rotten ones and keep fresh and free of rot the remaining ones?

Keep in mind that there might be a multitude of Kreegan factions as well.
1. Kreegans who fight the recurring races
2. Kreegans who fight kreegans
3. Kreegans who fight FOR recurring races

Their age spans over eons of time so anything is possible.

In the end, to understand this, you have to free yourself from the perspective of seeing the recurring races as the protagonists/the good ones. You just make yourself be the objective observer of the events.

In addition, please see the internal conflicts of the characters of Heroes of Might and Magic, who are full of compassion and reason. It makes you wonder whether they really are the bad guys here and whether we, as players, have been lead (wrongly) to believe that the humans and elves are the good ones up until now.



Quote:
The ancient civilizations described evil "outer gods", which are similar to demons, and "great-winged beings which could teleport/travel between worlds", similar to Angels (they also described golden flying things with extremely powerful armament, like ships). And in Christian religion, we never get confirmation if demons are aliens or not, so we can't say they aren't either.


I have studied very little religious literature, but i am pretty sure that hell is associated with down there ('cast down to hell'), to grave (below earth) and underground. and that in the testaments. Correct me if im wrong

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


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posted May 16, 2020 12:11 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 12:26, 16 May 2020.

Quote:
The ancient civilizations described evil "outer gods", which are similar to demons, and "great-winged beings which could teleport/travel between worlds", similar to Angels (they also described golden flying things with extremely powerful armament, like ships). And in Christian religion, we never get confirmation if demons are aliens or not, so we can't say they aren't either.


I have studied very little religious literature, but i am pretty sure that hell is associated with down there ('cast down to hell'), to grave (below earth) and underground. and that in the testaments. Correct me if im wrong


Well, I just said what I know. Nobody said there wasn't a demon base/prison inside the Earth's core or anything along these lines, or a parallel dimension there.

Oh, there is also the so-called "Creator's Wars", preceding the human era, a thing similar to Ancients VS Kreegans in MM. Most religions have it (including popular ones like Greek, Norse, etc.).


I get what you want to say with the Kreegans, but their solution is still extreme. The tomatoes could be only a little "uglier and full of "scratches", etc." instead, not to the Kreegan's liking, just like the modern human doesn't like an apple which is a bit hit, or a little softer than usual, etc.
I also never thought of a race as protagonist, but I believe at least Kreegans are meant to be somewhat evil, overall, as a race, compared to let's say, all other races. Basically more % of Kreegans are bloodthirsty and such, compared to the those other races.
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dj
dj


Promising
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Always loyal to HC
posted May 16, 2020 12:28 PM

My concern is not that they were the first in the world to use demons as aliens, but the first in the gaming industry/literature. And that spotlight (and the success) might have been stolen from them.



Ok, let me show you one more thing about the real good and the real evil here. I wanted to save it for later, but it is a very good time to show it now.

Please read the following text from the Heroes of Might and Magic IV Game Manual:



‘The Dream
I had a dream last night for the first time in over eight hundred years, and I am afraid my dream might be true…
In a dark tow er , floating in the nothingness at the end of time, Fat e li v es . She is an enigma. She has the eyes of an elder who has seen too much, the voluptuous body of a woman grown, and the innocent smile of a happy child. She is alone. No man, elf, demon or god survi v ed whatever calamity brought about the end of ever y t h i n g .
Fate gets up from the dinner table where there is only a single chair , and ascends a small staircase that will take her to the top of the tower. Her feet are bare against the cold stone, and I shiver, for unforgiving rock is all that her flesh has ever known.
She is stunningly beautiful, I decide, although I cannot determine what she is wearing because her image shimmers before me.
Finally, she reaches her destination – a simple room with a huge, glass loom and a stool. She stares at the loom solemnly. She hesitates. But Fate knows she cannot wait forever and sits at the chair.
Methodically, she chooses a ball of black yarn from a bag at her feet and she frowns. She threads it into the loom, and then selects another ball. This one is purple, and her frown deepens. A tear forms in one eye as she threads it into the loom as well.
One by one, she chooses more yarn and attaches it to the loom. Next blue, then red, then green, and finally orange.
Then her hands work furiously, pulling and twisting and spinning, as she begins weaving a tapestry. I desperately want to see the images formed by her craft, but my vision blurs every time I try. So I look at her face instead, and notice her single tear has become many.
Fate doesn’t want to weave this pattern, but she continues anyway. It is her destiny – her purpose…
And that is how it ends.
I am not a genie prone to premonitions, but I find it difficult to believe this was only a dream. Please, pray that I am wrong!
– Solymr ibn Wali Barad’


The intriguing lines in this text are the following:


Methodically, she chooses a ball of black yarn from a bag at her feet and she frowns. She threads it into the loom, and then selects another ball. This one is purple, and her frown deepens. A tear forms in one eye as she threads it into the loom as well.

Ok. So first of all. She looks exactly like the Oracle from the Life campaign in Heroes of Might and Magic IV. The description is stunningly simmilar. Oracles are creations of the Gods (of Life and Order). My presumtion is that she is an Oracle or a Wrydes. Anyway, either Godly creation or their slave or maybe something even higher than these humans that achieved the God status.


When she picks the purple thread (Life, see how the entire human faction is represented by purple, not yellow nor white), her frown deepens. Why then? Why not at Chaos (orange)? Death (black) ? Order (blue)? Nature (green)? Might (red) ? Isnt it because she knows what Life really stands for? What is their end and purpose?

It is a secret that the Kreegans most likely know. And no wonder that they look and behave like this. Hunting and going for a futile achievement makes you go crazy!


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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


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posted May 16, 2020 12:46 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 13:00, 16 May 2020.

In the end, she does still use all balls and starts having her face covered in tears, so... But we might never know. In fact, almost all plot writers in MM have done what they wanted themselves, fleshing their ideas around the overall plot and getting their story accepted into the game, regardless of the deep meaning or not.

And saying it like that, then what if in MM life is an imprisonment from a higher state of being (and the Kreegans know that)? And what if it cannot be achieved only by simply dying?
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted May 16, 2020 01:04 PM
Edited by dj at 13:12, 16 May 2020.

FirePaladin said:
In the end, she does still use all balls and start having her face covered in tears, so... But we might never know. In fact, almost all plot writers in MM have done what they wanted themselves.


The author wanted the reader to associate purple with her frowning. She could have frowned since the black thread, meaning that she has to start her work again for the 1000000th time. But the author specifically wanted that purple to be the cause of her misery (deep frown and tears) and not the other threads.

And the author not even specifies that purple is Life. The player has to unravel this information in the game, seeing the colors of the factions. This is a subtle information, it is too well thought and well done for a game with two teams that failed to cooperate. I dont buy what they said in the interview. I might be delusional but it just doesnt make sense.

Quote:
And saying it like that, then what if in MM life is an imprisonment from a higher state of being (and the Kreegans know that)? And what if it cannot be achieved only by simply dying?


Technically, nor Life nor Death are the salvation, but Nature (Magic?) and Might, which are the 'pure' gods who got corrupted by the cycle of Life and Death and rules of Order and Chaos. We see in HoMM 4 that Gauldoth Half-Dead is very in touch with Nature, as if Death becomes more empathetic, forgiving and more 'good' through Nature.



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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


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posted May 16, 2020 01:20 PM

I kinda meant something else, like with them being in a simulated world and such, put there by the Ancients for unknown reasons.

Well, in my edited post I explained that the writers fleshed their story around the overall plot and such, but I didn't say it doesn't "work" together or isn't developed by more people. What I know is, that HoMM writers usually didn't collaborate with MM writers.
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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


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posted May 16, 2020 07:56 PM

Before Kreegans landed on MM6-8/Heroes 1-3 planet, demons were literally Christian like hell creatures. Even tho, Chronicles, make cheap way of showing history, using Inferno, Necropolis and Dungeon as Underworld demon species.

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evildustructor
evildustructor


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posted May 17, 2020 11:10 PM

interesting theory about the kreegans, makes sense tho since theyre completely capable of intelligent communication in the h3 campaigns where they ally with nighon/deyja as well as when they settle in peace in h4. was there any clarification from the nwc team from back in the day/as of recently if the kreegans were truly evil?

(mm7 spoilers) just played the mm games recently 6-8 and im pretty curious whats gonna happen with archibalds advisors from mm3 (considering hota canon here ) pretty stoked to know what theyre gonna do about the fate of kastore and the other two since they pretty much went underground right? The ending just said that resurectra and the other three would "fend them off" or something similar and now at least kastore is alive, cant recall if they ever were mentioned after the ending

just having a wild theory here, Thinking the reckoning would happen since their originally planned universe was cancelled after the forge was cancelled - as in, the gate to the other worlds is removed and the story would start anew in axeoth. Since the forges were supposed to be destroyed by queen catherine, but the major powers of enroth would have no motive to destroy the stargate. i mean, good alignments want it to exist, factions in jadame are either aligned with the good side after the alliance or simply too uninterested in it like regnans/necromantic order, why would they seek to destroy it? i mean, the sword of frost was easy to make a quick story about since the vori were largely mysterious, it feels like the stargate from the good ending wasnt really intended to happen and then the reckoning happened since nwc were pressed monetarily


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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted May 20, 2020 10:00 AM

zmudziak22 said:
Before Kreegans landed on MM6-8/Heroes 1-3 planet, demons were literally Christian like hell creatures. Even tho, Chronicles, make cheap way of showing history, using Inferno, Necropolis and Dungeon as Underworld demon species.


Yes, apparently they lived in the underworld for some time. The Kreegans invaded the planet before once. They were defeated by the Gryphonhearts and probably fell back to the underground, the only logical place they could roam freely.

But their origin is still E.E. (extraenrothian).

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